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National Healthcare ... is it really "healthy?"


By RayAmerica   Follow   Sat, 13 Mar 2010, 12:31am PST   3,465 views   57 comments
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“We MUST all have Healthcare …. NOW …. Before more people die without it!” That’s the mantra, but is it really true? There are millions of intelligent people that do not trust traditional medical practices. And for good reason. For example: annually, there are over 100,000 + DEATHS caused by medical malpractice annually in the USA. A study by Healthgrades found that an average of 195,000 hospital deaths in each of the years 2000, 2001 and 2002 in the U.S. were due to potentially preventable medical errors. A 2001 study in JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association) estimated that only 1 in 10,000 patients admitted to the hospital would have lived for 3 months or more had "optimal" care been provided.

Independent studies have concluded that up to 60% of all surgeries are completely unnecessary.
These unnecessary surgeries are performed because they are cash cows for the medical community. Along with that, literally millions of prescriptions are written for patients, often with extremely damaging side effects.

Isn’t it wonderful that our all caring, Big Brother Government is attempting to FORCE such a wonderful system upon us all? So much for individual freedom!

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iwog   Sat, 13 Mar 2010, 4:20am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 18

The Little Guy Lobby says

I don’t want our government to pass any healthcare bill, because it will be totally in favor of the corporations. I hate the way it is and I would hate the way it might be. Basically, we are totally screwed.
There is no way out. Head for the hills. It’s everyone for themselves now.

That's why the Democrats failed when they didn't propose Canadian style single payer health care. By not being unified, Democrats shot themselves in the foot.

On the bright side, Canada isn't too far away.

tatupu70   Sat, 13 Mar 2010, 5:20am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 19

This entire thread strikes me as slightly ironic. The poster complains about how many problems we have with our current health care system, but then ends it by saying he doesn't want to change it. How does that make sense?

elliemae   Sat, 13 Mar 2010, 6:40am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 20

The Little Guy Lobby made that comment.

Ray Ray is the one who started this thread, which lapsed into a discussion as to why I believe his posts are laughable based on his inability to state a coherent thesis. This is due to his lack of command of the english language, and the flawed conclusions he comes up with.

That, and I questioned why he insists upon calling me names, which detract from his message, whatever it might possibly be.

And then there's his constant childish demands to have others admit that he's right.

After which, the original message, which most of us have forgotten and with which many of us disagreed due to his failure to factually substantiate his position, was lost.

Yep, that'll about sum it up.

elliemae   Sat, 13 Mar 2010, 8:37am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 21

I'm not saying that alternative treatments don't work - but sometimes they're no replacement for modern medicine. I've seen a lot of people die trying ozone treatments and vegetarian diets and vitamins and - well, you get the picture.

Some people say that natural is the only way to go. I wouldn't be walking right now if I listened to them. It's important to understand that some treatments work for some, but there isn't any one treatment that works every time.

People who are critically ill grasp at any type of cure possible. I've seen people spend thousands of dollars trying to get better right before they die.

RayAmerica   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 1:46am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 22

elliemae says

That, and I questioned why he insists upon calling me names, which detract from his message, whatever it might possibly be.

LOL !! Please copy and paste exactly where and when I "called you names."

RayAmerica   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 1:48am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 23

elliemae says

And then there’s his constant childish demands to have others admit that he’s right.

More LOL !! Again, copy and paste where and when I ever "demanded" others to admit I'm right. LOL

RayAmerica   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 1:57am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 24

Zlxr Excellent post. This is precisely where I'm coming from. Modern "medicine" usually has two cures that they offer; surgery or pills. As stated before, independent studies have confirmed that up to 60% of all surgeries performed in the USA are not necessary. When it comes to big pharma ... listen to their adds, all of them have a long list of potential harmful side effects. And yet, when people look into alternative treatments for illnesses, they are considered "crackpots." To illustrate that point read Kevin's comment.

Kevin   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 3:43am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 25

RayAmerica says

Zlxr Excellent post. This is precisely where I’m coming from. Modern “medicine” usually has two cures that they offer; surgery or pills. As stated before, independent studies have confirmed that up to 60% of all surgeries performed in the USA are not necessary. When it comes to big pharma … listen to their adds, all of them have a long list of potential harmful side effects. And yet, when people look into alternative treatments for illnesses, they are considered “crackpots.” To illustrate that point read Kevin’s comment.

