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National Healthcare ... is it really "healthy?"


By RayAmerica   Follow   Sat, 13 Mar 2010, 12:31am PST   3,670 views   57 comments   Watch (0)   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

“We MUST all have Healthcare …. NOW …. Before more people die without it!” That’s the mantra, but is it really true? There are millions of intelligent people that do not trust traditional medical practices. And for good reason. For example: annually, there are over 100,000 + DEATHS caused by medical malpractice annually in the USA. A study by Healthgrades found that an average of 195,000 hospital deaths in each of the years 2000, 2001 and 2002 in the U.S. were due to potentially preventable medical errors. A 2001 study in JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association) estimated that only 1 in 10,000 patients admitted to the hospital would have lived for 3 months or more had "optimal" care been provided.

Independent studies have concluded that up to 60% of all surgeries are completely unnecessary.
These unnecessary surgeries are performed because they are cash cows for the medical community. Along with that, literally millions of prescriptions are written for patients, often with extremely damaging side effects.

Isn’t it wonderful that our all caring, Big Brother Government is attempting to FORCE such a wonderful system upon us all? So much for individual freedom!

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iwog   befriend   ignore   Sat, 13 Mar 2010, 4:20am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 18

The Little Guy Lobby says

I don’t want our government to pass any healthcare bill, because it will be totally in favor of the corporations. I hate the way it is and I would hate the way it might be. Basically, we are totally screwed.
There is no way out. Head for the hills. It’s everyone for themselves now.

That's why the Democrats failed when they didn't propose Canadian style single payer health care. By not being unified, Democrats shot themselves in the foot.

On the bright side, Canada isn't too far away.

tatupu70   befriend   ignore   Sat, 13 Mar 2010, 5:20am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 19

This entire thread strikes me as slightly ironic. The poster complains about how many problems we have with our current health care system, but then ends it by saying he doesn't want to change it. How does that make sense?

elliemae   befriend   ignore   Sat, 13 Mar 2010, 6:40am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 20

The Little Guy Lobby made that comment.

Ray Ray is the one who started this thread, which lapsed into a discussion as to why I believe his posts are laughable based on his inability to state a coherent thesis. This is due to his lack of command of the english language, and the flawed conclusions he comes up with.

That, and I questioned why he insists upon calling me names, which detract from his message, whatever it might possibly be.

And then there's his constant childish demands to have others admit that he's right.

After which, the original message, which most of us have forgotten and with which many of us disagreed due to his failure to factually substantiate his position, was lost.

Yep, that'll about sum it up.

elliemae   befriend   ignore   Sat, 13 Mar 2010, 8:37am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 21

I'm not saying that alternative treatments don't work - but sometimes they're no replacement for modern medicine. I've seen a lot of people die trying ozone treatments and vegetarian diets and vitamins and - well, you get the picture.

Some people say that natural is the only way to go. I wouldn't be walking right now if I listened to them. It's important to understand that some treatments work for some, but there isn't any one treatment that works every time.

People who are critically ill grasp at any type of cure possible. I've seen people spend thousands of dollars trying to get better right before they die.

RayAmerica   befriend   ignore   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 1:46am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 22

elliemae says

That, and I questioned why he insists upon calling me names, which detract from his message, whatever it might possibly be.

LOL !! Please copy and paste exactly where and when I "called you names."

RayAmerica   befriend   ignore   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 1:48am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 23

elliemae says

And then there’s his constant childish demands to have others admit that he’s right.

More LOL !! Again, copy and paste where and when I ever "demanded" others to admit I'm right. LOL

RayAmerica   befriend   ignore   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 1:57am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 24

Zlxr Excellent post. This is precisely where I'm coming from. Modern "medicine" usually has two cures that they offer; surgery or pills. As stated before, independent studies have confirmed that up to 60% of all surgeries performed in the USA are not necessary. When it comes to big pharma ... listen to their adds, all of them have a long list of potential harmful side effects. And yet, when people look into alternative treatments for illnesses, they are considered "crackpots." To illustrate that point read Kevin's comment.

Kevin   befriend   ignore   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 3:43am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 25

RayAmerica says

Zlxr Excellent post. This is precisely where I’m coming from. Modern “medicine” usually has two cures that they offer; surgery or pills. As stated before, independent studies have confirmed that up to 60% of all surgeries performed in the USA are not necessary. When it comes to big pharma … listen to their adds, all of them have a long list of potential harmful side effects. And yet, when people look into alternative treatments for illnesses, they are considered “crackpots.” To illustrate that point read Kevin’s comment.

Your problem is that you're equating anything not involving surgery or controlled medications as "alternative", which isn't remotely true. Medical professionals routinely prescribe what they feel is the best way to treat an ailment -- sometimes that means a prescription, sometimes it means surgery, sometimes it means "stick some ice on it", sometimes it means "get more sleep", sometimes it means massage, sometimes it means eating better.

