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Lamorinda Home Prices Back Above Peak Levels


By gregpfielding   Follow   Wed, 17 Apr 2013, 5:25am PDT   2,053 views   69 comments
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It won’t show in the data yet because the “pendings” haven’t closed. Many are closing for 100K or more over their asking prices, pushing the market price of properties in Lafayette, Moraga, and Orinda up above the previous 2006-2007 peaks.

See the examples... http://www.bayarearealestatetrends.com/2013/04/lamorinda-home-prices-back-above-peak-levels/

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APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch   Sun, 21 Apr 2013, 6:43am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (4)   Dislike     Comment 30

That's great. You can walk away from every sale cackling at your latest victim, "Here are the keys, fuckface. You'd never catch me buying a house in this market, much less like the shambolic shithouse you're moving into."

RentingForHalfTheCost   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 2:09am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 31

robertoaribas says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Iwog, yes I was wrong about housing in the last 2 years. But my point is the reason I was wrong actually helped my investments far more tha real estate would. In that case I love being wrong. ;).

yeah, those grapes are probably sour anyway, said the fox.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Fundamentals of our personal, state and national debt all point in that direction. When it happens I'm sure you will be here saying how you saw it coming all along in your phoney way.

so you start a post about how you were completely butt ass wrong; then turn it into "but I will eventually be right someday, and you will lie about it when it happens..."

DOUCHE BAG!!!!!

So you just negative everything I say. Back at yah.

RentingForHalfTheCost   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 2:11am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 32

iwog says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

When it happens I'm sure you will be here saying how you saw it coming all along in your phoney way.

That's not how I operate. I don't change screen names and most of my investments are out in the open real time, success or failure. You should try it sometime and tell people what you are invested in NOW instead of after the fact.

Jeez, you don't even need to make any educated guess. Put money in the indexes these last few years. More than housing it has been only one way. Up. Free money means everything is beautiful. At least until it isn't. Housing will be the first to lose the seat IMHO. I have had at least 50% of my holdings (dependant on the price of gold) in the S&P and continue to hold about that since I sold my overpriced piece of junk SFBA home in 2009. Lets talk again in 2015-2016.

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=SPY+Interactive#symbol=spy;range=5y;compare=;indicator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;

iwog   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 4:03am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 33

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Jeez, you don't even need to make any educated guess. Put money in the indexes these last few years. More than housing it has been only one way. Up.

Works great if you have a time machine.

I'm invested in the stock market however you don't seem to understand how leverage works. My first four real estate purchases cost me $0. They were 100% financed. Most people have around 5 to 1 leverage in real estate. The best you can do in the stock market is 2:1.

Now I'm not going to advocate heavy margins in the stock market, however for you to claim that you did better not owning real estate from 2009 to 2013 is absurd. An 80% LTV mortgage on a SFBA home with the proceeds invested in the stock market from 2009 onward was the best strategy. Probably 4 times better than what you did.

I consider 2009 the bottom. You followed the herd and sold when everyone else did.

RentingForHalfTheCost   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 4:39am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 34

iwog says

you don't seem to understand how leverage works.

I understand how leverage works more than you. Your 5 to 1 works both ways. If you feel comfortable with that in and out of your favor then you have a riskier approach than me. I have no debt, never had debt and never will have debt. Period. True wealth IMHO comes from my career and my steadfast belief in the future. I don't need a home run, single and doubles will do just fine. I plan to be here a long time. You can have your 4 times, good for you. I could liquidate now and buy back the home I sold in 2009 and then buy another home. That is enough for me. Good for me too. ;)

It might have been the bottom 2009-2010 but it still is dead money. Money worked much better in many other places than real estate.

iwog   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 6:28am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 35

RentingForHalfTheCost says

I understand how leverage works more than you. Your 5 to 1 works both ways.

I caught you lying about covered options and I'm pretty sure you're not being honest now.

The bottom line is that the stock market has been an excellent play from 2009 onward. I never said otherwise and I've been invested in the ride.

However every time you call real estate investing "dead money", you're exposing yourself as ignorant and short sighted. I'm constantly amazed at how people who called this market so horribly wrong, who's predictions ended in utter failure, CONTINUE to be arrogant blowhards. How the hell are you ever going to learn anything when you're right even when you're wrong?

