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Hope


By Kevin   Follow   Sun, 23 Jan 2011, 5:51am PST   3,029 views   59 comments
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http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/ron-paul-ralph-nader-agree-on-progressive-libertarian-alliance/

Imagine a political system where differences were laid out in real terms and not turned into hyperbole and outright lies.

Imagine a political system where irrelevant issues were ignored, rather than turned into the most significant components of the debate.

Imagine a political system where our representatives voted for the best interests of the people who live in their districts rather than the best interests of the people who finance their campaign.

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¥   Mon, 24 Jan 2011, 1:01pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 20

Bap33 says

true freedom based on personal accountability and moral social behavior just aint for everyone.

"freedom" "based on" "moral social behavior".

When you think two opposites like that belong in the same sentence, something should tell you that you are operating from inconsistent logical bases somewhere.

"Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism popularized the term "thought-terminating cliché". A thought-terminating cliché is a commonly used phrase, sometimes passing as folk wisdom, used to quell cognitive dissonance. Though the phrase in and of itself may be valid in certain contexts, its application as a means of dismissing dissent or justifying fallacious logic is what makes it thought-terminating.

"Lifton said, “The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliché. The most far-reaching and complex of human problems are compressed into brief, highly reductive, definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorized and easily expressed. These become the start and finish of any ideological analysis.” [2][3]
In George Orwell’s novel Nineteen Eighty-Four, the fictional constructed language Newspeak is designed to reduce language entirely to a set of thought-terminating clichés."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_cliche

Bap33   Mon, 24 Jan 2011, 10:49pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 21

something like, "Clinton lied nobody died" ... or "Hope and Change" ... or "Yes we can (in Spanish)? .... are those examples of what you are saying?

Anyways, what I meant is that a free society does not work without personal accountibilty and healthy social guidlines (morals, for lack of better term). I do not find those two points confusing, but I do understand that most left-view people would find them uncomfortable.

bob2356   Tue, 25 Jan 2011, 2:29am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 22

Troy says

bob2356 says

Care to quantify and explain exactly which of Ron Pauls positions qualify as “rolling clownshow”

actually “personal freedom, limited government, and sound money”
says it pretty well.
“Personal freedom” reduces to the cartoonishly dogmatic economic freedom of Honest Abe, ie the glibertarian utopia of the rich owning everything and the poor working in company towns. For a real-world portent of that, just look at China.
“Limited government” reduces to “The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance.”
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul148.html
“sound money” reduces to Paul’s tinfoil and black helicopters and all the “End the Fed” bullcrap.

Again I'm not a huge fan of Ron Paul, but you have obviously not actually read what he has written. I find him to be fair and realistic with well thought out positions even the ones I don't agree with. He avoids sound bites based on some single wildly distorted factoid and most political bullshit. I could live with a congress full of left wing, right wing, and middle of the road Ron Pauls. You should try to be a more objective observer, you are sounding like a left wing rush limbaugh.

kentm   Tue, 25 Jan 2011, 4:55am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 23

Bap33 says

Anyways, what I meant is that a free society does not work without personal accountibilty and healthy social guidlines (morals, for lack of better term). I do not find those two points confusing, but I do understand that most left-view people would find them uncomfortable.

well, its just that by "healthy social guidelines" you usually seem to mean more prisons and more cops busting heads of hippies & faggots, and at this point in the great effort of US democracy 'personal accountability' seems to have very little bearing for the right unless its aimed solely at unwed mothers, poor minorities and minor drug offenders... certainly it has no bearing on anyone who holds any kind of power with their wide stances, fake wars, admissions of torture, corporate illegalities and outright graft.

What makes me uncomfortable is how much you honestly seem to believe what you're saying when its so obvious that there's a whole other dynamic going on.

kentm   Tue, 25 Jan 2011, 5:06am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 24

And I will also say that at least what Nader and Paul have going for them is that they're people who've stood by their convictions honestly and openly and have been very successful in bringing generally positive change based on those ideals. Their visions of the world, I think, is intended to make the place better for more people. I'd love to see what kind of change they could effect together.

justme   Tue, 25 Jan 2011, 6:23am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 25

We need a system where politicians really compete for the votes of ALL the voters, instead of just spending corporate campaign money on convincing the dumbest 5% of the voters that do not even understand whether their principles fit the democrat mold or the republican mold.

We need more choice and real competition among the politicians, and no influence buy non-democratic institutions such as the Federal Reserve and Corporate Elites.

Bap33   Tue, 25 Jan 2011, 8:10am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 26

kentm says

What makes me uncomfortable is how much you honestly seem to believe what you’re saying when its so obvious that there’s a whole other dynamic going on.

