« previous   misc   next »

Federal Spending Per Non-Government Worker


By Mish   Follow   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 11:22am PDT   1,224 views   49 comments   Watch (1)   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (3)   Dislike (1)  

Federal Spending Per Non-Government Worker
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2013/03/federal-spending-per-non-government.html
Mish

« First     « Previous     Comments 10-49 of 49     Last »

Bellingham Bill   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 3:37pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 10

murakami says

So perhaps someone can suggest where all of this new money is going to come from?

I already did:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CP

Here's corporate taxation added in red:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=gSn

watch it and learn:

Reality   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 3:41pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like (2)   Dislike     Comment 11

marcus says

But it would mean that our short little run of being the great experiment, or the "shining city on the hill" is basically over.

The great experiment started as an anti-tax movement: a revolt against a 3% stamp tax on bills and documents, and a revolt against tariffs on tea.

It's over when the European continental style government-run education managed to convince a substantial cross section of the population that the solution to life's problems is not individuals exercising independent choices and finding new creative solutions but should give way to government taxation and let the government bureaucrats spend as they see fit! That's how a free people give rise to a new aristocracy and enslave themselves.

Bellingham Bill   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 3:43pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like (2)   Dislike     Comment 12

marcus says

Another genius with a deep understanding of what going on.

It's like the 2001-2009 period is a blank for them.

NONE - ZERO - NIL understanding of the immense fraud that went on when their boys were running things, especially 2003-2006.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=gSo

Per-worker consumer debt take-on, 2012 dollars.

We had a great economy during the 2nd Bush term, floated on a sea of ponzi finance fraud.

That all ended in 2007, and we would have crashed like Greece if it weren't for all the printing and extend-and-pretend.

This nation is utterly corrupt and the right wing's bullshit is the root cause.

Point to a problem, and they've made it worse.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/FDEFX

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/NETEXP

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=gSp

Morons to the last man.

Bellingham Bill   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 3:45pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like (2)   Dislike (1)     Comment 13

Reality says

The great experiment started

Captain Rightwing Bullshit rides in!

Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Germany are kicking our ass economically and socially.

Your screwed up worldview is incapable of understanding why.

It's the bullshit, stupid.

You have no answer to why 5% of this nation -- one out of twenty -- is collecting over one third the national income.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2012

You think that's good -- Freedom! -- you want to see 1% own it all.

Moron.

Reality   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 3:47pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 14

Bellingham Bill says

That all ended in 2007, and we would have crashed like Greece if it weren't for all the printing and extend-and-pretend.

Greece has been the poster child of printing and extend-and-pretend. Iceland is where the game was cut short, and they are already recovering.

marcus   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 3:48pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 15

Reality says

the solution to life's problems is not individuals exercising independent choices and finding new creative solutions but should give way to government taxation and let the government bureaucrats spend as they see fit! That's how a free people give rise to a new aristocracy and enslave themselves.

Then how do you explain the increase in wealth disparity, and all indications of a new aristocracy on the rise, with an ever diminishing middle class, all occurring while tax rates have been dropping for the past 30 years ?

Coincidence perhaps ?

Reality   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 3:49pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 16

Bellingham Bill says

Reality says

The great experiment started

Captain Rightwing Bullshit rides in!

Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Germany are kicking our ass economically and socially.

Since when did the "great experiment" of founding the Unites States as "the shining light on the hill" include Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Germany?

justme   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 3:50pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like (2)   Dislike     Comment 17

marcus says

Be serious Mish. You have a brain that is capable of independent thought. Don't worry, you might pick up some intelligent clients who respect the truth.

Mish is otherwise pretty reasonable but he is seriously inflicted with right-wing bullshit. Similar to Karl Denninger. Smart guy, but impaired by right-wing "logic". Denninger is too verbose for me, though. He can't seem to get to the point without a load of roundabout prattle worthy of a daytime talkshow.

Reality   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 3:52pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 18

Bellingham Bill says

You have no answer to why 5% of this nation -- one out of twenty -- is collecting over one third the national income.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2012

You think that's good -- Freedom! -- you want to see 1% own it all.

Moron.

