WatchI wanted to put this comment in the Obamacare thread, but now I'll try this. This post is in response to a comment using this blog commentary on the website of The Economist: http://www.economist.com/blogs/lexington/2010/10/estate_tax_and_founding_fathers
Interesting aspect of history, this entail and primogeniture. From http://www.conlaw.org/Intergenerational-II-2-4.htm:
"Entail and primogeniture imposed potentially perpetual restraints on the alienation of land, and could result in useful agricultural land being tied up indefinitely."
The laws of primogeniture and entail were laws that fostered perpetual inheritance according to the will of the state, which would be for the benefit of those actually in power. That is quite different than an inheritance determined by the deceased with no transfer of conditions upon further inheritance of the same property. Letting the individual decide for a single instance of estate disposal does not appear to be what Adam Smith or Thomas Jefferson were against. Would Jefferson agree with FDR? I am not sure I would trust an editorial in the Economist that equates opposition to entail as support for an estate tax. The Economist seems to be controlled by the Rothschild banking family of England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Group). They only copied from a blog by Stephen Budiansky. According to wikipedia, Budiansky went to Harvard and Yale, like the political elites often do, and was editor of U.S. News & World Report. Yah.
Jefferson did support the rich being taxed more than the poor (http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1330.htm). A flat tax does that. I know you want a progressive tax. Jefferson seems to have at least pondered the possibility.
From (http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1330.htm): "Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1785. ME 19:18, Papers 8:682
As for family inheritance itself, Jefferson was not against it. Thomas Jefferson wrote (http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/mtj:@field%28DOCID+@lit%28tj010010%29%29):
"As the law of Descents, & the criminal law fell of course within my portion, I wished the commee to settle the leading principles of these, as a guide for me in framing them. And with respect to the first, I proposed to abolish the law of primogeniture, and to make real estate descendible in parcenary to the next of kin, as personal property is by the statute of distribution. Mr. Pendleton wished to preserve the right of primogeniture, but seeing at once that that could not prevail, he proposed we should adopt the Hebrew principle, and give a double portion to the elder son. I observed that if the eldest son could eat twice as much, or do double work, it might be a natural evidence of his right to a double portion; but being on a par in his powers & wants, with his brothers and sisters, he should be on a par also in the partition of the patrimony, and such was the decision of the other members."
Although inconclusive as to his feelings on the estate tax, Jefferson seems to have no problem with a law of family inheritance in parcenary, meaning received undivided and in common by family coheirs. Moving on....
Here is a list of the biggest U.S. land owners: http://www.landreport.com/americas-100-largest-landowners/ It says Ted Turner is number one with a little over 2 million acres.
Biggest in the world? Do I think Queen Elizabeth II can use 6.6 billion acres? Not really. That's one sixth of the world's land. Do you think the estate tax is getting her? More about the world's biggest land owners (http://www.whoownstheworld.com/about-the-book/largest-landowner/):
"She is the world’s largest landowner by a significant margin. The next largest landowner is the Russian state, with an overall ownership of 4,219 million acres, and a direct ownership comparable with the Queen’s land holding of 2,447 million acres. The 3rd largest landowner is the Chinese state, which claims all of Chinese land, about 2,365 million acres. The 4th largest landowner on earth is the Federal Government of the United States, which owns about one third of the land of the USA, 760 million acres. The fifth largest landowner on earth is the King of Saudi Arabia with 553 million acres."
ACTUALLY, THE BIGGEST OWNER OF U.S. LAND IS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT! From http://www.nationalatlas.gov/printable/fedlands.html we have: "The Federal Government owns nearly 650 million acres of land - almost 30 percent of the land area of the United States." I know parks and government facilities are needed, but 30% of the whole friggin' country? Is government big enough for you yet? The estate tax will stop the aristocracy? Would you please stop hating the so-called rich and aspire to be one yourself? If you earn it, you help us all. Politically speaking, $10 million is not rich. I said 'politically speaking'.
Perhaps we need a gift tax to stop landlordism too? When does the paranoid taxation stop? There is no landlordism without government coercion. The estate tax does not stop government coercion; it is government coercion that mainly benefits elitists, some of whom, like the Kennedys, are part of the dynasties supposedly to be dismantled. Why don't we destroy Harley-Davidson? Why don't we destroy Campbell's soup? I liked it better when the Bancroft family owned the Wall Street Journal. Is it better that WSJ is owned by Rupert Murdoch? I don't think people with several million dollars are aristocrats. They are not able to compete with George Soros or Bill Gates unless they stand united in the distribution of power. If they are numerous, they provide some safety to the rest of us. The freedom we once had in America can trace its heritage to the Magna Carta, when barons limited the king's power. That is the greatness of British heritage: limited government.
Thomas Jefferson also wrote this (Thomas Jefferson to Pierre S. Dupont de Nemours, April 15, 1811; see loc.gov Jefferson digital collection):
"Another great field of political experiment is opening in our neighborhood, in Spanish America. I fear the degrading ignorance into which their priests and kings have sunk them, has disqualified them from the maintenance or even knowledge of their rights, and that much blood may be shed for little improvement in their condition. Should their new rulers honestly lay their shoulders to remove the great obstacles of ignorance, and press the remedies of education and information, they will still be in jeopardy until another generation comes into place, and what may happen in the interval cannot be predicted, nor shall you or I live to see it. In these cases I console myself with the reflection that those who will come after us will be as wise as we are, and as able to take care of themselves as we have been. I hope you continue to preserve your health, and that you may long continue to do so in happiness, is the prayer of yours affectionately."
Are you wise enough to deserve freedom?
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Honest Abe says
So what......we steal from dead people and they are going to wake up from the dead and hunt us and eat our brains?
I think the estate tax is the most ethical tax there is. What a more fitting tribute than to reward the nation that allowed you to accumulate so much wealth? Do you really think that someone born in a 3rd world nation has the same opportunities and protects as someone born here? You don't think that at the end of your life you might owe something back?
Heirs were not responsible for earning the money, therefore allowing them to receive 50% is more than generous. I can't imagine any argument that tries to assert the estate tax is unfair to someone who is already dead. I think it's silly.
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I now have Ray, Abe and anti-intelligence on ignore. And if a thread has them in it, and they are suckering someone in to arguing with them, I'm just going to tune it out. I'm sure as the midterms get closer, Ray is going to up his posts to 5 a day or something. Good, I hope he and his anger have fun.
Ray and Abe are great, no scratch that, truly awesome Americans.
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Really, tatupu70, then tell me why we say we have a federal government? It is a basic question about our political system.
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Honest Abe says
Here's where you are mistaken. When you are dead, you can't really own things anymore. Your heirs own them. And taxing them on their inheritance is entirely legal.
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Honest Abe says
So you're saying that you do pay enough in taxes to cover the things that a constitutionally limited government would provide? (let me guess, you're going to try to include FICA in there?)
You also think that we didn't use tariffs and stamp taxes to pay for things prior to 1913? Sure thing, buddy.
Are you sure you know what those are? In your rant above, you managed to name one.
I'll actually agree with this. Estate taxes are taking away wealth from dead people who have no use for it so that it doesn't get thrown into a hole somewhere that nobody can benefit from.
Just like being buried with your wealth, leaving it all behind for your children is mostly a waste.
I would never leave my children more money than they need to live a comfortable life until adulthood, and maybe pay for college so that they can start off life debt-free. Anything else would deprive them of the experience of building their own lives.
Assuming that I live to see my children all finish college (it shouldn't be too hard to live into my late 40s...), I'll probably wind up leaving all of my assets to charity when I die.
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antifeminist says
The moon is made of cheese. The Apollo program was filmed in my backyard. The Texas Nation Guard shot Kennedy. A crack group of marines blew up the levy in New Orleans. Bush ordered the planes to fly into the twin towers and doubled down by pre-wiring the buildings with explosives. I have helmet head. The secret rulers of the world decided it was time to take down the US by selling toxic loans and high-fructose corn syrup. Obama blew up the Deep Water Horizon to get his poll numbers up. Ted Kennedy didn't drink alcohol but was afflicted with chronic lyme disease. If we all just sat in a circle singing Kum Ba Ya, things would be better. Nero and his great-great-great ... great-great ... great-great grandson Obama are the anti-christ. The democrats want to us to be the USSR V2. Joe Biden does NOT have hair plugs.
Did I miss anything?
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>Hilter was from the left (National Socialists = Nazi)
Your understanding of the history of early 20th century Germany leaves a lot to be desired. The actual Left in Germany tried their hardest to fight against the Nazis, banning the NSDAP outright for a while. The communist party had been banned in turn by the time the Enabling Act of 1933 came up to a vote, and it was left to the SDP (German Socialist Party) to vote against it. The centrist party (Zentrum) gave the Nazis the votes they needed to erect the fascist state.
Otto Wels, leader of the SDP speaking in the Assembly:
"At this historic hour, we German Social Democrats pledge ourselves to the principles of humanity and justice, of freedom and Socialism. No Enabling Law can give you the power to destroy ideas which are eternal and indestructible ... From this new persecution too German Social Democracy can draw new strength. We send greetings to the persecuted and oppressed. We greet our friends in the Reich. Their steadfastness and loyalty deserve admiration. The courage with which they maintain their convictions and their unbroken confidence guarantee a brighter future."
For you to think Hitler was a leftist is just indicative of how much of a fucktard you really are. The NSDAP was basically a coopting of the Leftist movement, and Hitler had to do the Night of the Long Knives in 1934 to purge the remnants of the social left from the NSDAP.
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antifeminist says
So why are you here? I only threw out the bait - you took it hook...line...and sinker with your "oil-isn't-fossil-fuel" comments. It was blatantly obvious to everyone but you that I was poking fun at your comments yet you felt it your duty to correct me and show everyone how much smarter you are than the rest of the world. Did you have to search wikipedia for your answer or do you have that one bookmarked? The Hitler comments were to be expected from someone who is obviously a long time member of Mensa. I'm surprised that someone with such a high intellect hasn't brought up his insights as to why Obama shouldn't be president because he wasn't born in Hawaii.
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Honest Abe says
Elitists never have trouble sleeping because their consciences have been seared with a hot iron. Furthermore, why should we surprised when they want to rob the dead? Maybe they feel the dead owe them something being they continue to allow them to vote?
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Honest Abe says
Lunesta
Honest Abe says
I agree with you, but the average Joe doesn't pay inheritance taxes. Old people spend all their money on health care and bingo. What sucks is when a small business is involved. While it might be worth a lot on paper, the taxes can put it out of business. That is just wrong.
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Honest Abe says
I'm a business owner and I can honestly say that a $1 million exemption would save nearly every small business in town. You'd have entire city blocks that would not be touched.
Bob is absolutely correct. Not only would most businesses be 100% protected for the heirs, but in the case of a company that is worth more than $1 million, there would be plenty of buyers who would simply buy the company out of probate and continue to run it with all the jobs intact.
Furthermore a small business worth over $1 million and NOT incorporated is almost unheard of. Certainly no attorney or CPA is going to advise an operation with $10 million in gross sales (typical $1 million operation) be run as a sole proprietorship. The entire argument is disingenuous and absurd.
Nearly every argument supporting the estate tax repeal is a lie.
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This is the most incoherent rant you've posted so far.
What the fuck does a british queen have to do with an estate tax in the US?
The jefferson stuff was nonsensical and only tangentially related to inheritance at all (seriously, he's talking about whether estates should be divided evenly amongst children, not whether or not a part goes to the government).
And the US government being the largest landowner? Seriously? Did you know that the US government owns ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of US airspace? OH MY GOD.
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elliemae's website
Actually, you did put it in the Obamacare thread, and it has received as much play there as it did here.
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It didn't show in the other thread to me for a day. The point, Kevin, is that the largest estate holders are people who control government. Could you please use logic for once. Why do you bring up airspace and not mineral rights? or the depletion of fossil fuels for all I care. BTW, oil is not necessarily a fossil fuel. When I overwhelm that thimble mind of yours, you get all huffy. Maybe you can't hang without doing some actual research? The problem is that the U.S. Government owns the airspace between your ears and those of most Americans.
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antifeminist says
huh? Change subjects much?
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antifeminist says
You mentioned the government itself (which, clearly, controls the government), and Ted Turner. The claim that Ted Turner controls the government is about as ridiculous as arguing about british monarchs in relation to US taxation.
So I don't really know what you're talking about.
antifeminist says
Because I was making an absurd argument to illustrate the point.
Please keep insulting my intelligence though. It hurts me so much to have my intellectual capacity impugned by someone who can't formulate a coherent argument in a few thousand word post.
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You "know it all libs" didn't answer the question, you attacked the messenger (as usual). Is the policy just? No. Stealing from the dead is illegal. When did the IRS become one of our heirs? Taking from another by force or threat of force is a crime.
Darn, why does that pesky work, FORCE, keep coming up in any discussion involving government. I guess it boils down to this: libs prefer force, others prefer freedom (and limited constitutional government).
Nov. 2nd. TRASH DAY. Its time to get rid of the garbage.
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Typical, Democrat rebuttal ramblings. Rather than answer your question, you're just being called a Conservative crack pot, and the Obamaites are going into full bore protect mode. "Must... eh... protect... eh... Barry... and Oh by the way you suck Republican trickle."
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tatupu70 says
You will also probably pay a state tax if you sell your car (we do in my state). Your post illustrates quite well one of the basic problems of liberalism. You enumerate all these taxes and see absolutely nothing wrong with them. Have you ever wondered about all the "silent" taxes you pay? Probably not, or better yet, if you have, you think they are great. Pretty sad when so called Americans think it's being patriotic to be taxed into oblivion. Oh well, what was all that fuss the Founding Fathers went and stirred up when they could have just laid down and let old King George just make tax slaves out of them. It’s pretty clear which side a lot of you people would have been on.
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iwog says
What question was that Larry?