Let me help you with that.
I honestly believe in God, the God of the Hebrew Bible.
I honestly believe that Jesus was Christ and my sins are forgiven (and yours, and everyone who believes)
I honestly believe that a free society must have a moral anchor
I honestly believe that personal accountability is part of that anchor
I honestly believe that drug use is part of America's problem
I honestly believe that porn is part of America's problem
I honestly believe that forced tax-supported welfare is part of America's problem
I honestly believe that mean, lazy, liars are drawn to American politics (both sides)
I honestly believe that social decay started in 1962ish in America
I honestly believe that negro people have no excuse to not succeed in America
I honestly believe that mexican invaders will be killing Americans in the streets of California within 2 years.
I honestly beleive the message of Dr. Rev. MLKjr.
I honestly believe that Ben Franklin was touched by God.
I honestly believe that having a baby is the most scarry and amazing thing a human can be part of.
I honestly believe that Henry Ford was brilliant.
I honestly believe that Nuke power not being used in AMerica is stupid.
I honestly believe that the POTUS is more of a figure head, and less of a dynamic member.
I honestly believe teachers that are just students that kept going to school make for horrible teachers
I honestly believe that a person's life experiences shape their views and prejudices.
I honestly believe I can kill another person to protect my family and belongings.
I honestly believe there is a difference between killing and murder.
I honestly believe that truth is not wecome or wanted by left minded people.
I honestly believe it will take a civil war to remove the cancer America is suffering from in the form of liberal/progressive/socialist/leftist policeys ov the last 40 years.
I honestly have no idea what you mean by another dynamic.
I honestly would rather not be attacked for sharing my views, and would rather just read yours.

Done!   Tue, 25 Jan 2011, 8:33am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 27

those are some good views Bap, I may not agree with all of them but I respect them.

Bap33 says

I honestly believe it will take a civil war to remove the cancer America is suffering from in the form of liberal/progressive/socialist/leftist policeys ov the last 40 years.

Who would be fighting whom? There would be so many factions a Civil war after this point. Would just be one of the political divisions in this country trying to carve the lion share of the pie for their views. While being the first to calling everyone else not worthy of the same.

Oh that's now, what were we talking about again?

Bap33   Tue, 25 Jan 2011, 10:32am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 28

Thanks ToT.
I see the fractures to go down the lines of pretty much what I suggested - faith, behavior, accountablity, morality, American fundamentalism(sp). One one side will be those who follow the basic Christian and Hebrew faith and the CoUSA, and on the other side would be those that would rather see dead Hebrews and Christians and do not like the CoUSA. I think Africa and Arabia are already doing the killing part. Christians are getting chopped to bits.

But, I may be wrong. Maybe things will get better when all workers are taxed 100% to make sure all non-workers get the food, clothes, drugs, and other things they have been promised by the mighty gov. Tuff call.

marcus   Tue, 25 Jan 2011, 11:23am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 29

I'm not attacking Bap, you know I think you're a good guy, in spite of how vastly different your POV is from mine. I just wanted to share this juxtaposition. For me, it's almost like a work of art.

Bap33 says

I honestly believe that truth is not welcome or wanted by left minded people.

Bap33 says

But, I may be wrong. Maybe things will get better when all workers are taxed 100% to make sure all non-workers get the food, clothes, drugs, and other things they have been promised by the mighty gov. Tuff call.

marcus   Tue, 25 Jan 2011, 12:16pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 30

You can tell, I'm reading through these backwards.

Bap33 says

what I meant is that a free society does not work without personal accountibilty and healthy social guidlines (morals, for lack of better term). I do not find those two points confusing, but I do understand that most left-view people would find them uncomfortable.

Bap, I'm going to play "Devil's advocate" here, just for some food for thought.

Not sure how familiar you are with the concept of exponential growth, but that's how populations grow. Here is a graph showing the growth of human population (in billions)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Population_curve.svg

You may have heard about natural resources being used up, the seas being over fished and so on. A non religious pragmatic person might think about ways that things can be sustained long term. Real long term. It might be more convenient to assume Armageddon and end times etc, but some people take a slightly more rational optimistic view.

IS it possible that homosexuality, porn and sex that isn't for procreation is in a way a natural occurrence, considering our need to have population growth slow down ? Sure we could wait for wars or disease to take care of it, but maybe humans can actually adapt to reproducing less. And maybe as that adaptation occurs it will take the form of more varied lifestyle choices instead of everyone getting married and having children.