The answer is quite simple: the fiat money power rigging the game in favor of the insiders at the expense of the rest of the population.

Inflation: giving money to the insiders;
Deflation/austerity: taking money from the rest of the us.

It doesn't take many cycles to impoverish the middle class, and concentrate wealth into the hands of the few.

marcus   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 3:52pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 19

Reality says

Since when did the "great experiment" of founding the Unites States as "the shining light on the hill" include Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Germany?

Reality isn't going to respond to BBill's points which were very clear. He can't. He doesn't want to go there.

Reality says

t's over when the European continental style government-run education managed to convince a substantial cross section of the population that the solution to life's problems is not individuals exercising independent choices and finding new creative solutions but should give way to government taxation and let the government bureaucrats spend as they see fit! That's how a free people give rise to a new aristocracy and enslave themselves.

Bellingham Bill says

Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Germany are kicking our ass economically and socially.

Your screwed up worldview is incapable of understanding why.

justme   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 3:55pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 20

marcus says

Only when we pay for what we spend will we ever be able to get spending under control. This is not rocket science.

IT'S CALLED PAYING YOUR BILLS !!!

Right on!! Increase taxes until the wealthy pay the same effective rate as the middle class. Then, when the debt is paid off and the deficit is zero, people will start understanding the cost of wasteful spending, such as medicare giveaways to big pharma and insane and illegal wars.

There is a timing problem with doing it now because the private sector is so indebted (is it still circa 3.3X GDP?). They should have done it in 1985 and kept it going.

Reality   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 3:55pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 21

marcus says

Reality says

Since when did the "great experiment" of founding the Unites States as "the shining light on the hill" include Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Germany?

Reality isn't going to respond to BBill's points which were very clear. He can't. He doesn't want to go there.

You are wrong again. I already responded in a separate post just before yours showed up.

Bellingham Bill   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 3:58pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 22

Reality says

include Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Germany?

Prior to 1900 we had half a continent -- the good half -- free for the taking.

And we did.

Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Germany were all filled in 500 years ago, and actually sent many immigrants our way to build out our economy.

But since they were more socially developed than us, they also have more experience with The Socialism, and have been developing it for 150+ years.

We didn't have to have The Socialism since we had all that natural wealth to develop, but once the Wild West was tamed, The Socialism started to catch on here.

It was Populism first, then Progressivism. You might remember Teddy Roosevelt, he saw the need for The Socialism and finished 2nd, ahead of your boy in the 1912 election.

The Progressive Party platform of 1912 is good reading, I suggest you find it and learn what bullshit problems caused by unrestrained "free-market" richman corporatism the country was facing then.

WW I came around, and the rise of electro-mechanical wealth creation gave our system another shot in the arm, until it all crashed in 1929-30 due to too much debt expansion and malinvestment.

The Socialism came back, and stayed for 30-40 years, until that crook Nixon and then Ronnie Raygun started replacing Socialism with borrow & spend Corporatism.

Meanwhile, since the eurosocialists recovered from Too Much Socialism (and bubble mentaliity), they've been doing very well for themselves and have a lot to teach us about how to order a society such that everyone has a fair shot to develop and remain productive members of it (without going $100,000+ into debt).

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/TCMDODNS

FAIL

http://current.com/community/94027080_worlds-happiest-countries-most-are-borderline-socialist-countrys.htm

marcus   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 3:59pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 23

Reality says

You are wrong again. I already responded in a separate post just before yours showed up.

Yes. And you aren't completely wrong there. But how do you reconcile these ?
Reality says

t's over when the European continental style government-run education managed to convince a substantial cross section of the population that the solution to life's problems is not individuals exercising independent choices and finding new creative solutions but should give way to government taxation and let the government bureaucrats spend as they see fit! That's how a free people give rise to a new aristocracy and enslave themselves.

Bellingham Bill says

Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Germany are kicking our ass economically and socially.

Your screwed up worldview is incapable of understanding why.

Reality   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 4:07pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 24

Bellingham Bill,

Is this the new Socialist Manifesto?

It would be just as wrong-headed as every socialist experiment before. At least this time you are recognizing "Too Much Socialism" is a bad thing.

