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Why do you hate the gov?

By kentm   Follow   Sat, 30 Jan 2010, 1:19am   16,638 views   502 comments
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Those of you who do.

I don't understand this.

Please post a quick note, whatever you care to express. I don't mind if you're sarcastic or derisive, its just that I'd just like to hear some thoughts and this seems like a good place to ask, people on this list are articulate and seem to have a lot of personal experience.

I actually kind of don't expect much of a response, its a touchy subject to come right out and ask about, but I hope so.

Its healthy to be skeptical and all, but I see so much hate of "gov" here in the US, so much unfocused rage. What exactly is the issue/s?

I appreciate anything anyone cares to offer.

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1. RayAmerica Follow Befriend (9) 120 threads 2,591 comments Burbank, CA

   23   3:07pm Sun 31 Jan 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   iwog says There’s nothing totalitarian about claiming government solves major societal problems. That’s the sole reason for government to exist. You’re showing a complete ignorance of what the word “totalitarian” means as well as ignorance about why government exists in the first place. If government doesn’t exist to solve major problems, why does it exist at all? Most people would try to clarify their position on this topic. I doubt you’ll even acknowledge it. I suggest you read the Constitution of the United States for a definition of why government exists. Furthermore, I find it interesting that you changed from "government solving ALL major problems" to solving "major problems” … just a slight adjustment on your part. Is that because even you acknowledge your ridiculous original claim?

2. RayAmerica Follow Befriend (9) 120 threads 2,591 comments Burbank, CA

   24   3:10pm Sun 31 Jan 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   iwog says Rule #3: The best way to solve all major problems has always been the government and always will be the government. Government in the hands of the wrong people is a very dangerous thing. Do I really have to point that out? Do you know anything regarding the lessons of history?

3. Vaticanus Follow Befriend (1) 77 threads 1,120 comments

   25   3:33pm Sun 31 Jan 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   RayAmerica says I suggest you read the Constitution of the United States for a definition of why government exists. Actually the Declaration of Independence is a better guide. Patrick says I just can’t believe anyone really pays 45% in the USA. I don’t see how it’s possible, even in California. When you factor in state, local, federal, FICA, Medicare, sales, energy, unemployment, fuel, etc... and the hidden tax of inflation I would suspect that it is closer to 50% of our annual income is confiscated by the bureaucracy. For our own good of course.

4. RayAmerica Follow Befriend (9) 120 threads 2,591 comments Burbank, CA

   26   3:54pm Sun 31 Jan 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   iwog says Because $50 is far beyond what the average employee needs for basic living expenses. It’s not necessary. Want to try again? How about $30 per hour? $20 maybe?? Are you still there??

5. RayAmerica Follow Befriend (9) 120 threads 2,591 comments Burbank, CA

   27   3:56pm Sun 31 Jan 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   AdHominem says Actually the Declaration of Independence is a better guide. I have no problem using the Declaration as a "guide" while using the Constitution as an instrument in limiting the powers of the centralized government.

6. Vaticanus Follow Befriend (1) 77 threads 1,120 comments

   28   4:03pm Sun 31 Jan 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   RayAmerica says AdHominem says Actually the Declaration of Independence is a better guide. I have no problem using the Declaration as a “guide” while using the Constitution as an instrument in limiting the powers of the centralized government. OK Ray, Merely pointing out that the Declaration tells is WHAT many early Americans believed about government, whereas the Constitution describes HOW we are attempting to achieve these ideals. Therefore the Declaration of Independence is a better source of WHY early Americans believed government exists. The Constitution primarily tells us how, not why.