This doesn't mean that I'm comfortable with extremes. In fact even not so extreme: a friend (ex student) recently "came out" and I found it surprisingly disturbing (that he wasn't who I thought he was). That is it changed our friendship a little. I thought I was more open minded than that, maybe I'll get over it. But my point was meant to be that I am not so much saying that I want to see more people embracing alternate lifestyles, it's just that I choose not to be so judgmental. I choose not to be so arrogant as to think I know the morality that is right for others.

The type of judgmental attitude I am talking about goes with religion, but it is very much a function of the ego.

Would Jesus have been that judgmental ? My view of morality is what makes me a liberal. That’s what you won’t comprehend. I say if Jesus were alive today, he would be a “liberal.”

Kevin   Tue, 25 Jan 2011, 2:10pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 31

Wow, the crazy's out in full force now.

I give up.

marcus   Tue, 25 Jan 2011, 2:42pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 32

Aww, I'm sorry Kevin to have strayed so far from your thread topic. Just responding to Baps idea that because of homos, hippies, porn and food stamps America is going to hell in a handbag. I should have been more concise though. Probably shouldn't join in at all when I'm this tired and stressed out.

Bap33   Wed, 26 Jan 2011, 2:34am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 33

@marcus, thank you for a civil response. There is very little in your post that I would argue about. The very end has a couple of things, so I'll just answer them.

marcus says

Would Jesus have been that judgmental ?

yep. He judged. He pointed out right from wrong. And he based everything on the word of God. What I think you were getting at is how Jesus would warn people that want people to judge other people -- we are all sinners. And that is a fact. But, the laws and social structure of a people should reflect the desired actions that God wants, and not the nature of the people living under the civil laws and structure. If you base the laws, rules, and acceptable social behavior on nothing more than the expected nature of man, a free society does not work. Anyways, the answer is Jesus did/does/will judge.

marcus says

My view of morality is what makes me a liberal. That’s what you won’t comprehend.

I think (maybe) I do understand that your (and any other person's) view of morality is what tends to make them lib or con. In my opinion, the very nature of accepting absolute right and wrong, and personal accountability, stem from morality. So, I would say I kinda do understand that your personal view of morality shapes if you are lib or con.

marcus says

I say if Jesus were a live today, he would be a “liberal.”

When I use the word "lib" it is meant to include all things leftist and progressive and communist and such ... I am not the best at choosing the correct word each time. So, with that fact shared let me answer. If Jesus were walking in America today (he is) he would not agree with Abortion on demand. Who else in America does not agree with Abortion on demand? And who does agree with Abortion on demand? Would the people in favor of Abortion on demand be described as liberals or conservatives? Would Tea Party members be described as liberal or conservative? Using these common areas or reference I would suggest that Jesus would be a conservative in today's America. I would imagine the same examples would work pretty good for welfare, drug abuse, and all wallstreet greed. Jesus is a conservative in America today.

@Kevin,
I did not mean to swing the thread. I was answering kent's question honestly. Sorry for messing it up.

bob2356   Wed, 26 Jan 2011, 2:37am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 34

Bap33 says

I see the fractures to go down the lines of pretty much what I suggested - faith, behavior, accountablity, morality, American fundamentalism(sp). One one side will be those who follow the basic Christian and Hebrew faith and the CoUSA, and on the other side would be those that would rather see dead Hebrews and Christians and do not like the CoUSA. I think Africa and Arabia are already doing the killing part. Christians are getting chopped to bits.

Christians have never killed anybody? Your history education is just a little superficial to say the least. You were saying about the left being closed minded. Especially since 90% of the history of christianity is about power, exploitation, and money.

People can't be moral without being Christian or Hebrew? Wow, that's really amazing to know. To quote bridges of madison county "It must be really interesting to live in your head with Santa Clause and the Easter bunny".

America was moral and good up until 1962? You've been watching way too many episodes of father knows best and the andy griffin show. Try reading a little on what America was really like. That would be an America where good christian men wore white sheets and lynched good christian black men. America where good christian men imported black men as animals. America where good christian citizens stripped other American citizens who happened to be of Japanese descent of everything they owned and sent them to interment camps. Witch trials, andersonville prison, the trail of tears, land runs, FBI enemy lists, McCarthy hearings. The list of legal and moral transgressions by good christians in America is very very long.

Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq   Wed, 26 Jan 2011, 6:20am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 35

Bap33 says

I honestly beleive the message of Dr. Rev. MLKjr.
I honestly believe it will take a civil war to remove the cancer America is suffering from in the form of liberal/progressive/socialist/leftist policeys ov the last 40 years.

How do you define "civil war"? Because my definition includes violence which I'm fairly certain is antithetical to the message of MLKjr.