In any case, Sweden is still enjoying the benefit of market-oriented reforms since they scaled back on socialism (similar to the Eastern bloc).

Norway is living off oil wealth in the North Sea, for a country that has less population than a single large city in the US, that's a lot of money per head.

Denmark is enjoying tight economic coupling with Germany, which is benefiting from the liberalization of former East Germany.

The only benefit of socialism seems to be like a wild fire that burns down everything, so the generation growing up after the disaster can have more rapid economic growth.

Bellingham Bill   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 4:08pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 25

justme says

There is a timing problem with doing it now because the private sector is so indebted (is it still circa 3.3X GDP

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=gSr

shows we are about halfway through the private deleveraging process.

Unfortunately:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=gSs

the red line shows we're just replacing gov't debt for private debt take-on.

We want to have our cake and eat it too, just like the Japanese.

Unlike the Japanese, we also have a horrendous NIIP and trade deficit.

(Japan is $3T in the black while we're $3T in the hole, NIIP-wise, and their per-capita trade deficit is tens of dollars a month while ours is hundreds).

I think we really need to close our trade deficit, and if anyone has a better idea other than outprinting the rest of the world I'm all ears.

Reality   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 4:11pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 26

marcus says

Yes. And you aren't completely wrong there. But how do you reconcile these ?

Because the typical socialists praising Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Germany now are just as silly as those who praised:

Soviet Union in the 1920's,
Italian Fascist "third way" in the late 1920's,
Germany in the 1930's,
Japan in the 1980's,
Sweden in the 1980's,
China more recently

They just can't pass up an opportunity praising transient central-planning countries burning candle from both ends, and history proves them wrong every single time!

Bellingham Bill   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 4:12pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 27

Reality says

since they scaled back on socialism (similar to the Eastern bloc).

bullshit.

Norway could be a shithole like the mideast or Alberta, but it is not. Socialism is working well there, and while their $15k/capita wealth inflow from oil is a nice tailwind, we actually have a similar scale of natural wealth, we just don't "share" the rents from it it like they do.

Instead, we've let a very long list of rich shitheads privitise the public's wealth, from Rockefeller on down.

Denmark is enjoying tight economic coupling with Germany, which is benefiting from the liberalization of former East Germany.

LOL. East Germany was an economic basket case and has held Germany back.

You do not understand anything other than your pinched worldview.

Whatever. Arguing on the internet isn't going to change anything, people are going to have to learn the hard way.

Reality   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 4:18pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 28

Bellingham Bill says

while their $15k/capita wealth inflow from oil is a nice tailwind, we actually have a similar scale of natural wealth, we just don't "share" the rents from it it like they do.

Norwegian oil export account for almost 50% of total export, and more than 20% of total GDP. What natural resource export from the US is comparable to that?

Bellingham Bill says

LOL. East Germany was an economic basket case and has held Germany back.

You do not understand anything other than your pinched worldview.

Laugh at yourself in the mirror please. The investment opportunity in what used to be East Germany is what has been driving German economy in recent years. It's no different from the rapid economic growth in all those former Eastern Bloc countries that had previously been basket cases. Just look at those brand new VW, Mercedes and BMW factories around Leipzig; it's similar to GM investing in China more than a decade ago.

Vicente   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 4:20pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 29

Reality says

The great experiment started as an anti-tax movement: a revolt against a 3% stamp tax on bills and documents, and a revolt against tariffs on tea.

Revisionist history.

The "Boston Tea Party" wasn't about the tax itself, it was about a corporation that had evaded the tax and thus had an unfair advantange over domestic producers. Whose tea were the original Tea Partiers throwing in the harbor? Not random domestic tea, it was specifically product of the British East India Company.

Generally speaking a lot of American Revolutionaries weren't anti-tax nutters like Rand Paul & Co. They were against being always on the losing end of the bargain as mere "colonists" with no representation meanwhile favored British corporations got all the influence and paid little or nothing.

Reality   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 4:28pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 30

Vicente says

The "Boston Tea Party" wasn't about the tax itself, it was about a corporation that had evaded the tax and thus had an unfair advantange over domestic producers.