7. RayAmerica Follow Befriend (9) 120 threads 2,591 comments Burbank, CA

   29   4:19pm Sun 31 Jan 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   AdHominem says Therefore the Declaration of Independence is a better source of WHY early Americans believed government exists. The Constitution primarily tells us how, not why. I see what you're saying .... and agree. Sorry to disappoint you IWOG, we are both on the same page and are in agreement that you're all wet. LOL

8. theoakman Follow Befriend 2 threads 645 comments

   30   4:48pm Sun 31 Jan 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Patrick says I just can’t believe anyone really pays 45% in the USA. I don’t see how it’s possible, even in California. If you’re making over $100K but less than $200K, you may get up to the maximum marginal rate of 35% Fed and 9% CA, but that ignores all the income below that marginal rate, which is taxed at lower percentages. If you make more than $200K, you probably get more of your income from long-term capital gains and dividends, which are taxed only at 15% because class warfare is over and the rich won that war during the Bush years. And if you make some absurd amount of money, you probably pay even less because you have good lawyers. Have you ever seen property taxes in NJ? In North Jersey, middle class families are paying $12k in taxes their homes.

9. iwog Follow Befriend (48) 274 threads 12,532 comments 47 male Lafayette, CA Premium

   31   6:52pm Sun 31 Jan 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   Protected   RayAmerica says iwog says Rule #3: The best way to solve all major problems has always been the government and always will be the government. Government in the hands of the wrong people is a very dangerous thing. Do I really have to point that out? Do you know anything regarding the lessons of history? You did exactly as I predicted. You failed to acknowledge my point and simply posted a non-sequitur. Iwog: Government solves all major problems. Ray: Government in the wrong hands is dangerous. Iwog: Duh, what does that have to do with government solving all major problems?

10. iwog Follow Befriend (48) 274 threads 12,532 comments 47 male Lafayette, CA Premium

    32   6:57pm Sun 31 Jan 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   Protected   RayAmerica says iwog says There’s nothing totalitarian about claiming government solves major societal problems. That’s the sole reason for government to exist. You’re showing a complete ignorance of what the word “totalitarian” means as well as ignorance about why government exists in the first place. If government doesn’t exist to solve major problems, why does it exist at all? Most people would try to clarify their position on this topic. I doubt you’ll even acknowledge it. I suggest you read the Constitution of the United States for a definition of why government exists. Furthermore, I find it interesting that you changed from “government solving ALL major problems” to solving “major problems” … just a slight adjustment on your part. Is that because even you acknowledge your ridiculous original claim? You points here: - read the constitution. - petty complaint about semantics. That's pretty much it. You're not defending anything or even making a relevant point. See what I mean when I say you're incapable of presenting a position or even discussing a topic? I'll try again. I said that there is nothing totalitarian about the government solving major problems. Do you have ANYTHING WHATSOEVER TO SAY to either retract your comment about totalitarianism or support your point that it's a totalitarian statement. In other words, are you EVER capable of talking about anything??????

11. errc Follow Befriend (7) 29 threads 1,211 comments 31 male Premium

    33   7:40pm Sun 31 Jan 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   do you like the way the government solved that big problem we had with hemp and marijuana? through prohibition?

12. ErikK Follow Befriend 1 threads 35 comments

    34   8:18pm Sun 31 Jan 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   I think to answer the OP, I would say I don't hate the idea of government. I hate that we have a polarized, non-functional, corrupt government that is either unable or unwilling to put the good of the nation ahead of partisan and lobbyist interests. This broken government we have is the product of both parties. America was born because the colonists got pissed off with an uncaring, distant government. Figuratively I believe the majority of Americans today believe our current government is the same. I believe our representatives in D.C. are totally unfamiliar with our daily lives and struggles. Sure, they give good sound bites about how they stopped by the Salvation Army store and saw some black kid something or other. How many of those people in Congress ever worked for minimum wage, EVER? Most of them are from privileged backgrounds and truly have no concept of what Americans are living with today. Personally I'd like to see a smaller more focused government. I just don't see how we're going to get there when during the greatest economic crisis of our generation you have congressional committees being called to grill the White House party crashers. REALLY, nothing better to do with your time Mr. Congressman?!

13. Vaticanus Follow Befriend (1) 77 threads 1,120 comments

    35   9:21pm Sun 31 Jan 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)   ErikK says I would say I don’t hate the idea of government. Neither do I. ErikK says This broken government we have is the product of both parties. Right on. ErikK says America was born because the colonists got pissed off with an uncaring, distant government. One of the rallying cries was TAXATION without representation. Kind of like bailouts despite the fact that most Americans opposed them. And how Americans are not allowed to know what the FED does in secret, let alone have a seat at the table. ErikK says Personally I’d like to see a smaller more focused government. Join the club, the movement towards these ideals is growing with every unfunded program Congress and the presidents approve. Ever wonder why when one party takes control they rarely if ever roll back the stupid laws and policies of the other party? Its like they are both just fighting against each other as a smoke screen to keep us all polarized against one another. Really they are on the same team. We just end up with more and more laws. For example the Patriot Act. Why can't we repeal that sucker? The endless wars, can't we bring the troops home some decade? Wait I know, WAR IS PEACE right IWOG/Winston?

14. iwog Follow Befriend (48) 274 threads 12,532 comments 47 male Lafayette, CA Premium

    36   10:33pm Sun 31 Jan 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   errc says do you like the way the government solved that big problem we had with hemp and marijuana? through prohibition? Nope, I don't. The problem is that a majority of Americans do......or at least did want marijuana to be classified as an illegal narcotic. Things are changing and marijuana is basically legal in a number of states now. Given time it's not going to be an issue. I refuse to be a one issue voter however. This is not an issue responsible for long term damage to our country.

15. Kevin Follow Befriend 40 threads 2,652 comments

    37   11:31pm Sun 31 Jan 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Hating the government has been a favorite pastime of people everywhere in the world since the first governments were formed. In the US, I hate the government for its inability to operate in a rational and somewhat transparent manner. As an engineer, I'm appalled at our complete inability to make simple and rational decisions. I'd rather have an honest government doing things that I don't support than the convoluted mess that we have today that is ostensibly doing what I'd like.

16. Done! Follow Befriend (4) 159 threads 2,826 comments

    38   7:09am Mon 1 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   iwog says Did you see Obama vs. “The Republicans” on live TV after the State of the Union address? No I'm done watching the Federal Vaudeville show. I'll get my facts about his presidency by measuring tangible results. When there are any,

17. RayAmerica Follow Befriend (9) 120 threads 2,591 comments Burbank, CA

    39   8:50am Mon 1 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)   iwog says In other words, are you EVER capable of talking about anything?????? Feathers a little bit ruffled? LOL !!

18. RayAmerica Follow Befriend (9) 120 threads 2,591 comments Burbank, CA

    40   8:54am Mon 1 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   iwog says That’s pretty much it. You’re not defending anything or even making a relevant point. See what I mean when I say you’re incapable of presenting a position or even discussing a topic? That's quite a statement coming from the genius that said the answer to our national debt is "we'll just print money and pay off the debt with that." I'm still waiting for your response as to what exactly you think the minimum wage should be .... $20 or $30?? LOL

19. ErikK Follow Befriend 1 threads 35 comments

    41   9:08am Mon 1 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   Well I can only speak for myself. In 2008 (haven't calculated or filed for '09 yet) we had W-2 income of between $97.5K and $98K (approximating numbers here for privacy reasons but I'm reading my 1040 return for the numbers). So basically just about a six-figure W-2 income from day job wages. Add in taxable interest and taxable refunds (prior year refunds), subtract real estate losses (paper losses only due to depreciation and deductions on a couple rental properties), subtract itemized deductions such as Interest-Only home mortgage interest and child tax credits (2 kids), etc, our Taxable Income on line 43 was between $12K, and $12.1K. Final federal income tax due for tax year 2008, $1,203.00. So real tax impact for fiscal '08 to the feds from my family? 1.23% Real tax impact for fiscal '08 from state income tax? 1.24% Sure, you can argue about gasoline taxes, car taxes, National Park entrance fees, etc, etc, etc. What it comes down to for me is that if you read a few books and learn about all the tax breaks for owning real estate investments (1 SFR, 1 duplex, 1 condo) and if you were lucky enough to have bought right and financed right you can almost make your taxable income completely disappear. For cash flow purposes I only need to worry about how much cash comes in from tenant minus property manager fees. I get a check for net cash in-flow from my property manager. I have a net cash outflow for the PITI payment to the mortgage company. Let's say for example at this point my cash in = cash out. Now, I may have cash expenditures for repairs or upgrades, but then I get to deduct those expenses against income anyway. And here's the kicker, a lot of my cash out is tax deductible as a business expense (mortgage interest on the property, property taxes) and THEN I GET TO TAKE DEPRECIATION of the building structure and any improvements like the new carpet I put in, the roof I put on in 2003, etc, etc, etc. I get to write off property management expenses just as a business would write off an employee expense. I get to write off a (very small) fraction of my personal home because I have a room used as a home office. I write off the computer and printer I bought for business use. I write off a portion of my utility bills as a business expense, I write off a portion of my cell phone bill. All the last write-offs are only at a small fraction (proportional to personal vs exclusive business use), but they still reduce my taxable income. (There is a limit of a $25K loss annually for a passive investor, which I am since I'm not actively managing the properties personally). So even though my real estate cash in may = cash out, it's all a great big tax LOSS that reduced my taxable income by almost 1/4. Add in personal residence interest paid, and property taxes paid, and taxes paid for state income tax and that wipes away more than another 1/4 of the W-2 wages. Add up the Child tax credits, tax-deductible retirement contributions, charitable donations to our church, and there goes another 1/4. Now I could argue that in paying for property managers and deducting those expenditures from my tax returns I'm just shifting the taxable income to those contractors who will pay their own income taxes. I could argue that reducing my taxable income by donating to the church results in some tax gain for the gov't somewhere else (but not that I'm currently aware of expect church employee incomes). I could argue that reducing my taxable income today by putting funds into tax-deferred retirement accounts will cause the gov't to get more money from me in retirement. Whatever the arguments, I'll stick the hard numbers at the top of my post and argue that if you structure your life in a tax-advantaged way with the input of research and a CPA you can get away with paying almost no taxes if you're "rich enough" to own a home and real estate investments and have money left over for charity and retirement funding. So to sum up, I can't really justify for myself being in the "anti-tax" camp because I don't feel I'm really paying all that much in taxes. My "beef" with the gov't is over how it acts, not where it gets its funding.

20. iwog Follow Befriend (48) 274 threads 12,532 comments 47 male Lafayette, CA Premium

    42   10:42am Mon 1 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Protected   SF ace says iwog says It’s the result of a 30 year propaganda campaign by the right to convince working people that a new entrenched aristocracy is better than our representative government. That’s the shortest, most accurate answer I can give you. People who hate taxes have no idea that taxes are near their lowest level since WWII. Are you sure taxes are at the lowest level since WWII? The US has gotten good disguising the taxation through new taxes and loads of indirect taxes, taxes designed as fees, and pushing taxes to state governments which in terms pushes them to local government. Then there are taxes through adminstrative policy like AMT, deduction phase out and surcharges. If you are going by tax rates alone, you are fooled. China created trillions in reserves taxing their citizens fractions of their US counterparts, which is also creating trillions in debt. I am not sure that $$ is well spend and as a taxpayer, i will be somewhat concerned. Yes I'm sure. On average, the richest Americans only pay 25% in taxes on their income. That's the lowest level since World War II. As you slide down the income scale, the % goes up and then down again. Generally the bottom 25% pays little or no income tax. Americans are not overtaxed. That's a lie put out by the aristocracy to create support for the elimination of taxes. Unfortunately when taxes are cut, they are primarily for the rich. Estate tax, dividend taxes, capital gains taxes, etc. The tax cuts over the last 30 years applied to rich people have been MASSIVE and the average American has no fricken idea how much things have changed.