RentingForHalfTheCost   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 7:50am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 36

robertoaribas says

I took 20K more out of my home than I paid for it, and my mortgage is STILL way less than what rent would be.

what % leverage is that?

Lucky leverage. There is another flavour and hopefully, you don't ever feel it. I know many in the SFBA that are making over $200K/yr as a family and are pretty much broke. They do live in a nice cottage though.

iwog   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 7:55am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 37

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Lucky leverage. There is another flavour and hopefully, you don't ever feel it. I know many in the SFBA that are making over $200K/yr as a family and are pretty much broke. They do live in a nice cottage though.

Sooooo let me get this straight. You PERSONALLY know people making three (yes THREE) times the median household income in San Jose, and they are pretty much broke.

The more I read coming from you, the more I'm convinced you couldn't tell the truth to save your life. EVERYTHING, from the rents in Pleasanton I caught you lying about to the covered calls on MCD I caught you lying about to your fictional broke friends making over $200k a year, EVERYTHING you type here is pulled straight out of your ass.

http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/american_community_survey_acs/cb12-r10.html

iwog   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 8:04am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 38

I'm sick of the endless bullshit coming from RFHTC and the fabricated "data" he keeps throwing out there. Here's what he said in January 2013:

RentingForHalfTheCost says

I just did, (research rents) and "Rents are falling for SFH in the bay area. Rents are falling for SFH in the bay area. " It will really suck to be a landlord and see your equity dry up again while rents are falling drastically. Yup, this is my prediction for this hell hole of a place.

Here was the headline last week:

Rents in Bay Area jump by single digits
http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_23031693/rents-bay-area-jump-by-single-digits

After slowing at the end of the year, Bay Area rents jumped 6 to 8 percent in the first quarter of the year compared with the same time in 2012, according to a report released Monday.

RentingForHalfTheCost   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 9:23am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 39

iwog says

Sooooo let me get this straight. You PERSONALLY know people making three (yes THREE) times the median household income in San Jose, and they are pretty much broke.

Yup. Many have lost their homes or trapped in their homes. And I mean many. They all were part of the rush to buy into the hype during 2006-2007. Taxes alone drain them. And, they don't live in San Jose, most are in Mountain View, Palo Alto, Los Altos, etc. 1m+ homes. They believed the realtors.

RentingForHalfTheCost   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 9:24am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 40

iwog says

I'm sick of the endless bullshit coming from RFHTC and the fabricated "data" he keeps throwing out there. Here's what he said in January 2013:

There is an ignore if you can't take the truth.

RentingForHalfTheCost   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 9:24am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 41

iwog says

Here was the headline last week:

Rents in Bay Area jump by single digits

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_23031693/rents-bay-area-jump-by-single-digits

Yup, Mercury News. There is a place that doesn't make any profits from the real estate ride. Jeez, get a clue.

iwog   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 9:28am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 42

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Yup, Mercury News. There is a place that doesn't make any profits from the real estate ride. Jeez, get a clue.

Gotcha. Real data from probably the most respectable California newspaper is always inferior and a lie. Random claims totally lacking data or even links and examples from a stranger on the internet? Gospel truth.

Thanks for the clarification.

RentingForHalfTheCost   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 9:31am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 43

iwog says

Real data from probably the most respectable California newspaper

LOL

RentingForHalfTheCost   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 9:43am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 44

iwog says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Yup, Mercury News. There is a place that doesn't make any profits from the real estate ride. Jeez, get a clue.

Gotcha. Real data from probably the most respectable California newspaper is always inferior and a lie. Random claims totally lacking data or even links and examples from a stranger on the internet? Gospel truth.

Thanks for the clarification.

Even the Merc is moving out of the area. LOL

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20130416/WIRE/130419668

They will keep reporting that people should leverage as much as they can and jump on the debt wagon, just cause that sells papers. No homeowner wants to pay for the truth out there. They want to read the paper and feel themselves get virtual rich. Even if it is not true.

iwog   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 9:50am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 45

RentingForHalfTheCost says

They will keep reporting that people should leverage as much as they can and jump on the debt wagon, just cause that sells papers. No homeowner wants to pay for the truth out there. They want to read the paper and feel themselves get virtual rich. Even if it is not true.