Your problem is that you're equating anything not involving surgery or controlled medications as "alternative", which isn't remotely true. Medical professionals routinely prescribe what they feel is the best way to treat an ailment -- sometimes that means a prescription, sometimes it means surgery, sometimes it means "stick some ice on it", sometimes it means "get more sleep", sometimes it means massage, sometimes it means eating better.

However, things like homeopathy *ARE* crackpot bullshit with absolutely no basis in reality, and the people peddling them should be ashamed of themselves.

Oh, but of course whatever treatment that you want to advocate that has never shown results in any scientific study *MUST* just be getting covered up by the pharmaceutical lobby.

elliemae   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 3:49am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 26

RayAmerica says

It must be very difficult for Leftists to admit they’re WRONG.

RayAmerica says

Sorry for the dot dot dots …. back to the real …. issue. Are you willing to admit that you were wrong?

RayAmerica says

elliemae says


I love the english language. You might want to try learning it.

Obviously, you’ve been sitting by the phone all this time and Brad Pitt hasn’t called. It has made you very, very bitter. Give it up and move on dot org.

to IWOG:
RayAmerica says

Just a wild guess … are you perhaps, a very unhappy, disgruntled, downtrodden, non-unionized WalMart employee? You sure sound like one. LOL

RayAmerica says

How, may I ask, do you know whether or not I’m of Hispanic origin? Your challenge to learn English would be a highly offensive, politically incorrect, xonophobic, downright mean and nasty comment … that is of course if I were Hispanic. Intente por favor ser un poco más sensative.

"It appears being WRONG makes you very, very sleepy."
"That was a mean, nasty, IWOGy type of statement to make."
"Apparently, you’ve had lots of experience on a couch having everything psycho analyzed and think that your therapeutic sessions have a broad, generalized application to the real world."
"Liberals continue to prove they are hypocrites."
"You need to quit taking yourself so seriously. No one else does, so why should you?"
"Upon reflection, you have to admit that statement is about as trite as it gets."
"You HAVE to madate it."
"Another idiotic assumption. I’m an independent. I didn’t realize that was a “party.”

elliemae   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 3:51am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 27

RayAmerica says

Zlxr Excellent post. This is precisely where I’m coming from. Modern “medicine” usually has two cures that they offer; surgery or pills. As stated before, independent studies have confirmed that up to 60% of all surgeries performed in the USA are not necessary. When it comes to big pharma … listen to their adds, all of them have a long list of potential harmful side effects. And yet, when people look into alternative treatments for illnesses, they are considered “crackpots.” To illustrate that point read Kevin’s comment.

You forgot to mention Physical Therapy, Occupational Therapy, Speech Therapy...

RayAmerica   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 8:05am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 28

elliemae says

RayAmerica says
It must be very difficult for Leftists to admit they’re WRONG.
RayAmerica says
Sorry for the dot dot dots …. back to the real …. issue. Are you willing to admit that you were wrong?
RayAmerica says
elliemae says

I love the english language. You might want to try learning it.

Obviously, you’ve been sitting by the phone all this time and Brad Pitt hasn’t called. It has made you very, very bitter. Give it up and move on dot org.
to IWOG:
RayAmerica says
Just a wild guess … are you perhaps, a very unhappy, disgruntled, downtrodden, non-unionized WalMart employee? You sure sound like one. LOL
RayAmerica says
How, may I ask, do you know whether or not I’m of Hispanic origin? Your challenge to learn English would be a highly offensive, politically incorrect, xonophobic, downright mean and nasty comment … that is of course if I were Hispanic. Intente por favor ser un poco más sensative.
“It appears being WRONG makes you very, very sleepy.”
“That was a mean, nasty, IWOGy type of statement to make.”
“Apparently, you’ve had lots of experience on a couch having everything psycho analyzed and think that your therapeutic sessions have a broad, generalized application to the real world.”
“Liberals continue to prove they are hypocrites.”
“You need to quit taking yourself so seriously. No one else does, so why should you?”
“Upon reflection, you have to admit that statement is about as trite as it gets.”
“You HAVE to madate it.”
“Another idiotic assumption. I’m an independent. I didn’t realize that was a “party.”