21. iwog Follow Befriend (48) 274 threads 12,532 comments 47 male Lafayette, CA Premium

    43   10:45am Mon 1 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   RayAmerica says iwog says That’s pretty much it. You’re not defending anything or even making a relevant point. See what I mean when I say you’re incapable of presenting a position or even discussing a topic? That’s quite a statement coming from the genius that said the answer to our national debt is “we’ll just print money and pay off the debt with that.” I’m still waiting for your response as to what exactly you think the minimum wage should be …. $20 or $30?? LOL Thank you for proving my point yet again. My answer to the national debt is to print money and pay it off. Are you going to talk about it? Are you going to discuss the implications? NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! You aren't!!!!!!!!!! Once again folks, this is a person who is NOT CAPABLE OF DISCUSSING ANY TOPIC, EVEN HIS OWN! He's UTTERLY devoid of logic and reason. He can cite talking points all day long, but he'll never come close to actually analyzing anything. He's the DEFINITION of disingenuous.

22. theoakman Follow Befriend 2 threads 645 comments

    44   3:09pm Mon 1 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   iwog says Child labor - government Smog and polution - government Schooling all Americans - government Seat belts in cars - government Food standards - government (kids used to die from spoiled milk before expiration dates were forced on producers) Workers dying in coal mines - government Fuel standards - government Child seats - government The list is endless. The funny thing about this list is that most of the problems were created by economic freedom and corporate greed. It took government to solve them. All these problems could be solved with a government that is 1/20th the size of our current Federal/State governments. We don't need to spend 4 trillion dollars a year to accomplish the goals you laid out.

23. Honest Abe Follow Befriend (41) 91 threads 1,806 comments

    45   4:45pm Mon 1 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike   The simple fact that Iwog (and Tatpu, and ellie) can't understand, or refuse to understand, is that prosperity is inversely proportional to government regulation. In other words, America is loosing her prosperity because she is loosing her freedom (paraphrased from Ron Paul). Freedom works, whereas government philosophy is: "If it ain't broke, keep fixin' it till it is".

24. tatupu70 Follow Befriend (3) 15 threads 5,627 comments

    46   5:05pm Mon 1 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Honest Abe says The simple fact that Iwog (and Tatpu, and ellie) can’t understand, or refuse to understand, is that prosperity is inversely proportional to government regulation I understand what you're saying, the problem is that you are incorrect. You make the mistake of believing that if someone disagrees with you, they must not understand. When, in reality, they understand the situation in a deeper way and have realized that your narrow view is wrong. theoakman says All these problems could be solved with a government that is 1/20th the size of our current Federal/State governments. We don’t need to spend 4 trillion dollars a year to accomplish the goals you laid out And we don't spend very much solving those problems that Iwog listed. What's killing us (no pun intended) is that we spend 50% of our budget on the military. Cut our military spending in half and we'd be much closer to balancing the budget. Then revamping our health care can get us the rest of the way.

25. Honest Abe Follow Befriend (41) 91 threads 1,806 comments

    47   7:07pm Mon 1 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Hahaha, you're kidding, right...you must be. Concepts too simple for liberals, socialists or progressives: 2 + 2 = 4, debasing your own currency is reckless monetary policy, its fiscally irresponsible to spend more than you have, shall I continue? Yes, we spend way too much on imperalism (might as well call it what it is) but putting the albatross of health care around the necks of tax payers will only make matters worse, not better. Name ONE government program that provides any service for less that what the private sector does (I mean one WITHOUT a government subsidy).

26. iwog Follow Befriend (48) 274 threads 12,532 comments 47 male Lafayette, CA Premium

    48   7:16pm Mon 1 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   Honest Abe says The simple fact that Iwog (and Tatpu, and ellie) can’t understand, or refuse to understand, is that prosperity is inversely proportional to government regulation. In other words, America is loosing her prosperity because she is loosing her freedom (paraphrased from Ron Paul). Freedom works, whereas government philosophy is: “If it ain’t broke, keep fixin’ it till it is”. I consider this a lie. Prove it's not. SUPPORT YOUR ASSERTION!!!!!! - Government regulation and taxation was at an all time high in 1946, which also happened to usher in the longest boom period in our history. - The nations with the least government regulations (and least government period) are Somalia and Haiti. Obviously economic powerhouses. - The nations with the most government regulation include Germany (the strongest economy in Europe) and Japan. (the strongest economy in Asia) You can neither explain your position OR draw historical and/or current examples to support it. I'm simply stunned that people can be this willfully blind to reality. Theory is one thing, but holding a theory that is utterly without support is nothing more than propaganda and a lie designed to manipulate.

27. tatupu70 Follow Befriend (3) 15 threads 5,627 comments

    49   7:46pm Mon 1 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Honest Abe says Name ONE government program that provides any service for less that what the private sector does (I mean one WITHOUT a government subsidy). That's the point though--health care is unlike any other service. You literally can't live without it so there is no substitute for it. And free markets don't work well under those conditions.

28. Honest Abe Follow Befriend (41) 91 threads 1,806 comments

    50   8:36pm Mon 1 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   More stupidity: "Governmnet regulation was at an all time high in 1946". You must be completly unaware of what's happening all around you. EARTH TO IWOG....HELLO...ANYONE HOME??? BTW - a free market is simply freedom of choice...like: "I think I'll buy a (fill in the blank) today". Millions of individuals making independent choices is what the free market is. I know, you guys can't stand the concept of freedom. For some god forsaken reason you can't stand the thought of people having free choice, liberty or freedom. It seems like you have an uncontrollable urge to control and "regulate" people. I feel sorry for you (but not too sorry).

29. bob2356 Follow Befriend 2 threads 2,497 comments

    51   2:57am Tue 2 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Honest Abe says More stupidity: “Governmnet regulation was at an all time high in 1946″. You must be completly unaware of what’s happening all around you. EARTH TO IWOG….HELLO…ANYONE HOME??? BTW - a free market is simply freedom of choice…like: “I think I’ll buy a (fill in the blank) today”. Millions of individuals making independent choices is what the free market is. I know, you guys can’t stand the concept of freedom. For some god forsaken reason you can’t stand the thought of people having free choice, liberty or freedom. It seems like you have an uncontrollable urge to control and “regulate” people. I feel sorry for you (but not too sorry). Ok now I'm curious. Just what is it other than pot that regulation is preventing you from buying?

30. iwog Follow Befriend (48) 274 threads 12,532 comments 47 male Lafayette, CA Premium

    52   6:38am Tue 2 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   Honest Abe says More stupidity: “Governmnet regulation was at an all time high in 1946″. You must be completly unaware of what’s happening all around you. EARTH TO IWOG….HELLO…ANYONE HOME??? BTW - a free market is simply freedom of choice…like: “I think I’ll buy a (fill in the blank) today”. Millions of individuals making independent choices is what the free market is. I know, you guys can’t stand the concept of freedom. For some god forsaken reason you can’t stand the thought of people having free choice, liberty or freedom. It seems like you have an uncontrollable urge to control and “regulate” people. I feel sorry for you (but not too sorry). Why don't you fill me on on what's going on all around me? Tell me about all the additional government regulations I have to deal with. Are there more laws against homosexuality now? Porn? The fairness doctrine is long dead right? Loitering laws are gone. Black folk are no longer restricted to what drinking fountain they can use. Those are just a few PERSONAL examples. The list of laws that no longer apply to corporations could fill a fricken book! Honestly I think you're crazy. You want freedom? You want the ability to make a choice about what you're going to buy today? Move to Somalia. I'm serious. It's the most free market I know of.

31. Honest Abe Follow Befriend (41) 91 threads 1,806 comments

    53   7:46am Tue 2 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   iwOG, BOB 23, ELLIE, tatpu...and all the rest of you freedom haters and rights destroyers, I'm sorry - my three children have more common sense than all of you put together. I'm tried of arguing with idiots. Bye bye now.

32. Nomograph Follow Befriend (1) 104 threads 2,851 comments

    54   8:09am Tue 2 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Honest Abe says iwOG, BOB 23, ELLIE, tatpu…and all the rest of you freedom haters and rights destroyers, I’m sorry - my three children have more common sense than all of you put together. I’m tried of arguing with idiots. Bye bye now. Looks like "Honest" Abe is completely unable to defend his ideas. Chalk one up for the freedom haters and rights destroyers!

33. Nomograph Follow Befriend (1) 104 threads 2,851 comments

    55   8:14am Tue 2 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   bob2356 says Ok now I’m curious. Just what is it other than pot that regulation is preventing you from buying? You have to understand that folks like "Honest" Abe and AdHominem have victim mentalities. They walk this earth with more freedoms, rights, and privileges than 99.99999% of all humans who came before them, yet they squander this precious gift by pretending to be victimized by a tyrannical government. People like this are do-nothings who use their victimhood as an excuse for failure and inaction. They aren't worth the time of day and get ZERO respect in my book.

34. RayAmerica Follow Befriend (9) 120 threads 2,591 comments Burbank, CA

    56   11:00am Tue 2 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   iwog says Thank you for proving my point yet again. My answer to the national debt is to print money and pay it off. Are you going to talk about it? Are you going to discuss the implications? NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! You aren’t!!!!!!!!!! Here's another idea that will send that tingly feeling up your leg like an Obama speech: let's pay off not only the entire national debt with printed paper money, but ALL debt. Everyone will be debt free. All we need is a lot of ink and paper. And while we're at it ... let's give everyone 10 million bucks just for fun. Who needs the minimum wage then? Problem solved. Thinking like a Liberal is so much fun. See? I'm willing to discuss the implications.

35. iwog Follow Befriend (48) 274 threads 12,532 comments 47 male Lafayette, CA Premium

    57   12:01pm Tue 2 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Protected   RayAmerica says iwog says Thank you for proving my point yet again. My answer to the national debt is to print money and pay it off. Are you going to talk about it? Are you going to discuss the implications? NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! You aren’t!!!!!!!!!! Here’s another idea that will send that tingly feeling up your leg like an Obama speech: let’s pay off not only the entire national debt with printed paper money, but ALL debt. Everyone will be debt free. All we need is a lot of ink and paper. And while we’re at it … let’s give everyone 10 million bucks just for fun. Who needs the minimum wage then? Problem solved. Thinking like a Liberal is so much fun. See? I’m willing to discuss the implications. You didn't cite one single implication. All you did was propose additional absurd actions that aren't even solutions to problems. You're so lost, you can't even use english correctly. Look up "implication" then get back to me.

36. PolishKnight Follow Befriend (1) 408 comments Reston, VA

    58   12:03pm Tue 2 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Iwog suggests: "Honestly I think you’re crazy. You want freedom? You want the ability to make a choice about what you’re going to buy today? Move to Somalia. I’m serious. It’s the most free market I know of." This is a typical leftist red herring: Equating "free markets" with lawless anarchy. I personally wouldn't suggest that democratic socialism equals, say, Stalinist Russia although that comparison in this context would be useful: Would you be happier living with 3 other people in a 400 square foot commie apartment and being dragged to jail anytime based upon the whims of the overlord? Plenty of "free" healthcare and a free subscription to the NYT!!! I chuckle when big government lovers who purr with happiness at the prospect of robbing others to pay for their agenda get all in an uproar over... Iraq. Hey, isn't YOUR tax dollars going to Iraq what socialism is all about? If you didn't like the Iraq war, why did you VOTE (or not) and live here? You must think EVERYTHING GW did is A-ok? And hence the problem with socialism: When you throw your lot in Uncle Joe or Big Brother your vote becomes less meaningful. Regarding comparisons to Ethiopia. A more accurate comparison, in my case, would be Ukraine simply because I share a demographic identity with that group. Indeed, the left's paradise is Western Europe which, by American standards is, not "diverse" and racist as hell. They all dream of making America look like... Sweden. Yeah, sure. Democrat voting Detroit and SouthEast DC can someday like... Sweden. Good luck with that.