You define a difference between killing and murder, and you also note that you believe Mexican "invaders" will be "killing" Americans in 2 years. Am I to assume they are just in their killing since you do not call it murder?

I would agree with about half your list though. My turn:

I honestly believe in the basic goodness of humanity,
I honestly believe the striving for personal accountability brings out the goodness in humanity,
I honestly believe a representative democracy that protects the rights of the minority is the best form of government,
I honestly believe there is no peace without justice,
I honestly believe societies will have ever changing moral standards to which they base laws and regulations,
I honestly believe societies will make mistakes when choosing their moral standards,
I honestly believe I have no certainty of a single God, multiple gods, afterlife, reincarnation, final judgement, or end of days. But I am certain Scientology is a crock of shit.
I honestly believe tax-supported CORPORATE welfare is far more damaging to American society than personal welfare,
I honestly believe mean, lazy, liar people advance to positions of government, corporate, non-profit, and other power because these traits provide a personal advantage to those people,
I honestly believe drug prohibition is far more damaging than drug use,
I honestly believe the term "recreational drug use" is really stupid as it implies an activity rather than the reality of sitting around stoned doing nothing,
I honestly believe the 60s sucked unless you were a non-draft age white man,
I honestly believe people have different definitions of personal success and it is not defined soley by money, possessions, fame, or power.
Lastly, I honestly believe positive social change in American cannot come from violence, and violence only begets more violence.

Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq   Wed, 26 Jan 2011, 6:45am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 36

Bap33 says

I think Africa and Arabia are already doing the killing part. Christians are getting chopped to bits.

Your beliefs about Africa are based on inaccuracies and false presumptions. Christianity is the dominent religion of central and southern Africa - some of the areas most wracked by Christian on Christian violence. AIDS dominates areas of Africa that the Catholic Church has the most power and influence. And to ignore Western Civilization's responsibility for Colonialism in Africa is unjust.

Colonialism in Africa is not a bunch of negros sitting around complaining about what whitey did 50 years ago. The entire infrastructure of Africa has been shaped by Colonialism - roads, cities, institutions - all designed to maximize resource extraction from the continent. Nothing exists to build trade between nations or provide natural boundries between peoples. The slave trade shattered societies and cultures, and burned away a people's shared history, language, and political systems. Imperialism carved up Africa into dominated slave territories for base resource mercantilism. Education of Africans was outlawed by the European powers. Western Civilization rests on a foundation built over 3,000 years and only survived because Arabia maintained the collective discoveries of humanity while white folks died of plagues and wars in the Dark Ages of church domination. Wow, thanks Arabia for...numbers. I knew we could "count" on you!

Africa has had merely 50 years to come to terms with Colonialism and enslavement. As expected, it's transition has been messy.

Popular American culture is fascinated with Post Apocalyptic fantasies at the moment because such events strip away everything we have. Could you survive and thrive if a nuclear flu killed off 90% of all Americans? Could you survive and thrive after a new Ice Age? Nuclear Holocaust? Mayan Prophecy? Africa is the post apocalypse. They aren't doing that bad.

If you believe in American exceptionalism in regards to surviving the post apocalypse situation, look at New Orleans after Katrina. Fuck, we knew the city was below goddamn sea level but we carried on anyways. Six years later and the place is still a mess.

Detroit is the other post apocalypse, but an economic one. Again, we knew what happens to industries when we outsource all job creation. Yet, here we are!

So before you critique Africa, I strongly recommend "Africa: Altered States, Ordinary Miracles" by Richard Dowden (Mar 9, 2010). It blew my mind.

elliemae   Wed, 26 Jan 2011, 7:47am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 37

Bap33 says

I honestly believe...

SoCal Renter says

I honestly believe...

Steve Martin believes

I believe in rainbows and puppy dogs and fairy tales.

And I believe in the family - Mom and Dad and Grandma.. and Uncle Tom, who waves his penis.

And I believe 8 of the 10 Commandments.

And I believe in going to church every Sunday, unless there's a game on.

And I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, wholesome and natural things.. that money can buy.

And I believe it's derogatory to refer to a woman's breasts as "boobs", "jugs", "winnebagos" or "golden bozos".. and that you should only refer to them as "hooters".

And I believe you should put a woman on a pedestal.. high enough so you can look up her dress.

And I believe in equality, equality for everyone.. no matter how stupid they are, or how much better I am than they are.

And, people say I'm crazy for believing this, but I believe that robots are stealing my luggage.

And I believe I made a mistake when I bought a 30-story 1-bedroom apartment.

And I believe the Battle of the Network Stars should be fought with guns.