However, things like homeopathy *ARE* crackpot bullshit with absolutely no basis in reality, and the people peddling them should be ashamed of themselves.

Oh, but of course whatever treatment that you want to advocate that has never shown results in any scientific study *MUST* just be getting covered up by the pharmaceutical lobby.

elliemae   befriend   ignore   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 3:49am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 26

RayAmerica says

It must be very difficult for Leftists to admit they’re WRONG.

RayAmerica says

Sorry for the dot dot dots …. back to the real …. issue. Are you willing to admit that you were wrong?

RayAmerica says

elliemae says


I love the english language. You might want to try learning it.

Obviously, you’ve been sitting by the phone all this time and Brad Pitt hasn’t called. It has made you very, very bitter. Give it up and move on dot org.

to IWOG:
RayAmerica says

Just a wild guess … are you perhaps, a very unhappy, disgruntled, downtrodden, non-unionized WalMart employee? You sure sound like one. LOL

RayAmerica says

How, may I ask, do you know whether or not I’m of Hispanic origin? Your challenge to learn English would be a highly offensive, politically incorrect, xonophobic, downright mean and nasty comment … that is of course if I were Hispanic. Intente por favor ser un poco más sensative.

"It appears being WRONG makes you very, very sleepy."
"That was a mean, nasty, IWOGy type of statement to make."
"Apparently, you’ve had lots of experience on a couch having everything psycho analyzed and think that your therapeutic sessions have a broad, generalized application to the real world."
"Liberals continue to prove they are hypocrites."
"You need to quit taking yourself so seriously. No one else does, so why should you?"
"Upon reflection, you have to admit that statement is about as trite as it gets."
"You HAVE to madate it."
"Another idiotic assumption. I’m an independent. I didn’t realize that was a “party.”

elliemae   befriend   ignore   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 3:51am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 27

RayAmerica says

Zlxr Excellent post. This is precisely where I’m coming from. Modern “medicine” usually has two cures that they offer; surgery or pills. As stated before, independent studies have confirmed that up to 60% of all surgeries performed in the USA are not necessary. When it comes to big pharma … listen to their adds, all of them have a long list of potential harmful side effects. And yet, when people look into alternative treatments for illnesses, they are considered “crackpots.” To illustrate that point read Kevin’s comment.

You forgot to mention Physical Therapy, Occupational Therapy, Speech Therapy...

RayAmerica   befriend   ignore   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 8:05am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 28

elliemae says

RayAmerica says
It must be very difficult for Leftists to admit they’re WRONG.
RayAmerica says
Sorry for the dot dot dots …. back to the real …. issue. Are you willing to admit that you were wrong?
RayAmerica says
elliemae says

I love the english language. You might want to try learning it.

Obviously, you’ve been sitting by the phone all this time and Brad Pitt hasn’t called. It has made you very, very bitter. Give it up and move on dot org.
to IWOG:
RayAmerica says
Just a wild guess … are you perhaps, a very unhappy, disgruntled, downtrodden, non-unionized WalMart employee? You sure sound like one. LOL
RayAmerica says
How, may I ask, do you know whether or not I’m of Hispanic origin? Your challenge to learn English would be a highly offensive, politically incorrect, xonophobic, downright mean and nasty comment … that is of course if I were Hispanic. Intente por favor ser un poco más sensative.
“It appears being WRONG makes you very, very sleepy.”
“That was a mean, nasty, IWOGy type of statement to make.”
“Apparently, you’ve had lots of experience on a couch having everything psycho analyzed and think that your therapeutic sessions have a broad, generalized application to the real world.”
“Liberals continue to prove they are hypocrites.”
“You need to quit taking yourself so seriously. No one else does, so why should you?”
“Upon reflection, you have to admit that statement is about as trite as it gets.”
“You HAVE to madate it.”
“Another idiotic assumption. I’m an independent. I didn’t realize that was a “party.”

I asked you to provide proof that I've called YOU names .... and you answer by writing a book. Nice to know you've spent the better part of a nice day wasting your time on this. LOL

elliemae   befriend   ignore   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 9:54am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 29

RayAmerica says

I asked you to provide proof that I’ve called YOU names …. and you answer by writing a book. Nice to know you’ve spent the better part of a nice day wasting your time on this. LOL

Okay, I'll bite. "bitter" and "xonophobic" (sp) aren't names?

I didn't spend the better part of a nice day with those examples of your rudeness and inability to participate in a discussion, although I did spend about ten minutes on it. And the books that I write are substantially longer than 264 words.

I believe that your posts are laughable based on your inability to state a coherent thesis. This is due to your lack of command of the english language, and the flawed conclusions you come up with. I forgot to mention that you YELL alot, too. You are difficult to take seriously.