Is this a joke? What domestic tea producer was there?

Whose Tea were the original Tea Partiers throwing in the harbor? Not random domestic tea, it was specifically product of the British East India Company.

BEIC had a government license to ship tea from India and China as a government sanctioned monopoly. Their primary competition in the market place were the smugglers who also shipped tea from India and China.

Generally speaking a lot of American Revolutionaries weren't anti-tax nutters like Rand Paul & Co. They were against being always on the losing end of the bargain as mere "colonists" with no representation meanwhile favored British corporations got all the influence and paid virtually nothing. It was about fairness.

Talk about revisionism. "No taxation without representation" was used as a slogan, but British offer to let colonials have representation was rejected. The colonials just didn't feel like to be taxed to pay for an empire.

marcus   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 4:31pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like (2)   Dislike (1)     Comment 31

When I imagine a future where things are economically and socially as good and as sustainable as they possibly can be, it so obviously includes a fair amount of what often gets labelled as socialism.

That is substantial government involvement in domains where private profit motive simply don't belong. This includes public safety, regulating business, local public services, the military and coast guard, public education, yes health care, and providing safety nets for those who are simply unable to adequately take care of themselves.

This isn't really socialism, but if we call it that, then we know that some mix of this with free enterprise market based economics is best.

Even the right wingers must know that this is true and inevitable. And true conservatives also know that crony capitalism is part of what plagues both political parties, but more so the right wing.

thomaswong.1986   befriend   ignore   Mon, 25 Mar 2013, 4:33pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 32

Vicente says

Revisionist history.

The "Boston Tea Party" wasn't about the tax itself, it

It was a tax to pay for the French Indian War.. the rest of what you said was rubbish anti-corp nonsense. the tax was levied on the US colonist without their say on the matter. The tax was not levied on the British back home.

Reality   befriend   ignore   Tue, 26 Mar 2013, 12:47am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 33

marcus says

When I imagine a future where things are economically and socially as good and as sustainable as they possibly can be, it so obviously includes a fair amount of what often gets labelled as socialism.

Then it will never get there to begin with, and socialism will destroy what economic capital the society has accummulated in previous generations. That has happened every time Socialism is attempted. What's that Einstein saying? Insanity is repeatedly attempting that which has failed and hope the next time will be different.

This topic is not at all new. Fedric Bastiat addressed the issue over a century and half ago, on the technology progress bringing higher standards living to all vs. the government monopolistic rent seekers trying to seize the increased productivity for their own exclusive benefit, in the name of "Socialism." Here is an interesting article on the subject:

http://fff.org/explore-freedom/article/tgif-socializing-wealth/

mell   befriend   ignore   Tue, 26 Mar 2013, 1:06am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 34

Germany is less socialistic than the US these days in a couple of areas, the housing market is one of them. No government guaranteed bullshit loans, no Fannie or Freddie or FHA.

david1   befriend   ignore   Tue, 26 Mar 2013, 1:33am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 35

mell says

Germany is less socialistic than the US

None that count.

Germans understand that taxes are a burden on those people whose incomes generate prosperity.

We all know that. They, however, have less of a problem determining which incomes generate properity and which incomes generate nothing but additional rents.

The Germans also kick our ass in the understanding that the economic and political goal should be a solid level of social security BALANCED with the highest possible economic prosperity.

To put it another way, if the economic prosperity we currently have in the US is maximized at our current level of social security, to sacrifice social security for further economic prosperity is not progress.

One cancels the other.

mell   befriend   ignore   Tue, 26 Mar 2013, 1:43am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 36

david1 says

To put it another way, if the economic prosperity we currently have in the US is maximized at our current level of social security, to sacrifice social security for further economic prosperity is not progress.

One cancels the other.

Sure, but more importantly all these programs are well funded in the sense that everybody understands and agrees to pay in from day one and if costs rise cuts will be made, even for seniors and pension growth is frozen (hence you mentioned BALANCED). So it's a zero sum game and only the money collected can be spent. It matters that you have all these fraudulent get rich quick schemes in the US because here the money will be extracted beforehand by private entities and the resulting losses will be sociali