WatchI'm reading a fascinating book -- The High Cost of Free Parking, by Donald Shoup -- which describes the enormous social costs paid by Americans for the "tradition" of individual automobile drivers not having to pay to park their cars. Rather, the costs of maintaining parking spaces are bundled into the prices off the goods we buy, which is not only heartlessly unfair to those who can't drive automobiles, but also creates a tendency for society to be built at automobile-scale, meaning that even people who have no particular desire to drive cars find themselves using their autos just to get to the post office or drugstore because there's no cost to parking there, and things are farther away than they should be.
This got me to wondering: what percentage of US residential real estate is automobile-dependent?
How about jobs? It wouldn't surprise me if more than half the jobs in the US virtually required an automobile in order to commute there.
Are people who can't drive automobiles one of the most under-recognized discriminated-against minorities in the US today? How many communities and jobs are effectively closed off to them?
(I myself once had a job where, for no rational reason that anyone could think of, all employees were required to have valid driver's licenses. At one point it was discovered that I didn't have one, and the fact that I couldn't see well enough to drive a car wasn't a valid excuse. This from a company that insists that it doesn't discriminate based on religion, race, handicap, etc., etc.!)
There are huge ex-urban communities that seem to be precariously dependent on the continuing supply of reasonably-priced gasoline.
Those of you who live in these communities, how do you cope when you have no car? Are you worried about your investment collapsing if (when) oil ever goes sky-high again? Did anyone choose a non-car-dependent neighborhood with a view towards how things might be in 20-30 years?
A "Whites Only" community or place of employment would be looked on with horror by any conscientious person, yet "all employees must have an automobile" -- the equivalent of "No Visually Impaired" -- is perfectly legal and unremarkable.
It's something that surprised me when I go back to the US. Americans are basically compassionate and will almost always express sympathy with minorities who face discrimination, and support laws to help them live and work without hassles. The one exception is automobiles -- nobody seems to care that so many homes and jobs are dependent on them. If you can't drive a car, have you had trouble finding a community where you could buy/rent a home and commute to work without problems?
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Nomograph says
Probably!
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San Carlos, CA
ChrisLA says
To me it's not about paying for parking. That's not an issue nor is it a solution. It's the issue of massive amounts of tax dollars being diverted toward one specific type of development - CAR oriented, strip mall and suburban hell - rather than other more beneficial development models.
I would like to see more mixed use, variable densities, more public transit (not buses but light rail, trains, subways), and less green field big box and strip malls, with suburban residential tracts that are nothing but rows of houses with nothing else. Our local governments have rubber stamped and even encouraged this scourge for 60 years or more. Same goes for massive commercial tracts and office parks. It's not a good model, it creates more problems than it solves, and frankly, it is aesthetically awful.
The problem is most people don't even have the OPTION of not driving everywhere. So many of you like your cars, fine! I love my muscle car and enjoy driving with the top down. But there are days I would like to leave it in the garage and go to work, go shopping, go out and about. In most of the U.S., that is not even a possibility without extreme measures (rent a limo).
The good news is there has been proven success with something called new urbanism. I think the proof is in the fact that these new urbanist developments immediately become some of the most expensive RE in the areas they are built. This is because it is DESIRABLE.
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Tenouncetrout says
I didn't know you were a socialist. Maybe we get the gubbermint to give us free gasoline too!!
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Yes, that is an excellent book. And it's widely read among policy makers here in San Francisco.
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Also worth checking out: Howard Kunstler has written and done a lot of presentations on this topic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ZeXnmDZMQ
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Damn.
I drove past a filling station near my home with a sign showing 4.00.9 per gallon of 87 octane, on my way to Arco station with $3.89.9 per gallon. My running fuel expense is up to $349 for the past thirty days. That's for three drivers, includes a Prius and a natural gas Honda ($2.37 per gallon on this morning's fillup), no commuting outside of our city, and one commuter who commutes on public transit instead of driving... and it added up to $349 just for fuel for the past 30 days.
Damn.
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sybrib says
It's going to get worse. A lot worse.
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Tempe, AZ
kiatoa's website
MarkinSF: You say "worse, a lot worse", I say "better, a lot better". People are adaptive. We saw this in the last price spike. Bus ridership went up dramatically, efficient car sales went up, guzzler sales went down. As the price of oil soars adaption and innovation will occur. There will be transient pain but long term things will be fine. People will move closer in to the city centers, bicycling and public transportation will grow etc. So, at least for my values, things will get better with high gas prices, not worse :)
What is more likely though is that prices will come back down again. My hunch (or conspiracy theory) is that the swings in oil prices are intentional. Raise prices for a period to take massive profits but lower them before too many people adapt and change behaviors or buy gas sippers.
A large portion of the population doesn't think very critically, deeply or long term and will bitterly complain about gas prices while filling up their SUV or F150 for the 20 mile daily commute never even seeing the irony. I think for people like this you can safely keep the prices inflated for several months sucking cash out of their pockets like crazy then bring prices down so they don't trade in the beast for a sipper or move closer to where the work is. Repeat over and over ...