37. theoakman Follow Befriend 2 threads 645 comments

    59   12:47pm Tue 2 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   And we don’t spend very much solving those problems that Iwog listed. What’s killing us (no pun intended) is that we spend 50% of our budget on the military. Cut our military spending in half and we’d be much closer to balancing the budget. Then revamping our health care can get us the rest of the way. Actually we do. You should see the budgets for the FDA, SEC, FCC, and every other regulatory agency. They all suck at their jobs and they spend 2000% more than they have to doing the crappy job they do. It is possible to decrease the spending of the Federal Government by 90% while increasing regulatory measures. Our government today has chosen the alternate route. Increase spending by 90% while increasing regulation. What we have today is a recipe for disaster. Disaster for the dollar. Disaster for small business. On top of it, the government smacks small business in the face by loading all legislation with massive subsidies for large corporations.

38. PolishKnight Follow Befriend (1) 408 comments Reston, VA

    60   1:07pm Tue 2 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   97.6% of statistics are made up or outright lies. Get it? The "50% of the budget is the military" is a popular, usually leftist, fib. Most of the budget is now interest payments on the debt, social insecurity and medicaid/medicare. The rest, including the military, is gravy. Tee hee. That's one reason why the socialist agenda is DOA in the USA: It's like the USSR all over again: No money. Thanks for slushing all that money to the bankers, Obama! Tee hee! (Did I mention I think that's great?) I personally don't trust the left because I know that being: A) White and B) Male means I have a huge target on my back. I know there are white male leftists out there (a disproportionate number of whom live in the Bay area) but for the other 65% or so of us, I don't see why I should drink cool aid so that the left can bribe other special interest groups into propping up the socialist fiction for a bit longer. If you want to drink cool aid and chant "Yes we can!", go right ahead. Just take off your sneakers first. That's really what it always comes down to: Not making government more "efficient" or even "spreading the wealth" around from "the rich". The rich are too well connected to allow their pockets to be picked. If anything, they buddy up with leftist politicians (like bankers and Obama) to get even MORE money! (Can't say I blame them. They're too SMART to drink cool aid!) So the left's paradigm boils down to buying 2 votes via robbing 1. At least until they get enough power to not need to buy votes. Then it's Josef Stalin time. (And the only justice there is that they are the first to get killed. "Hey! When I supported a big socialist state to rob and lie to others, I didn't mean to me! I'm too CARING and GOOD to be held to my own standards!") Here's the bottom line commies: You clearly have already pushed me under the bus and praying and hoping that I'm foolish enough to feel guilty for being "greedy" to not let you have a second go at it. Among other problems, there isn't money for socialism to work and the demographics of most new socialists is they won't be the kind of electorate to make a socialist utopia either. Think more like Cuba. That's the BEST you can hope for.

39. tatupu70 Follow Befriend (3) 15 threads 5,627 comments

    61   1:21pm Tue 2 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   PolishKnight says The “50% of the budget is the military” is a popular, usually leftist, fib. Most of the budget is now interest payments on the debt, social insecurity and medicaid/medicare. The rest, including the military, is gravy. Tee hee. Not to put too fine a point on it, but you're wrong. If you want to cut spending, you have to start and end with the military industrial complex. Otherwise you are wasting your time because there's not enough money anywhere else to make a hill of beans. 50% (+) of the budget is military spending. And you should really include debt payments because it was the military spending that caused us to be in debt in the first place. Polish--your whole post is ridiculous. More talking points from AM radio. Woe is me--I'm a white male victim. Oh my goodness, I feel so sorry for you...

40. tatupu70 Follow Befriend (3) 15 threads 5,627 comments

    62   1:27pm Tue 2 Feb 2010   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   theoakman says Actually we do. You should see the budgets for the FDA, SEC, FCC, and every other regulatory agency. Well, since you brought it up, I would assume that you would actually post the budgets of those agencies and what % of the US budget they represent. That's how you argue a point--with supporting evidence. theoakman says It is possible to decrease the spending of the Federal Government by 90% while increasing regulatory measures Really--90%? Of the overall budget? Please share how you would accomplish this. ie--what would you cut and by how much.

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