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Meet the unelected body that will dictate future medical decisions.


By Vaticanus   Follow   Tue, 17 Nov 2009, 12:42pm PST   11,229 views   355 comments
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The Wall Street Journal calls it the "Health Care Rationing Commission"
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703792304574504020025055040.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Bureaucrats are already lining up to decide who gets what. Start saving now for that knee replacement! Even if you are only in your twenties. Chances are it won't be on this list of approved procedures. But at least we have change we can believe in.

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Vaticanus   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 8:23am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 316

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

The ones that are fascist I guess. We either see socialism or fascism in most governments today.

But I realize that you are just trying to distract us all from the fact that socialists want more socialism. You are trying to make us all forget that you don’t actually pay for the true cost of much of your own medicine. You like most Americans demand more care than you yourself are willing to pay for. And now you want to government (aka taxpayers) to pay for even more care.

The sad fact however is that we are already up to our neck in debt. We can’t afford it. We have not only run out of other people’s money but we continue to borrow from those stupid enough to lend.

straw man, anyone? It’s true that Socialists probably do want more Socialism. But Liberals aren’t Socialists. Nor are Democrats. Nor am I. So your argument is moot. And you’re missing the point–Universal Health Care has proven to be cheaper in every country that has adopted it. So it would help businesses compete with China and wouldn’t increase the debt.

So do you just want to make a bunch of straw men, or do you want to address whether or not you are for the health care bill mentioned in the article above which calls for a bureaucracy that will determine what is and isn't covered and how much the government will budget for health care each year?

¥   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 8:24am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 317

AdHominem says

Socialism is working well!

Population decline is generally a good thing; 2.0 babies per couple should be enough to provide everyone familial bliss.

Less people in a given area reduces stress on the environment. All things being equal, 10% less population means 11% more wealth for everyone. This is why I think Canada and Australia are going to do OK this century, they have continental-size natural resource bases with only 20-30M people each.

Japan may or may not have been socialist in the 20th century -- under LDP rule if anything it was the prototypical industrial-bureaucratic hybrid technocracy -- but regardless I think the population decline it is entering will result in a better society for all, with more worthwhile career opportunities opening for women and other people finding times difficult now.

Japan has horrendous underemployment for young people. Too many people, not enough opportunity for wealth-creation. These were the same demographic pressures that pushed Japan to repeatedly expand onto the continent.

¥   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 8:27am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 318

AdHominem says

are for the health care bill mentioned in the article above which calls for a bureaucracy that will determine what is and isn’t covered and how much the government will budget for health care each year?

All for it. Single Payer kicks the mish-mash mess we have now in any metric you care to name, and hopefully this bill is the first (or second) step towards Single Payer, or other government-controlled market, like what the Danish have established.

¥   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 8:35am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 319

AdHominem says

When those men who signed the Declaration pledged their lives, their fortunes, their sacred honor, they knew it could cost them everything. For some it did. But it was a risk they were willing to take. They chose freedom over “safety”, the “safety” of the British Empire.

Oh man you really put your foot into that with that. The men who signed the Declaration were nearly to a man wealthy landowners, and land speculation was the name of the game of the 18th and 19th centuries.

Washington himself was a surveyor-speculator. Land speculation bankrupted the financier of the revolution, Robert Morris, who spent years rotting in a debtors prison at the turn of the century. Daniel Boone was ruined financially speculating in Kentucky land, eventually prompting him to move to Missouri.

What I'm getting at with this is that your infantile ideology simply fails to understand that rentierism exists and thrives in any economic environment, and this rentierism -- getting something for nothing -- is corrupting and the source of great, great injustice.

Rentierism simply sucks all the "freedom" out of any economy, leaving a few haves owning everything and the multitudes as disempowered have-nots.

Nobody but wackaloon history-challenged American-exceptionalist romanticists, and paid AEI propagandists (but I repeat myself) -- think minarchy or libertarianism is any solution or a superior alternative to the modern mildly-socialist successes of eg. N Europe and Asia.

tatupu70   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 8:40am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 320

AdHominem says

So do you just want to make a bunch of straw men, or do you want to address whether or not you are for the health care bill mentioned in the article above which calls for a bureaucracy that will determine what is and isn’t covered and how much the government will budget for health care each year?