BTW, I believe that the solution to high oil prices is to tax the oil and pay the collected tax back to the taxpayers as a dividend. Yes, it sounds crazy but I think it makes economic sense. I wrote that up a while ago here: http://kiatoa.blogspot.com/2008/10/why-taxing-resources-makes-them-cheaper.html
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Reston, VA
kiatoa, I don't think taxing oil sounds crazy - I've been rooting for that to happen for years. Driving is way too heavily subsidized in the US.
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MarkInSF says
I think we can handle it, because two of the three of us can use public transit to commute, which I have been doing for awhile not to save money but because I don't like driving in the heavy traffic.
The third one cannot use public transit, but that commute is only about 15 miles roundtrip (bicycling is not really practical as the commute includes driving over some very substantial hills- in the MidWest they'd probably call it a mountain.) Also, we have among our vehicles a fully depreciated high mileage (40 mpg) gasoline vehicle and another decent mileage (~ 30 mpg) one that runs on compressed natural gas. Yesterday's natural gas price at Pinnacle was $2.37 per gasoline gallon equivalent. Since I began fueling the CNG in 2007 the CNG price has been steadily about 2/3rds the price of liquid gasoline. The other vehicles are about 20 to 27 mpg depending on how we use them.
And yet, with that usage pattern, about $350 per month for car fuel. No car commutes further than about 15 or so miles R.T. No SUV or Big Bubba pickup truck. $350 per month.
I can only imagine how it's affecting others. Some economists have said gasoline prices by mid-2008 were the match that lit the fuse of the credit bubble bomb that came in the early autumn. Because, most Americans, renters or mortgage payers or whomever, are strapped and don't have the margin to deal with a sudden disruption in cost of living like that. It's not like they can just go to their boss and demand a raise to pay for the higher gasoline cost.
When I fueled the small truck at Arco last night ($3.89 in San Jose), people ahead of me in line at the pay station were buying weird amounts. Someone bought $4 worth. Another person bought $10 worth for an SUV. Another guy brought a sandwich bag full of coins; it took the attendant awhile to count it, causing a queue of persons to buildup at the pay window and a queue of cars lining up at the pumps.
So even if my household can handle the higher gas prices, the economy probably cannot, since unlike iwog most people are not rich, and since unlike Nomograph most people don't have the taxpayers of California supporting them.
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" Are we to believe that the costs associated with maintaining and cleaning rest rooms are heartlessly unfair to people that don’t need to pee?"
In Prague we did need to pay for that too! Even at McDonalds there was an extra cost of using the restroom. (I think some of them were taking in close to $1000/day).
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I think a lot of people out here miss out on the fact that even if you reduce costs for someone it will not necessarily reduce prices.
The only thing that really would force prices down is competition, and I really do not see that simply making people pay more for parking would do anything than be another added tax. This to me seems like a non issue, or something too trivial to matter considering the other bigger items government needs to solve.
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sybrib says
Today a week later the price was up to $4.05.9 at the same Chevron. A regressive tax on people who must drive to work for their jobs, at a time when wages are stagnant. Sure is what it feels like.
Sounds like a lower standard of living.
Sounds like for those who have a job to drive to, less money for other expenses.
Like childcare.
Or tuition.
Or housing.
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Scottsdale, AZ
robertoaribas's website
this is why I keep buying homes that are A. near public transport, B. near the city employment core. I am seeing increasing rental demand in all of my markets...
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Hey sybrib,
Gas prices are going higher so home prices will follow the suit, just like someone here says "listing price is going up so actual price will also go up".
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There is a partial solution to the problem: carpooling. Nothing wrong with it. Done it before, may wind up doing it again.
I know lotsa folks who do it, and even more who could, and maybe would, if they thought they had to.
It's more than just saving gas. It's reducing the stress of daily driving, reducing wear and tear (and ownership cost) on one's own vehicle, grounding us in the reality that we live in society and not in a bubble.
Ever hear the story of the Bay Bridge Casual Carpooler who met their spouse that way?
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The United States wants access to Osama bin Laden's three widows and any intelligence material its commandos left behind at the al-Qaida leader's compound, a top American official said in comments broadcast Sunday that could add a fresh sticking point in already frayed ties with Pakistan.
Information from the women, who remained in the house after the commandos killed bin Laden, might answer questions about whether Pakistan harbored the al-Qaida chief as many American officials are speculating. It could also reveal details about the day-to-day life of bin Laden, his actions since the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001 and the inner workings of al-Qaida.
source: news.yahoo.com
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sybrib says
That's an exception to the rule, not the rule. Out here in LA transportation is horrible. Most people do need cars to work. And if you go out into more rural areas it's even more of a must.
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Zlxr says
Expect "time creep", with the utilities changing the time period for cheaper electricity to later and later into the evening.
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Baltimore, MD
YesYNot says
I am in favor of taxing imported oil and eliminating domestic oil subsidies.
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I'm in favor of declaring California as America's France.
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My longest commute was a half-hour walk from Paddington to Strawberry Hills in Sydney. That is reasonable. Sitting in traffic listening to gun fire and all-hate, all-rage AM radio for hours on end is twisted. If you can't get the boss or owner to move the business to within walking distance of your house, get another gig closer or start your own business.
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MarkInSF says
Um, only the people living outside large cities like San Francisco are sitting in traffic for a long time. People who don't live or work in huge cities have no traffic problems, and don't pay to live in one of the most overpriced cities in America. But hey, San Fran is the greatest city ever, right? You just keep drinking that Kool-Aid!
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Mountain View, CA
StoutFiles says
You need to consider the fact of finding jobs. Yes, one doesn't need to spend in traffic where jobs hardly exist. Chicago metro, Sf bay area, LA/OC, San diego, NY metro, Boston, etc--all these job centers have traffic problems.
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sybrib says
That's exactly what my wife and I talk about as well. Our gas costs have gone from $100 to $400 a month in about a yr. Our two cars avg about 28mpg overall, so not horrible, commute is about 5 miles and 15 miles per person, so less than the avg bay area commute, are others not feeling it? I don't get it.
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Kent, WA
John Bailo's website
Go to the most "transit-rich" and high density areas of cities.
What do you see?
Yep, cars. Everywhere people still have cars, park cars and drive in cars, even in Manhattan and in the most "urbist" neighborhoods around Seattle like Capitol Hill.
You can moan until you're blue in the face about "auto dependent suburbs" but a reality of the 21st century is that Personal Transit dominates over Mass Transit and is one of great freedoms of mankind.
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John, us cityfolk like our cars when cars do better, and like our public transit when it does better. We like to have it both ways. And, even though we like our cars, we don't depend on them. They are a luxury, a discretionary expense, a toy. But we don't depend on them nor on the friggen enemies of the US who sell petrol to us.
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Bellingham, WA
thunderlips11 says
yup. It's nice having streetscapes exist for people and not cars.
Feels like Disneyland for a while.
My first full day in Japan was spent in this locale:
http://goo.gl/maps/G8YN
Busy suburban city, ~100M from the train station. Nary a car on the road. It was awesome & I'd love to go back there again.
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sybrib says
We buy their oil because they stupidly sell it to us. Once they're out, they're out...and we have huge natural reserves as well as plenty of untapped oil. Plus, what the government won't tell you is that they want gas prices to stay just high enough to not break the economy because they want people out there buying new, full-efficient cars. Buying foreign oil is a win-win.
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no free parking? Why do we pay so much for gas tax, car registration, sales tax on your car, etc. Thats what should be paying to maintain roads and parking lots. There are plenty of FEE parking sites, especially in cities. But I shouldn't have to pay to park at a grocery store or post office....
its scary when people really start thinking about this garbage
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ih8alameda says
How is that possible? Let's assume a year ago that gas prices in the Bay Area were $2.50 and now they are $4.50 (actually lower than that now). If you drive, let's say, 25K miles a year between the two cars, and average 28 mpg, then that's 893 gallons. At $2.50, that comes to $2232. At $4.50, it's $4018. The difference is $149/month, which is half what you quoted.
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StoutFiles says
Stupidly sell it to us? Is it stupid to sell a commodity if you pay $100/barrel for it when it costs $20-30 to produce? Maybe we're the stupid ones for not taking advantage if we have such huge natural reserves, which doesn't seem to fit with the facts.
StoutFiles says
I don't think any economist agrees with that. Right now, it produces massive trade imbalances.
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corntrollio says
Guess how much our oil will be worth when there's hardly any left? Plus, you always want a lot of oil in case something were to happen that would halt trading, like a world war. We pay a premium now for both security and for a future monopoly.
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StoutFiles says
Please. If it made economic sense for Exxon to sell more domestic oil, they would be doing it. The fact is that we can't produce that much more under current conditions, and it has very little to do with security. Nice trolling, sir.
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StoutFiles says
No one could be that clueless about oil production, could they?
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"The fact is that we can’t produce that much more under current conditions, and it has very little to do with security."
That is complete nonsense.
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Sunnyvale, CA
B.A.C.A.H. says
I don't see the big deal. When I started driving I got about 15 highway MPG, spent $1.10 a gallon in nominal dollars or $2.04 in 2012 dollars, and was spending $0.136 per mile in current dollars. My current car gets 29 highway MPG, gas is $4, and I'm spending $0.138 per mile.
That's business as usual.
We chose a small home centrally located for work, bike a lot, and in the last 30 days spent $52 on gas for my wife and I.
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After 10 bucks a gallon or so, people will start shooting. At $15, cannibal anarchy.
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Sunnyvale, CA
B.A.C.A.H. says
One week I rode 418 miles from Grand Junction, CO to Golden, CO with 30,000 feet of climbing over real mountains between them. It felt great.
5 x 15 miles = 75 total in a week is not a big deal even with some real mountains in the middle.
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Monterey, CA
drew_eckhardt says
+1.
My roundtrip bike commute is about 17 miles (short way), and 23 the long way. I do this minimum 3 days a week. Hills/mountains and all.
Even if you don't ride every day, start with 1-2 days a week, and gradually build up. It's hard, but once you get in the habit, you'll never want to be back in your car again.