Nomograph   befriend   ignore   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 10:10am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 30

This thread is amazing.

elliemae   befriend   ignore   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 10:32am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 31

Nomo - I can't figure what it's about. I shoulda cut bait long ago. But I cannot look away.

RayAmerica   befriend   ignore   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 11:03am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 32

elliemae says

Okay, I’ll bite. “bitter” and “xonophobic” (sp) aren’t names?

uhhhh, no, they are not names. LOL

frodo   befriend   ignore   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 11:11am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 33

RayAmerica says

elliemae says

Okay, I’ll bite. “bitter” and “xonophobic” (sp) aren’t names?

uhhhh, no, they are not names. LOL

Yes, yes they are, I named my Parrot 'Bitter', because he always says: "Squaaaak. . . Crappy food. . . SQUAAAAAK!', and I named my red Gunea Pig: 'xonophobic', (actually xenophobic) because he does not get along the tan ones.

RayAmerica   befriend   ignore   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 11:25am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 34

elliemae says

Ray Ray is the one who started this thread, which lapsed into a discussion as to why I believe his posts are laughable based on his inability to state a coherent thesis. This is due to his lack of command of the english language, and the flawed conclusions he comes up with.

elliemae says

The OP is saying that he/she trusts the Realtor even tho he lives in another state; we’re merely pointing out that our experience is that Realtors’ jobs are to sell houses. Their salary depends upon someone buying the property, and I don’t trust them because that makes it that they’re working for themselves.

Great "command" there elliemae, particularly that last sentence. LOL !!

elliemae   befriend   ignore   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 11:28am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 35

Well, if frodo says they're names, that's good enough for me.

elliemae   befriend   ignore   Sun, 14 Mar 2010, 11:29am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 36

RayAmerica says

elliemae says


Ray Ray is the one who started this thread, which lapsed into a discussion as to why I believe his posts are laughable based on his inability to state a coherent thesis. This is due to his lack of command of the english language, and the flawed conclusions he comes up with.

elliemae says
The OP is saying that he/she trusts the Realtor even tho he lives in another state; we’re merely pointing out that our experience is that Realtors’ jobs are to sell houses. Their salary depends upon someone buying the property, and I don’t trust them because that makes it that they’re working for themselves.
Great “command” there elliemae, particularly that last sentence. LOL !!

yea, well, I wrote the book...

Vicente   befriend   ignore   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 1:18am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 37

Wait, I thought Right-Thinking Americans trusted corporations. I'm all confused now.

elliemae   befriend   ignore   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 1:38am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 38

Nah - I'm not saying that alternative treatments can't be effective. It's just that for every one that's effective (chiropractic, accupunture, accupressure, Ayurveda, etc), there's a pie-in-the-sky treatment that's touted as the latest, greatest thing. People want to be cured so badly that they'll buy anything, and there's always someone waiting in the wings to take their money. For example:

http://www.healthcastle.com/coralcalcium-scam.shtml
According to the coral calcium infomercial, taking coral calcium can cure up to 200 human diseases including heart disease, cancer, diabetes etc.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/cancer.html
Antineoplastons, Protocel, CSCT, Gerson Method (coffee enemas plus low sodium diet including more than a gallon a day of juices made from fruits, vegetables, and raw calf's liver), hyperoxygenation therapies, laetrile, psychic surgery... and the latest, greatest - the acai berry. It "cures" everything, makes you lose weight, etc. It slices, dices, chops & purees!

Let's talk weight loss:

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2009/01/trudeau.shtm
A federal judge has ordered infomercial marketer Kevin Trudeau to pay more than $37 million for violating a 2004 stipulated order by misrepresenting the content of his book, “The Weight Loss Cure ‘They’ Don’t Want You to Know About.”

http://www.diet-blog.com/archives/2007/11/14/7_ways_to_spot_a_weight_loss_scam.php

Our modern system isn't perfect and I've seen some horrible stuff - people treated for diseases they didn't have, surgeries performed on the wrong limb, people who died... But it does help many, many people. We need to offer payment for certain treatments, but where does one draw the line?

elliemae   befriend   ignore   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 2:56am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 39

Zlxr says

Pay attention to Drs. who discover what works instead of trying to put them out of business.

Many docs will prescribe antibiotics rather than have to deal with angry moms who want a pill for little Johnny. I get that. I also get that we don't lend enough credibility to alternative medicines. But we need to fix healthcare overall, and this means a honest dialog.

I've yet to hear one.

elliemae   befriend   ignore   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 7:52am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 40

Zlxr says

What, in your opinion is an honest dialog?

one by & for those who make the laws. I don't think any of them are reading patnet.

simchaland   befriend   ignore   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 7:53am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 41

Ugh!

I'm so tired of allegedly "intelligent" people from Berkeley, San Francisco, Marin County, and Santa Cruz throwing out science for superstition.