OK--all of the sudden you want to switch topics again? You're pretty good at that--especially when someone tries to pin you down..... But, I'll play along. I agree with Troy. This bill isn't ideal, but I support it as a step along the path to a single payer system.

bob2356   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 8:41am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 321

Actually Italy is growing. So is Greece, France, England, Ireland, Scotland, Austria, Spain, Sweden, Portugal, Belgium, Switzerland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Andorra, Macedonia, Bosnia, Netherlands, Serbia, Slovenia, Monaco, Andorra, Luxembourg, Denmark, Herzegovina, Vatican City, Macedonia.

Parts of eastern Europe are declining, along with Russia. Not surprising considering how wrecked these places were left after communism collapsed. Not to mention the Russian winter. They ARE flocking to the aforementioned European countries. Japan is actually about breaking even, also not surprising considering the age of the population and very strict immigration policies.

You really should try to work with something other than a set of carefully selected items selected solely to support your bias once and a while.

Vaticanus   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 8:51am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 322

bob2356 says

You really should try to work with something other than a set of carefully selected items selected solely to support your bias once and a while.

Funny, seeing as how no one ever does that. Obviously you are not a lawyer. More of an idealist?

Vaticanus   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 8:53am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 323

tatupu70 says

But, I’ll play along. I agree with Troy. This bill isn’t ideal, but I support it as a step along the path to a single payer system.

Thanks tatu. Nice to have a civilized comment and not just straw man and insults for once.

I disagree with you but I respect your opinion.

Vaticanus   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 10:26am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 324

Troy says

infantile ideology

Troy says

wackaloon history-challenged American-exceptionalist romanticists

You are pretty good at Ad Hominem too.

This rentierism religion. Who is the god? Tax to break the evil renters? ALL HAIL IRS THE GREAT LEVELER OF PLAYING FIELDS. IF WE ONLY HAD HIGHER TAXES WE ALL WOULD BE FREE.

Higher taxes in 2010!!!!!!!!

Must be the koolade.

Vaticanus   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 10:36am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 325

Troy says

Washington himself was a surveyor-speculator. Land speculation bankrupted the financier of the revolution, Robert Morris, who spent years rotting in a debtors prison at the turn of the century. Daniel Boone was ruined financially speculating in Kentucky land, eventually prompting him to move to Missouri.

Not that I really wish to go down this road (we are discussing the "health care" boondogle in this thread in case you need reminding), but how do you presume to say that "rentiers" get something for nothing and in the same thread you tell of would be rentiers who lost everything? Extreme risk buying land maybe huh? Maybe that risk deserves a reward now and then? Something for nothing? I think not. Next thing you know Troy will be saying that farmers should pay tax on 75% of their crops because they get something for nothing. All they do is put seed in the ground and wait 4 months. Lazy rich bastards. Then they have the audacity to SELL their food for a profit. What scum.

Does the brain know what the hands are typing?

Add Icon anonymous   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 10:51am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 326

The current unelected body continues to be our Insurance companies/

¥   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 11:39am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 327

AdHominem says

n case you need reminding

you were one who brought up the founding fathers as freedom fighter heroes and why they fought for independence. They fought for independence, and promptly established a federal government to oversee interstate commerce, defense, and economic development. The Federalists and Democratic-Republicans were having these same debates about the proper level of government interference in the market, and the Federalists basically won. This is a dodge anyway, since the several states had plenary power to enact any freedom-limiting laws they wanted to.

The founding fathers did not set down to establish the Libertarian Paradise. They gaves us the Federal Constitutional Republic we still have now. Franklin's quip ". . . a Republic, if you can keep it!" wasn't directed at loss of liberty from below, but loss of liberty from wealthy interests.

Maybe that risk deserves a reward now and then?

Just because there is risk in buying land usage rights doesn't mean this economic activity doesn't boil down to legalized theft of the commons. John Dillinger didn't deserve any rewards for the risks he was taking robbing banks.

To judge the worthiness of return to capital, one must see what has been produced with that capital. To the extent land titles facilitate construction, then they are not entirely a societal evil, but there are other ways to secure fixed improvements without yielding the ground rents to the landlord. Thomas Paine was a pioneer in this line of thought, as was, I assume, your patron saints Adam Smith and John Locke.

IF WE ONLY HAD HIGHER TAXES WE ALL WOULD BE FREE.

Sounds good to me. Lower taxes just leave more on the table for those who enjoy pricing power to grab. The success of the high tax regimes of the Eurosocialists demostrate that, in the end, all taxes come out of rents. And we have a LOT of rents being extracted from the actual producers of the present economy.

Vaticanus   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 11:46am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 328

Troy, I am a happy renter. I am content not to own property. Let someone else take the risk and the upkeep. If they are willing to let me use their place then more power to both of us. That is of the benefits of "rentierism." I believe if you examine it closer you will find that it is often a win-win situation. The only time it becomes a problem is when the rentier forces you to pay them (or uses the government to force you to pay them). This is tyranny.

Vaticanus   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 11:49am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 329

Troy says

legalized theft of the commons

sounds like some communal bs to me

Private property is one of the foundations of a free society.

¥   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 12:57pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 330

AdHominem says

sounds like some communal bs to me

yeah, until late 2003 I thought the world could be only divided into minarchy and socialism, both with their apparent flaws. Finding Georgism, a third way, was quite eye-opening.

Private property is one of the foundations of a free society.

Indeed! However, when there's no more land free for the taking, there's going to be a . . . loss of freedom suffered by somebody -- namely, by the renters to the rentiers.

"A right of property in movable things is admitted before the establishment of government. A separate property in lands not till after that establishment.... " -- Thomas Jefferson

"Men did not make the earth.... It is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property.... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine

"Ground rents are a species of revenue which the owner, in many cases, enjoys without any care or attention of his own. Ground rents are, therefore, perhaps a species of revenue which can best bear to have a peculiar tax imposed upon them." -- Adam Smith

"I've run into tons of situations were I think the Single-Tax theory would be applicable. We should remember also this about Henry George, he was sort of co-opted by the socialists in the 20s and the 30s, but he was not one at all. Alfred J. Nock's book on him makes that plain. Plus, also, he believes in only that tax. He believes in zero income tax. " -- William F Buckley

"In my opinion, the least bad tax is the property tax on the unimproved value of land, the Henry George argument of many, many years ago." -- Milton Friedman

buncha communists there, LOL

¥   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 1:08pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 331

One more:

"The Government should at once construct, own, and operate the railways in Alaska. The Government should keep the [ownership] of all the coal-fields and allow them to be operated by lessees with the condition in the lease that non-use shall operate as a forfeit. Telegraph lines should be operated as the railways are. Moreover, it would be well in Alaska to try a system of land taxation which will, so far as possible, remove all the burdens from those who actually use the land, whether for building or for agricultural purposes, and will operate against any man who holds the land for speculation, or derives an income from it based, not on his own exertions, but on the increase in value due to activities not his own." -- The Communist secret agent elected the 26th President

And you clowns have the temerity to call Obama a leftist!

Bap33   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 3:37pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 332

I have temerity? wow

¥   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 4:33pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 333

Apologies for the tone. I just get so pissed off writing these defenses of centrist liberalism against really historically ignorant and deeply flawed criticisms and outright repetitions of demagoguery that waft through the corporate press (WSJ/FOXNEWS/ABC) and think tank nexus (Heritage/AEI/Manhattan/Hoover).

Progressive politics *is* centrist politics. Theodore Roosevelt finished second in the race of 2012, running against the somewhat conservative Wilson and the very conservative Taft. Debs, the actual, bona-fide leftist, finished fourth.

Vaticanus   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 5:09pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 334

Troy says

And you clowns have the temerity to call Obama a leftist!

Actually this BOZO would refer to him as a socialist.

Troy, you might find this interesting. http://www.groundswellusa.org/kyri7802.htm

When it comes to rising property values, in areas where population is sparse, most of the increase in price is nominal only. If the value of money were constant, price would also be relatively constant.

That is why I see the FED and its manipulation of the value and supply of money as the greater threat to freedom. Of course the FED only makes bankers more powerful than they already were. Without the fed, we would still have to deal with the bankers and landowners as you put it. But they are much easier to deal with than legalized counterfeiting which goes on at the FED. In addition to the FED's inflationary policieis, fractional reserve banking drives up the nominal value of land as well (really fractional reserve banking is another form of counterfeiting).

¥   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 6:11pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 335

AdHominem says

Actually this BOZO would refer to him as a socialist.

And you would be incorrect. Obama is more closely aligned with the University of Chicago school than Eugene Debs and the Wobblies.

http://www.iseff.com/post/50901421/obamas-economics-and-his-background-from-the

I think Obama fits squarely in the Progressive mold of Theodore Roosevelt. Socialism goes too far to the left -- it is responsible for much of the organized stupidity and mass lethality of the 20th century. Laissez Faire goes to far in the other direction, allowing wealth to trammel everything in its path and loot everything with abandon -- for a recent example one need to just look at the twin lootings accomplished by the first S&L crisis of the 80s and its sequel this decade.

Troy, you might find this interesting. http://www.groundswellusa.org/kyri7802.htm

This: "Another way Georgism can help a Libertarian campaign is by saying we won't need big government as much when we have community collection of ground rent." from the above link is the take-away for me. I am left-libertarian, and like the Progressives, only desire the amount of government that is needed to keep the playing field level for all. I'd like to think community collection of ground rents (to partially fund non-profit local services like parks, libraries, mass transit, lifelong education, medical services, daycare) would be sufficient for this, but I have my doubts. It would certainly be a good start, though.

Vaticanus   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 6:13pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 336

Troy says

community collection of ground rents

ah yes, the first plank in the communist manifesto.

Vaticanus   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 6:15pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 337

Troy says

twin lootings accomplished by the first S&L crisis of the 80s and its sequel this decade.

You can thank the FED (its private investors) and their paid off politicians in Congress for that.

¥   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 6:26pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 338

AdHominem says

ah yes, the first plank in the communist manifesto.

yes, but that's the end of its cooption by the communist totalitarians. Georgism is generally anarchist in character and attracted minds like Samuel Clemens and Leo Tolstoy as ardent supporters. The community collection of rents is also not a particularly radical proposal:

"Would it be better if we had more taxation of land and natural resource, and more revenue from natural resource management, and I would include atmosphere and spectrum." And less tax on income and savings. And I would say, "Yeah." And I think many economists would agree with that. So, if you want to sell it as a "Single Tax," then, no, you won't get anyone to agree that there's enough revenue there. If you look at is a more "central" tax, then, yes, you will get most economists to agree with you. -- Joseph Stiglitz

¥   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 6:34pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 339

AdHominem says

You can thank the FED (its private investors) and their paid off politicians in Congress for that.

Nope, that's just smoke to hide the true locus of responsibility in the Executive.

Hint:

Congress didn't cover themselves in glory 1995-2005 but the true malefactors were the foxes in the henhouse.

Sorry I lack the tinfoil to get all het up about the Fed, though.

elliemae   Tue, 22 Dec 2009, 11:25pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 340

Troy says

Sorry I lack the tinfoil to get all het up about the Fed, though.

:)

Vaticanus   Wed, 23 Dec 2009, 2:33am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 341

Troy says

Sorry I lack the tinfoil to get all het up about the Fed, though.

what size do you wear?

we will continue to be servants as long as we allow the FED to "regulate" our currency.

Patrick posted a good article today on the dangers of fractional reserve banking.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rozeff/rozeff318.html?source=patrick.net

elliemae   Wed, 23 Dec 2009, 1:01pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 342

AdHominem says

Troy says


Sorry I lack the tinfoil to get all het up about the Fed, though.

what size do you wear?
we will continue to be servants as long as we allow the FED to “regulate” our currency.
Patrick posted a good article today on the dangers of fractional reserve banking.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rozeff/rozeff318.html?source=patrick.net

Troy - seems like he made extras in case someone follows him. Shall we tell him that any roll of tinfoil will make lotsa hats?

Nah.

¥   Wed, 23 Dec 2009, 2:33pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 343

I really couldn't care less how much gold the Fed has stashed in holes in the ground.

Now, days of supply in the SPR, that is actually worth something.

I read something some time ago that really opened my eyes. . . the humble Federal irrigation works serving the California Central Valley produced many, many times more wealth than all the gold dug out of the Sierras. Right now Fresno County produces $5B/yr of ag, mostly cash crops like tree fruit and raisins. That's about equal to Russia's entire annual gold production at current prices.

Nomograph   Wed, 23 Dec 2009, 10:21pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 344

Troy says

he humble Federal irrigation works serving the California Central Valley produced many, many times more wealth than all the gold dug out of the Sierras. Right now Fresno County produces $5B/yr of ag, mostly cash crops like tree fruit and raisins. That’s about equal to Russia’s entire annual gold production at current prices.

But wait. I learned on Patrick.net that ALL government programs, even public works, are total failures.

And why in the world would you want to use land for food production rather than strip mining? You must be one of those pinko tree-hugging wackos.

Vaticanus   Thu, 24 Dec 2009, 7:47pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 345

elliemae says

AdHominem says

Troy says

Sorry I lack the tinfoil to get all het up about the Fed, though.

what size do you wear?

we will continue to be servants as long as we allow the FED to “regulate” our currency.

Patrick posted a good article today on the dangers of fractional reserve banking.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rozeff/rozeff318.html?source=patrick.net

Troy - seems like he made extras in case someone follows him. Shall we tell him that any roll of tinfoil will make lotsa hats?
Nah.

And yet I thought you said in another thread that you hope for a spirited debate rather than mean spirited? I guess, words sound good, but they are harder to put into practice.

Bap33   Fri, 25 Dec 2009, 12:37am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 346

AH ... don't forget the nature of the enemy. Everything is as it should be, and the hour draws near.

elliemae   Sat, 26 Dec 2009, 3:15am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 347

AdHominem says

And yet I thought you said in another thread that you hope for a spirited debate rather than mean spirited? I guess, words sound good, but they are harder to put into practice.

Most people wouldn't take that as mean spirited - unless one constantly feels persecuted, that is.

Bap33   Sat, 26 Dec 2009, 10:39am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 348

funny thing ... if someone is constantly attacked, they just might notice it now and then. And funny thing, a bully allways calls their targets crybabies/complainers when the targets respond to the bully. Most people realize these little tid bits - unless it is inconvieniant. Like spell-check is inconvieniant for me. lol

tatupu70   Sun, 27 Dec 2009, 5:26am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 349

Is that what this thread has become? Who called who a bad name? I think that's the sign that it's probably time to lay it to rest...

Bap33   Sun, 27 Dec 2009, 10:25am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 350

Kevin says

AdHominem says


Me paying for YOUR health care is slavery if I have no choice but to pay or be fined or imprisoned.

Me paying for YOUR roads is slavery!

roads are for public use
personal health care is --- taa daa --- personal.

ok tatupu, we are back on track!! lol Merry Christmas

Vaticanus   Mon, 28 Dec 2009, 4:21pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 351

tatu would love not to acknowledge that health care "reform" is not only a waste of time, but will also fill the pockets of insurance companies at taxpayer's expense. So would ellie and nomo who have fought hard to make this a name calling and ad hominem affair rather than discussing the real issues.

elliemae   Mon, 28 Dec 2009, 9:58pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 352

yawn.

tatupu70   Mon, 28 Dec 2009, 10:45pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 353

AdHominem says

health care “reform” is not only a waste of time

A waste of time?? Are you kidding? So, you think the status quo is the best we can do?

Bap33   Tue, 29 Dec 2009, 10:47pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 354

two seperate halves, no match, no bill. It's just pissed away time and cash and a prez and media all excited that he will get to thump his chest like King Kong and say, "we did SOMETHING!!". Barry is a communist puke. And the leftist media is just a guilty for creating him.

Vaticanus   Thu, 7 Jan 2010, 4:16pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 355

tatupu70 says

This “health care reform” bill is a waste of time and money, and essentially a perpetuation of the status quo you so disdain.

This “health care reform” bill is a waste of time and money, and essentially a perpetuation of the status quo you so disdain.

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