Obviously your NOTHING pulled out of your ass and totally lacking references, data, or even a link trumps anything else that is actually published and subject to examination.

Right?

RentingForHalfTheCost   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 9:52am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 46

iwog says

The more I read coming from you, the more I'm convinced you couldn't tell the truth to save your life. EVERYTHING, from the rents in Pleasanton I caught you lying about to the covered calls on MCD I caught you lying about to your fictional broke friends making over $200k a year, EVERYTHING you type here is pulled straight out of your ass.

Must have missed all then amazing things you did. My rent is down, friends rents are down. My MCD and INTC covered calls are working as usual, even more so this quarter. Keep catching me out while my non-real estate holding grow and your pile of wood ages and decays. I might use it for firewood if we have a hard winter around here. Let me know how much for a pickup truck full of the junk.

RentingForHalfTheCost   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 10:05am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 47

iwog says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

They will keep reporting that people should leverage as much as they can and jump on the debt wagon, just cause that sells papers. No homeowner wants to pay for the truth out there. They want to read the paper and feel themselves get virtual rich. Even if it is not true.

Obviously your NOTHING pulled out of your ass and totally lacking references, data, or even a link trumps anything else that is actually published and subject to examination.

Right?

Please explain who examines a Newspaper article? Anyone that has a bonus on the Newspapers earnings perhaps? I wonder.

iwog   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 10:06am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 48

RentingForHalfTheCost says

My rent is down, friends rents are down.

The problem is I pulled up actual rents from actual web pages years back and proved you were full of shit. You provided nothing.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

My MCD and INTC covered calls are working as usual

The problem is I did an actual analysis of MCD and demonstrated how it actually LOST money in 2012 to which you responded with........nothing.

Again......you're a blowhard and when challenged with actually proving any of your statements, you run and hide like a scared rabbit.

iwog   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 10:07am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 49

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Please explain who examines a Newspaper article? Anyone that has a bonus on the Newspapers earnings perhaps? I wonder.

Again you claim your nothing trumps anyone else's something.

Fucking pathetic.

RentingForHalfTheCost   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 10:15am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 50

iwog says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Please explain who examines a Newspaper article? Anyone that has a bonus on the Newspapers earnings perhaps? I wonder.

Again you claim your nothing trumps anyone else's something.

Fucking pathetic.

Die Die Die! About time people wised up and stop reading the mainstream media trash. I'll buy the last copy of the Merc when it finally dies and roast some marsh mellows over it. The executives are a bunch of crooks. The actually workers are getting screwed by these punks.

http://capoliticalnews.com/2013/04/16/next-newspaper-on-chopping-block-san-jose-mercury-news/

adarmiento   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 10:15am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 51

"Many are closing for 100K or more over their asking prices, pushing the market price of properties in Lafayette, Moraga, and Orinda up above the previous 2006-2007 peaks."

Check Zillow.com and even the homes in the nicer parts of Oakland are at August 2004 price levels.

RentingForHalfTheCost   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 10:18am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 52

iwog says

The problem is I did an actual analysis of MCD and demonstrated how it actually LOST money in 2012 to which you responded with........nothing.

Nothing loses money if you know how to use covered calls to your advantage. Drops - I buy back the call, then sell again on strength while collecting the dividend. Steady - I keep selling calls and collect dividends, Rises - I already made my 2-3% for the quarter. I could give you the Coles notes on this if it is too complicated. I know it is above wood and nails so don't feel bad.

RentingForHalfTheCost   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 10:33am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 53

robertoaribas says

Problem with this, and why IWOG and I both know you are lying, is you eventually get burned... you buy a stock for 100, sell calls at 100, or 105 whatever, stock tanks to 80, you buy back your calls, resell calls at 80, stock goes back up to 100, and you just lost the stock, locked in a $20 equity loss, all for 2 call commissions.

You missed the sell call timing. You don't buy and the sell at the same price silly rabbit. Why would you even sell then. Sure, there is a downside, but your income from the original sell offsets the loss. Nothing at all is risk free, we are all just managing risk to minimize it. You two talk about housing like it has no downside. To me you are fools and will eventually get burned. You never listen and always just slam anyone that brings reason into your view. I wish you both well, just cause. But I wouldn't partner with you if my life depended on it. You are both too risky and talk like you are the holder of the truth, when you are far from it.