Look, vaccines work and they don't cause autism. Look up the actual scientific studies, not the ones that use fear mongering and "woo-woo pseudo-science." I can't wait to see the children of these Marin/Santa Cruz "genuises" wiped out by Measels, Mumps, Diptheria, Tetanus, and Whooping Cough. Most likely they'll still find a way to demonize Western Medicine as the villian that killed their children somehow when the fault will lie squarely on their shoulders.

I agree that anti-biotics get over prescribed. However, allowing your child to live with strep throat and allow his/her immune system to fight it off with "homeopathic/naturopathic supportive medicine" will most likely lead to that child developing Scarlet Fever which is deadly. Heck, strep throat could be deadly, and it spreads like wildfire in schools where your children congregate.

I agree that many doctors are too quick to prescribe pain pills. And instead, now we have doctors who are afraid to prescribe narcotic pain relievers to patients who really need it due to the "War on Drugs" and our geniuses from Marin/Santa Cruz feeding irrational fear over addiction and possible side effects. Sometimes pain is worse than the possibility of becoming dependent on medication to have a good quality of life. Sometimes accupuncture, biofeedback, physical therapy, chiropractic work, chakra alignments, feng shui, traditional chinese herbal medicine, tens units, tiger balm, Reiki, heating pads, ice packs, meridian balancing, massage, prayer, meditation, cupping, breathwork, shamanistic practices, yoga, tai chi, rebirthing, sound and vibrational healing, herbal cleanses, visualization, hypnosis, fasting, psychotherapy, changes in diet, crystal healings, accupressure, exercise, magnets, copper bracelets, and aura cleansing don't provide enough relief. That's why we have pain medicine.

And these geniuses who are so quick to take herbal supplements and homeopathic drugs should remember that herbs, plants, and animals are the sources for the "dirty" "chemical compounds" that our prescribed medications offer. These herbal supplements and homeopathic drugs have similar side-effect profiles and require you to take massive doses to get a benefit, usually. And an herb usually includes compounds that aren't necessarily the compounds you need, rather than being able to separate out the compound that treats your particular ailment. So you could be "over medicating" with herbs. And you don't know how the herbs were grown (with or without pesticides and polluted soil and water) and you don't know the true potency of the herbs you're taking because they don't undergo any regulatory testing for potency.

elliemae   befriend   ignore   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 9:18am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 42

Pain is the 4th vital sign. People have pain, and it's important to treat it.

simchaland says

I agree that many doctors are too quick to prescribe pain pills. And instead, now we have doctors who are afraid to prescribe narcotic pain relievers to patients who really need it due to the “War on Drugs” and our geniuses from Marin/Santa Cruz feeding irrational fear over addiction and possible side effects. Sometimes pain is worse than the possibility of becoming dependent on medication to have a good quality of life. Sometimes accupuncture, biofeedback, physical therapy, chiropractic work, chakra alignments, feng shui, traditional chinese herbal medicine, tens units, tiger balm, Reiki, heating pads, ice packs, meridian balancing, massage, cupping, breathwork, shamanistic practices, yoga, tai chi, rebirthing, sound and vibrational healing, crystal healings, accupressure, exercise, and aura cleansing don’t provide enough relief. That’s why we have pain medicine.

Medications should be used in conjunction with other treatments. But sometimes drugs are all that will work. That's why we have drugs.

I know someone who's a Reiki "master;" she is so good at it she can do it for someone hundreds of miles away. She's also a homeopathic healer of some sort, loves herbs and tells people how to treat themselves naturally.

She's sick alot.

simchaland   befriend   ignore   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 9:26am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 43

elliemae says

Pain is the 4th vital sign. People have pain, and it’s important to treat it.
simchaland says


I agree that many doctors are too quick to prescribe pain pills... Sometimes pain is worse than the possibility of becoming dependent on medication to have a good quality of life. Sometimes accupuncture, biofeedback, physical therapy, chiropractic work, chakra alignments, feng shui... That’s why we have pain medicine.

Medications should be used in conjunction with other treatments. But sometimes drugs are all that will work. That’s why we have drugs.
I know someone who’s a Reiki “master;” she is so good at it she can do it for someone hundreds of miles away. She’s also a homeopathic healer of some sort, loves herbs and tells people how to treat themselves naturally.
She’s sick alot.

Yeah, I find that many people who chose to be "holistic" without using any "Western Medicine" at all have many physical and sometimes mental complaints. I was educated in the holistic healing arts as a psychotherapist on a graduate school level. "Holistic" means looking at the ENTIRE person to help that person to acheive balance to allow for healing to happen. In my view "Holistic Medicine" includes all of those so-called "Alternative Treatments" and "Western Medicine." If you are going to go holistic, go all the way and exclude nothing that could be of assistance.

Vicente   befriend   ignore   Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 9:40am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)