I asked you to provide proof that I've called YOU names .... and you answer by writing a book. Nice to know you've spent the better part of a nice day wasting your time on this. LOL

elliemae   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 9:54am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 29

RayAmerica says

I asked you to provide proof that I’ve called YOU names …. and you answer by writing a book. Nice to know you’ve spent the better part of a nice day wasting your time on this. LOL

Okay, I'll bite. "bitter" and "xonophobic" (sp) aren't names?

I didn't spend the better part of a nice day with those examples of your rudeness and inability to participate in a discussion, although I did spend about ten minutes on it. And the books that I write are substantially longer than 264 words.

I believe that your posts are laughable based on your inability to state a coherent thesis. This is due to your lack of command of the english language, and the flawed conclusions you come up with. I forgot to mention that you YELL alot, too. You are difficult to take seriously.

Nomograph   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 10:10am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 30

This thread is amazing.

elliemae   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 10:32am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 31

Nomo - I can't figure what it's about. I shoulda cut bait long ago. But I cannot look away.

RayAmerica   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 11:03am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 32

elliemae says

Okay, I’ll bite. “bitter” and “xonophobic” (sp) aren’t names?

uhhhh, no, they are not names. LOL

frodo   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 11:11am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 33

RayAmerica says

elliemae says

Okay, I’ll bite. “bitter” and “xonophobic” (sp) aren’t names?

uhhhh, no, they are not names. LOL

Yes, yes they are, I named my Parrot 'Bitter', because he always says: "Squaaaak. . . Crappy food. . . SQUAAAAAK!', and I named my red Gunea Pig: 'xonophobic', (actually xenophobic) because he does not get along the tan ones.

RayAmerica   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 11:25am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 34

elliemae says

Ray Ray is the one who started this thread, which lapsed into a discussion as to why I believe his posts are laughable based on his inability to state a coherent thesis. This is due to his lack of command of the english language, and the flawed conclusions he comes up with.

elliemae says

The OP is saying that he/she trusts the Realtor even tho he lives in another state; we’re merely pointing out that our experience is that Realtors’ jobs are to sell houses. Their salary depends upon someone buying the property, and I don’t trust them because that makes it that they’re working for themselves.

Great "command" there elliemae, particularly that last sentence. LOL !!

elliemae   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 11:28am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 35

Well, if frodo says they're names, that's good enough for me.

elliemae   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 11:29am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 36

RayAmerica says

elliemae says


Ray Ray is the one who started this thread, which lapsed into a discussion as to why I believe his posts are laughable based on his inability to state a coherent thesis. This is due to his lack of command of the english language, and the flawed conclusions he comes up with.

elliemae says
The OP is saying that he/she trusts the Realtor even tho he lives in another state; we’re merely pointing out that our experience is that Realtors’ jobs are to sell houses. Their salary depends upon someone buying the property, and I don’t trust them because that makes it that they’re working for themselves.
Great “command” there elliemae, particularly that last sentence. LOL !!

yea, well, I wrote the book...

Vicente   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 1:18am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 37

Wait, I thought Right-Thinking Americans trusted corporations. I'm all confused now.

elliemae   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 1:38am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 38

Nah - I'm not saying that alternative treatments can't be effective. It's just that for every one that's effective (chiropractic, accupunture, accupressure, Ayurveda, etc), there's a pie-in-the-sky treatment that's touted as the latest, greatest thing. People want to be cured so badly that they'll buy anything, and there's always someone waiting in the wings to take their money. For example:

http://www.healthcastle.com/coralcalcium-scam.shtml
According to the coral calcium infomercial, taking coral calcium can cure up to 200 human diseases including heart disease, cancer, diabetes etc.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/cancer.html
Antineoplastons, Protocel, CSCT, Gerson Method (coffee enemas plus low sodium diet including more than a gallon a day of juices made from fruits, vegetables, and raw calf's liver), hyperoxygenation therapies, laetrile, psychic surgery... and the latest, greatest - the acai berry. It "cures" everything, makes you lose weight, etc. It slices, dices, chops & purees!

Let's talk weight loss:

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2009/01/trudeau.shtm
A federal judge has ordered infomercial marketer Kevin Trudeau to pay more than $37 million for violating a 2004 stipulated order by misrepresenting the content of his book, “The Weight Loss Cure ‘They’ Don’t Want You to Know About.”

http://www.diet-blog.com/archives/2007/11/14/7_ways_to_spot_a_weight_loss_scam.php

Our modern system isn't perfect and I've seen some horrible stuff - people treated for diseases they didn't have, surgeries performed on the wrong limb, people who died... But it does help many, many people. We need to offer payment for certain treatments, but where does one draw the line?

elliemae   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 2:56am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 39

Zlxr says

Pay attention to Drs. who discover what works instead of trying to put them out of business.

Many docs will prescribe antibiotics rather than have to deal with angry moms who want a pill for little Johnny. I get that. I also get that we don't lend enough credibility to alternative medicines. But we need to fix healthcare overall, and this means a honest dialog.

I've yet to hear one.

elliemae   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 7:52am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 40

Zlxr says

What, in your opinion is an honest dialog?

one by & for those who make the laws. I don't think any of them are reading patnet.

simchaland   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 7:53am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 41

Ugh!

I'm so tired of allegedly "intelligent" people from Berkeley, San Francisco, Marin County, and Santa Cruz throwing out science for superstition.

Look, vaccines work and they don't cause autism. Look up the actual scientific studies, not the ones that use fear mongering and "woo-woo pseudo-science." I can't wait to see the children of these Marin/Santa Cruz "genuises" wiped out by Measels, Mumps, Diptheria, Tetanus, and Whooping Cough. Most likely they'll still find a way to demonize Western Medicine as the villian that killed their children somehow when the fault will lie squarely on their shoulders.

I agree that anti-biotics get over prescribed. However, allowing your child to live with strep throat and allow his/her immune system to fight it off with "homeopathic/naturopathic supportive medicine" will most likely lead to that child developing Scarlet Fever which is deadly. Heck, strep throat could be deadly, and it spreads like wildfire in schools where your children congregate.

I agree that many doctors are too quick to prescribe pain pills. And instead, now we have doctors who are afraid to prescribe narcotic pain relievers to patients who really need it due to the "War on Drugs" and our geniuses from Marin/Santa Cruz feeding irrational fear over addiction and possible side effects. Sometimes pain is worse than the possibility of becoming dependent on medication to have a good quality of life. Sometimes accupuncture, biofeedback, physical therapy, chiropractic work, chakra alignments, feng shui, traditional chinese herbal medicine, tens units, tiger balm, Reiki, heating pads, ice packs, meridian balancing, massage, prayer, meditation, cupping, breathwork, shamanistic practices, yoga, tai chi, rebirthing, sound and vibrational healing, herbal cleanses, visualization, hypnosis, fasting, psychotherapy, changes in diet, crystal healings, accupressure, exercise, magnets, copper bracelets, and aura cleansing don't provide enough relief. That's why we have pain medicine.

And these geniuses who are so quick to take herbal supplements and homeopathic drugs should remember that herbs, plants, and animals are the sources for the "dirty" "chemical compounds" that our prescribed medications offer. These herbal supplements and homeopathic drugs have similar side-effect profiles and require you to take massive doses to get a benefit, usually. And an herb usually includes compounds that aren't necessarily the compounds you need, rather than being able to separate out the compound that treats your particular ailment. So you could be "over medicating" with herbs. And you don't know how the herbs were grown (with or without pesticides and polluted soil and water) and you don't know the true potency of the herbs you're taking because they don't undergo any regulatory testing for potency.

elliemae   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 9:18am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 42

Pain is the 4th vital sign. People have pain, and it's important to treat it.

simchaland says

I agree that many doctors are too quick to prescribe pain pills. And instead, now we have doctors who are afraid to prescribe narcotic pain relievers to patients who really need it due to the “War on Drugs” and our geniuses from Marin/Santa Cruz feeding irrational fear over addiction and possible side effects. Sometimes pain is worse than the possibility of becoming dependent on medication to have a good quality of life. Sometimes accupuncture, biofeedback, physical therapy, chiropractic work, chakra alignments, feng shui, traditional chinese herbal medicine, tens units, tiger balm, Reiki, heating pads, ice packs, meridian balancing, massage, cupping, breathwork, shamanistic practices, yoga, tai chi, rebirthing, sound and vibrational healing, crystal healings, accupressure, exercise, and aura cleansing don’t provide enough relief. That’s why we have pain medicine.

Medications should be used in conjunction with other treatments. But sometimes drugs are all that will work. That's why we have drugs.

I know someone who's a Reiki "master;" she is so good at it she can do it for someone hundreds of miles away. She's also a homeopathic healer of some sort, loves herbs and tells people how to treat themselves naturally.

She's sick alot.

simchaland   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 9:26am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 43

elliemae says

Pain is the 4th vital sign. People have pain, and it’s important to treat it.
simchaland says


I agree that many doctors are too quick to prescribe pain pills... Sometimes pain is worse than the possibility of becoming dependent on medication to have a good quality of life. Sometimes accupuncture, biofeedback, physical therapy, chiropractic work, chakra alignments, feng shui... That’s why we have pain medicine.

Medications should be used in conjunction with other treatments. But sometimes drugs are all that will work. That’s why we have drugs.
I know someone who’s a Reiki “master;” she is so good at it she can do it for someone hundreds of miles away. She’s also a homeopathic healer of some sort, loves herbs and tells people how to treat themselves naturally.
She’s sick alot.

Yeah, I find that many people who chose to be "holistic" without using any "Western Medicine" at all have many physical and sometimes mental complaints. I was educated in the holistic healing arts as a psychotherapist on a graduate school level. "Holistic" means looking at the ENTIRE person to help that person to acheive balance to allow for healing to happen. In my view "Holistic Medicine" includes all of those so-called "Alternative Treatments" and "Western Medicine." If you are going to go holistic, go all the way and exclude nothing that could be of assistance.

Vicente   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 9:40am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 44

A friend of a friend believes that drinking vitamin juice supplment will cure his brain cancer. This has not worked out too well to date.

Most credible stats I have read put malpractice injuries under 1% and death far below that. No system is perfect it just needs to strive to be.

simchaland   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 9:43am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 45

Vicente says

A friend of a friend believes that drinking vitamin juice supplment will cure his brain cancer. This has not worked out too well to date.

I had a professor at that holistic studies school who was using hot springs, "watsu" (Shiatsu massage in a hot spring), living "in tune with nature," herbal supplements, a vegan diet, and shamanistic practices to cure his cancer. He refused any treatment by "Western Doctors." He died of cancer within the year or two that the "Western Doctors" told him he'd live without treatment when they diagnosed him. He was only in his 60's.

elliemae   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 11:17am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 46

There was one occasion that I sprained an ankle and was up on a mountain, took us about 2 hours to get back to a hospital (thought it was broken or I don't think I would have bothered). After telling myself not to let it hurt for about half an hour, the pain went away. I took no meds. I'm sure the swelling helped to stablize it - but the pain only returned after I hit the hospital. Then they gave me drugs. All was good.

Mind-over-matter can help sometimes. A positive attitude can help. But it's not a cure-all, it just made my situation more bearable for awhile.

Honest Abe   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 12:23pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 47

Since this is a real estate site - how about this? How much outrage would there be in America if everyone who bought a house would have to make the payments for four years BEFORE they could move in? Thats insane, isn't it?

Welcome to National Healthless Care.

Vicente   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 12:24pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 48

Sounds like a down payment.

elliemae   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 12:27pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 49

When you see a doc, you're paying for his opinion. If you don't like his opinion, find another doc. There are many who believe in being conservative, many who believe in being aggressive. I've seen people who received chemo/radiation and severely impeded their quality at the end of their life - but they refused to give up hope. Is it for us to tell them they can't have hope? Some people have recovered when no one thought that they would.

I do believe that it's unethical for physicians to refer to companies in which they have a financial interest - such as equipment companies, home health, hospice, medical supplies, etc. Patients have a choice but the docs don't tell them that. It also shouldn't be legal for hospital corporations to own and refer to their home health or hospice providers and skilled nursing or acute rehabilitations. But it happens.

I recently went to an asshole doctor who accused me of trying to scam the system. I've done my best to tell as many people as possible what a total jerk piece of shit he is and to encourage them to find a physician who treats patients with dignity and respect. I also found another physician and am receiving the necessary treatment. Shit happens - the asshole's opinion didn't mean shit to me but I have created a dent in his wallet and will continue to do so. My opinion is that he needs another job or a psychiatrist.

Honest Abe   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 1:54pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 50

Its starting to stink in the White House. BO promised millions of jobs, promised to keep a lid on unemployment, promised transparancy in government, and promised to bring the troops home. If we can't trust him on any of his promises - why should we believe anything he says about healthless care?

Necessity si the plea for every infringment of human freedom, it is the argument of tyrants.

Honest Abe   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 1:56pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 51

One more time: Necessity IS the plea for every infringement of human freedom, it is the argument of tyrants.

Kevin   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 4:25pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 52

Honest Abe says

One more time: Necessity IS the plea for every infringement of human freedom, it is the argument of tyrants.

It's also the argument of everyone who isn't an anarchist. The natural state of humanity is absolute freedom -- you can do anything you want. However, as intelligent creatures we've collectively decide to surrender some of our inherent freedoms in order to gain some personal security. It's necessary to take away my freedom to murder people, because if I had that freedom then some people would probably be dead.

I hear that tyrants like to drink water and breathe air.

Paralithodes   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 10:34pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 53

Kevin says

Honest Abe says


One more time: Necessity IS the plea for every infringement of human freedom, it is the argument of tyrants.

It’s also the argument of everyone who isn’t an anarchist. The natural state of humanity is absolute freedom — you can do anything you want. However, as intelligent creatures we’ve collectively decide to surrender some of our inherent freedoms in order to gain some personal security. It’s necessary to take away my freedom to murder people, because if I had that freedom then some people would probably be dead.
I hear that tyrants like to drink water and breathe air.

What you say might be true, but it in no way refutes what HA claimed. Nice diversionary attempt, though.

Paralithodes   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 10:35pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 54

Vicente says

Sounds like a down payment.

Wow, you've provided downpayments for your homes 4 years in advance? Sounds like a forward contract / speculating.

tatupu70   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 10:43pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 55

Honest Abe says

Its starting to stink in the White House. BO promised millions of jobs, promised to keep a lid on unemployment, promised transparancy in government, and promised to bring the troops home. If we can’t trust him on any of his promises - why should we believe anything he says about healthless care?

Well, let's see:

1. He's passed multiple jobs bills and unemployment has stabilized from it's sharp spike when he took office.
2. Transparancy hasn't been achieved. That one is a failure so far
3. Troops have been steadily withdrawn from Iraq. Last I checked, the troop levels were the lowest since the invasion.

So, he's 2 for 3. Not great, but not completely untrustworthy..

Paralithodes   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 10:55pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 56

Yes, he's 2 for 3 if you:

a) ignore direct predictions of what would and wouldn't happen if the stimulus bill was/wasn't passed, and ignore the claims that this would go towards private sector stimulus instead of propping up government...

b) credit Obama for Bush's withdrawal plan and ignore that Obama campaigned on more immediate withdrawal (except for "suggesting" to the Iraqis that withdrawals already planned to occur before the election be delayed until afterwards...)...

Question... Can anyone answer why stimulus funds were used to increase the transit benefits for Federal workers in the DC area who were already employed and regularly commuting to their jobs? How exactly did this "stimulate" anything and help create jobs? (The question of why they have transit benefits in the first place is a separate question.).

Kevin   Sat, 20 Mar 2010, 4:13pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 57

Paralithodes says

What you say might be true, but it in no way refutes what HA claimed. Nice diversionary attempt, though.

Wow, you guys really are dense.

I completely agree with what Abe said -- but he misses the point entirely. EVERY infringement on human freedom, including things like laws preventing you from murdering, raping, and stealing, is created out of necessity. Of course "tyrants" claim that they want to take away freedoms out of necessity; that's the argument that's *ALWAYS* given for taking away freedoms.

So, again: Tyrants drink water! And breathe air!

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