I understand put-call more than you know. I have been using it for decades now and profiting well. You should listen sometime to others, it might help your mind.

iwog   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 10:38am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 54

RentingForHalfTheCost says

I understand put-call more than you know.

Which explains why you claimed 6% returns on MCD in a year where MCD lost about 10% and then refused to explain how you managed it while running away from all my questions.

Again you believe your nothing trumps everyone else's something.

RentingForHalfTheCost   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 10:43am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 55

iwog says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

I understand put-call more than you know.

Which explains why you claimed 6% returns on MCD in a year where MCD lost about 10% and then refused to explain how you managed it while running away from all my questions.

Again you believe your nothing trumps everyone else's something.

Now you lie. I claimed 6% was easy to get with solid dividend paying companies (3-4% usually) and selling covered calls. Take your own advice there 4 times better than everyone else. Fools I tell yah.

Here is a snippet of that thread from me.

"You increase the calmness by using well established companies like MCD, PG, INTC, etc."

iwog   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 10:50am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 56

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Now you lie. I claimed 6% was easy to get with solid dividend paying companies (3-4% usually) and selling covered calls. Take your own advice there 4 times better than everyone else. Fools I tell yah.

It's so easy to get yet so impossible to say how you get it. I figured it out when I found out the best possible leap you could get with MCD was about 1.4% and you would have had it called AFTER A LOSS in 2012.

Again almost everything you post is bullshit.

RentingForHalfTheCost   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 11:26am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 57

iwog says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Now you lie. I claimed 6% was easy to get with solid dividend paying companies (3-4% usually) and selling covered calls. Take your own advice there 4 times better than everyone else. Fools I tell yah.

It's so easy to get yet so impossible to say how you get it. I figured it out when I found out the best possible leap you could get with MCD was about 1.4% and you would have had it called AFTER A LOSS in 2012.

Again almost everything you post is bullshit.

You are the idiot making time lines around my comments and then calculating your return so it is in your favor. Hope it feel good to you, cause it is laughable on my side. Good luck to you all the same. I kinda feel bad that you are so blinded. Nah

RentingForHalfTheCost   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 11:31am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 58

iwog says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Now you lie. I claimed 6% was easy to get with solid dividend paying companies (3-4% usually) and selling covered calls. Take your own advice there 4 times better than everyone else. Fools I tell yah.

It's so easy to get yet so impossible to say how you get it. I figured it out when I found out the best possible leap you could get with MCD was about 1.4% and you would have had it called AFTER A LOSS in 2012.

Again almost everything you post is bullshit.

BTW, while you and Roberto are so busy trying to find articles that show your virtual housing equity increasing, I made a cool 6-7% off Intel in the last 2 weeks alone. It is too easy with people like you swinging for the fences on everything sometimes. Sure and steady. You can have the 4x and the /4. I'd rather sleep well and get 1.1x each and every year with little to no worry. Also, no pesky tenant calls of clogged toilets and broken heaters.

iwog   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 11:39am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 59

RentingForHalfTheCost says

I'd rather sleep well and get 1.1x each and every year with little to no worry. Also, no pesky tenant calls of clogged toilets and broken heaters.

I don't care what you do, I just don't like liars and frauds. The only reason I talk about my real estate investments is that I linked them...........in 2009, 2010, and 2011. Same with gold. Same with oil. Real time, in advance, win or lose.

No one has any idea what you invest in because you only brag about it after the fact. You have never once given a preview of what you've spent money on. Very typical of a blowhard.

RentingForHalfTheCost   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 12:09pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 60

iwog says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

I'd rather sleep well and get 1.1x each and every year with little to no worry. Also, no pesky tenant calls of clogged toilets and broken heaters.

I don't care what you do, I just don't like liars and frauds. The only reason I talk about my real estate investments is that I linked them...........in 2009, 2010, and 2011. Same with gold. Same with oil. Real time, in advance, win or lose.

No one has any idea what you invest in because you only brag about it after the fact. You have never once given a preview of what you've spent money on. Very typical of a blowhard.

I said I was long INTC and selling covered calls on the last thread about three weeks ago. Nothing new here. I'll say it here now that I have over 100K invested in INTC right now. I keep stealing money from people by selling covered call and then buying them back for nothing. Are you the one buying? I can save you commission if you want to just paypal me your money. ;)

iwog   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 12:53pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 61

RentingForHalfTheCost says

I said I was long INTC and selling covered calls on the last thread about three weeks ago. Nothing new here. I'll say it here now that I have over 100K invested in INTC right now. I keep stealing money from people by selling covered call and then buying them back for nothing. Are you the one buying? I can save you commission if you want to just paypal me your money. ;)

Which covered calls are you short right now?

RentingForHalfTheCost   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 1:24pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 62

iwog says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

I said I was long INTC and selling covered calls on the last thread about three weeks ago. Nothing new here. I'll say it here now that I have over 100K invested in INTC right now. I keep stealing money from people by selling covered call and then buying them back for nothing. Are you the one buying? I can save you commission if you want to just paypal me your money. ;)

Which covered calls are you short right now?

Not sure I would call it short, cause I am bullish. My outstanding covered calls are with INTC, MSFT, CSCO, KO, HSY, SWY, and KRFT

Made a small fortune on SWY btw. I really should sell but doing a covered call is just a way to sneak out a bit more winnings before I unload.

Got a bunch called away recently which was awesome. You would say it was horrible, but your the reason why it works. Discipline is the game. Take advantage of the cesspool of GREED out there.

iwog   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 1:27pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 63

See what I mean? Let me try again:

What SPECIFIC covered calls are you short? (this is the position you take when you write a covered call) I don't want to know the security, I want to know what option you've sold. That way people can judge your competence, and not simply trust you when you say you make money.

RentingForHalfTheCost   Mon, 22 Apr 2013, 1:46pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 64

iwog says

See what I mean? Let me try again:

What SPECIFIC covered calls are you short? (this is the position you take when you write a covered call) I don't want to know the security, I want to know what option you've sold. That way people can judge your competence, and not simply trust you when you say you make money.

I'll post it tomorrow, time for bed as the little one is in need of a fairy tale. I think I'll tell her about this Iwog character that sees the world though broken lenses. ;)

Bigsby   Tue, 23 Apr 2013, 11:50am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 65

RentingForHalfTheCost says

iwog says

See what I mean? Let me try again:

What SPECIFIC covered calls are you short? (this is the position you take when you write a covered call) I don't want to know the security, I want to know what option you've sold. That way people can judge your competence, and not simply trust you when you say you make money.

I'll post it tomorrow, time for bed as the little one is in need of a fairy tale. I think I'll tell her about this Iwog character that sees the world though broken lenses. ;)

I make your tomorrow as being yesterday.

upisdown   Tue, 23 Apr 2013, 12:58pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 66

Bigsby says


I'll post it tomorrow, time for bed as the little one is in need of a fairy
tale. I think I'll tell her about this Iwog character that sees the world though
broken lenses. ;)


I make your tomorrow as being yesterday.

No, tomorrow never comes, and that's why it was worded that way. Keep waiting..............

Bigsby   Tue, 23 Apr 2013, 2:08pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 67

upisdown says

Bigsby says

I'll post it tomorrow, time for bed as the little one is in need of a fairy

tale. I think I'll tell her about this Iwog character that sees the world though

broken lenses. ;)

I make your tomorrow as being yesterday.

No, tomorrow never comes, and that's why it was worded that way. Keep waiting..............

I'd say he needs to post them up otherwise there's a fairly obvious conclusion to be drawn.

Bigsby   Wed, 24 Apr 2013, 1:57pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 68

RentingForHalfTheCost says

iwog says

See what I mean? Let me try again:

What SPECIFIC covered calls are you short? (this is the position you take when you write a covered call) I don't want to know the security, I want to know what option you've sold. That way people can judge your competence, and not simply trust you when you say you make money.

I'll post it tomorrow, time for bed as the little one is in need of a fairy tale. I think I'll tell her about this Iwog character that sees the world though broken lenses. ;)

I take it that you're never actually going to do this.

FunTime   Fri, 26 Apr 2013, 8:01am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 69

I don't think I've ever been to the places in the article. A co-worker lived in Danville, so I've heard of it.

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