And I believe that Ronald Reagan can make this country what it once was - an arctic region covered with ice.

And, lastly, I believe that of all the evils on this earth, there is nothing worse than the music you're listening to right now. That's what I believe.

-Saturday Night Live Monologue, 1979

elliemae   Wed, 26 Jan 2011, 7:50am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 38

I forgot to add that some comedian, somewhere added, "And I believe you should put a woman on a pedestal.. high enough so you can look up her dress while she dusts the ceiling."

:)

Bap33   Wed, 26 Jan 2011, 9:52am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 39

SoCal Renter says

You define a difference between killing and murder, and you also note that you believe Mexican “invaders” will be “killing” Americans in 2 years. Am I to assume they are just in their killing since you do not call it murder?

the point was the location, not the action - but murder is what was intended, to be honest.

SoCal Renter says

Your beliefs about Africa are based on inaccuracies and false presumptions.

I have no beliefs about Africa, I just know that non-Christians are chopping up Christians in Africa and Arabia. Are you suggesting that there has not been mass murdering of Christians by non-Christians in Africa and Arabia? Christians, targeted for being Christians?

SoCal Renter says

If you believe in American exceptionalism in regards to surviving the post apocalypse situation, look at New Orleans after Katrina. Fuck, we knew the city was below goddamn sea level but we carried on anyways. Six years later and the place is still a mess.
Detroit is the other post apocalypse, but an economic one. Again, we knew what happens to industries when we outsource all job creation. Yet, here we are!

Great examples of how worthless and reliant humans on gov aide become after a few generations. That hurricane hit other areas that rebounded just fine. The demographics are the difference. And in those demographics the true difference is in atitude and the family dynamic. Self reliance is part of personal responsability - in my opinion.

@ellie, lol

Bap33   Wed, 26 Jan 2011, 10:00am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 40

SoCal Renter says

I honestly believe people have different definitions of personal success and it is not defined soley by money, possessions, fame, or power.
Lastly, I honestly believe positive social change in American cannot come from violence, and violence only begets more violence.

I liked a few others, and laughed at a couple, but these two here I agree with 100%

@bob,
you can't argue with me about stuff I didn't write -- it just don't work well that way.

Done!   Wed, 26 Jan 2011, 10:39am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 41

Bap trying to explain to Liberals that "the country has gone to hell in a hand basket", is like trying to give driving tips to a drunk, after he crashed the sedan.

elliemae   Wed, 26 Jan 2011, 11:35am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 42

Tenouncetrout says

Bap trying to explain to Liberals that “the country has gone to hell in a hand basket”, is like trying to give driving tips to a drunk, after he crashed the sedan.

I thought that gonja was supposed to open your mind, instead of slamming it shut to the consideration of different possibilities. Guess I was wrong.

Done!   Wed, 26 Jan 2011, 12:41pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 43

Ellie the country has gone to hell in a hand basket, and remember, always turn into the slide.

elliemae   Wed, 26 Jan 2011, 2:00pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 44

Tenouncetrout says

Ellie the country has gone to hell in a hand basket, and remember, always turn into the slide.

I'm not saying that the country isn't in bad shape, the part that I take exception to is with your continuous comments about how liberals think... but then again, trying to explain to you that I have the ability to think for myself is just as crazy as my assuming that you have the ability to understand the concept.

marcus   Wed, 26 Jan 2011, 2:03pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 45

Tenouncetrout says

the country has gone to hell in a hand basket

And if you have access to knowledge of absolute right and wrong, then you know it's all the fault of the liberals (you know, with a little help from the devil of course).

And remember,... your're either with us or you're with the terrorists.

elliemae   Wed, 26 Jan 2011, 9:49pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 46

marcus says

Tenouncetrout says


the country has gone to hell in a hand basket

And if you have access to knowledge of absolute right and wrong, then you know it’s all the fault of the liberals (you know, with a little help from the devil of course).
And remember,… your’re either with us or you’re with the terrorists.

So, by attempting to view the root causes of the "handbasket effect" in a general way, I'm allowing the terrorists to win?

I'm so embarrassed. Please forgive.

marcus   Wed, 26 Jan 2011, 11:23pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 47

Bap33 says

I think (maybe) I do understand that your (and any other person’s) view of morality is what tends to make them lib or con.

There is something else that has been discussed before in this forum, and that's the authoritarian personality. This type of person needs to see black and white (no gray areas) and also wants to submit to an authority. Maybe the almighty counts as such an authority, as does the right wing corporatocracy that is linked to the Christian right.

Bap33   Thu, 27 Jan 2011, 1:38am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike