Prices won't drop forever!


By SubOink   Follow   Wed, 9 Feb 2011, 7:25am   7,170 views   161 comments
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Every broken clock is right every 12 hours...

If you keep being a doom and gloomer...you will be right at some point, if you are bullish you will also we right.

I have been a bear on real estate ever since 2003, when we first looked into buying and got terribly frustrated here in LA, not to sound like a broken record but of course all realtors were laughing at me, CA would NEVER crash...maybe level out...yeah right, I don't call a 35% drop leveling out - I was stubbron back then and I am very happy to have waited it out...the fact is though...I have lived in a crappy rental for 6 years, landlord is a pain in the ass, I work from home and would love to setup a nice office alla new floors, cabinets, possible break down a wall and extend - all the things I cannot do in a rental. I am in escrow now on a much much nicer house (w/pool), even better neighborhood and my mortgage is going to be only slightly higher than my rent is. (20%down 30yr loan) -

I don't care what anybody says...I don't see how that is not a no brainer. And if the market goes down further - so what? If I don't buy, I still have to pay the rent, in essence I am still paying a mortgage, somebody else's mortgage because I have to live somewhere. I'd rather pay my own. Been on the sidelines way too long. We rented a really nice house for a while in 2003...then the landlord had to sell - BAM, we had to move. Totally sucks living with that uncertainty! And moving sucks anyways...

Funny Thing is...I have kept all 45 listings that we looked at in 2003 and just looked them up on zillow and guess what...that's exactly where we are now here in LA. 2003 prices. Amazing!! Of course, back then I didn't have the downpayment like now so it still helped to have rented all these years.

Don't be a bear forever! I have a few older friends that have been bearish on real estate for 30 years...I almost became one of them :)

Buy a house for the right reason - because you need a place to live. If you are waiting for the market to be at the very bottom then you are speculating just like you would with a stock. That mindset is what has caused the bubble in the first place. Don't expect to make big money with your home. Buy it so you have a place for your kids to grow up. And once its free and clear in 30 years, the kids can have it and rent it out and get a head start like some of you in this forum who were lucky enough to inherit a rental prop.

…Deals are out there!

The only person I feel bad for is the next tenant in this crappy rental house with a landlord that hates to fix anything...but there is always a sucka out there. I was that sucka for a long time...

Now, go and buy a house! The time has come.

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  1. Patrick


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    122   5:44pm Thu 10 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    tatupu70 says

    If you rent, you basically have a lifetime mortgage… Not only will you never pay it off, but the costs will almost certainly increase over time.

    It's all a matter of which one is worse.

    If you own, you will never pay off property tax, maintenance, and insurance. Ever. They will always increase over time as well.

    If the rent is less than property tax, maintenance, and insurance, the renter wins. Every year. Forever, as long as that situation holds. And that's not even counting the return on capital that the renter can more profitably invest elsewhere.

  2. Katy Perry


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    123   5:58pm Thu 10 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    tatupu70 says

    Katy Perry says


    tatupu70 says

    But I don’t get the enslavement argument. You have to live somewhere. Whether you rent or own, you are a slave to some sort of housing cost. If you rent, you basically have a lifetime mortgage… Not only will you never pay it off, but the costs will almost certainly increase over time.


    30 years vs 1 year get it?

    After 1 year you get to live for free?

    Free for me means,... freedom to change. we all have to live somewhere. some just lock themselves in harder than others.
    That's really the main point here folks. I can move and take work anywhere as a renter. at least I feel that way.
    That is my own personal salvation. so don't F' with it! I like freedom not debt slavery.
    as a borrower you're in the mans pocket. he owns your labor. these are my feelings make up your own just don't tell me mine are wrong for me. and don't expect me to ever drink the funny kool-aid.

  3. TadPole


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    124   6:00pm Thu 10 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    You have some great points! I bought my home at one of the peaks in 1990. There were a few times when I was under water. My mortgage is now cheaper than rent.

    We are itching to find a deal. But even the deals don't look that good when you compare income with housing prices.

    Frankly, I don't see how houses cannot fall even lower. Unemployment is getting worse. ObamaCare is scaring the hell out of would be business owners.

    Does the US still manufacture anything except paper assets?

    Our borders have been infiltrated by day laborers rather than educated people who bring something to table in exchange for legal residence.

    I am optimistic about the future after the bottom falls out. I long for a crash of the US dollar so it will be attached to gold and silver.

  4. SubOink


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    125   6:37pm Thu 10 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Patrick says

    tatupu70 says

    If you rent, you basically have a lifetime mortgage… Not only will you never pay it off, but the costs will almost certainly increase over time.

    It’s all a matter of which one is worse.
    If you own, you will never pay off property tax, maintenance, and insurance. Ever. They will always increase over time as well.
    If the rent is less than property tax, maintenance, and insurance, the renter wins. Every year. Forever, as long as that situation holds. And that’s not even counting the return on capital that the renter can more profitably invest elsewhere.

    In general that's true...and would have to be decided on a case by case basis...but in my case

    The actual numbers are like this:

    - My Prop Tax is 7000/year (and it's a tax write of, so its actually less)
    - Insurance $80.- (state farm)
    - Earthquake $100 (statefarm)

    The rent for this house would be $3000/month and that is 2011 - not sure where it'll be in 2030...Prop Tax could go up of course but I doubt very much that prop tax would be anywhere near rents otherwise nobody could rent their house for profit anymore. So Prop Tax and Rent Prices will always have a relationship.

    Maintenance is also upgrading floors, replaster pool and keeping things in very nice conditions, something a landlord will not do (none of my landlords ever did) - a landlord will pay for a plumbing stop up but not to put in efficient A/C , Heat, add a jacuzzi...my electricity bill in the rental was enormous because...no insulation, old A/C - more money out the window. In our house we are planning on going solar...many tax incentives for that stuff. It'll take 10 years to amortize that stuff but after that I am going to be selling power back to the grid. All things you can't do in a rental.

    Look in great neighborhoods like Tarzana, south of Blvd, Woodland Hills etc Rentals are the biggest pieces of crap...and go for $2500-2800 for 1500sqft. house.

    Most people that rent, don't invest their money - and if they did...how did they do in the last 10 years...?

    The only way renting makes sense (imho) is if you find an amazing deal somewhere and lock that rent in for 2 years. We have looked at many rentals over the years and only found one that was absolutely amazing - we loved it there...unfortunately, the landlord decided to sell after only 1.5 years. We couldn't afford it, he wanted $900k...so we had to move out. I hate that part about renting. Some people call it freedom of choice where to go next - but once you move into a house, you don't want to move that often really. You end up staying. But you also have the uncertainty of your landlord raising the rent, forcing you to move out because he sells - once you are on a month to month lease - 30 day notice and you're out! How do you like to live without knowing for sure if you are going to be in the same place in a few months - especially when you have kids.

  5. tatupu70


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    126   7:31pm Thu 10 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Patrick says

    tatupu70 says


    If you rent, you basically have a lifetime mortgage… Not only will you never pay it off, but the costs will almost certainly increase over time.

    It’s all a matter of which one is worse.
    If you own, you will never pay off property tax, maintenance, and insurance. Ever. They will always increase over time as well.
    If the rent is less than property tax, maintenance, and insurance, the renter wins. Every year. Forever, as long as that situation holds. And that’s not even counting the return on capital that the renter can more profitably invest elsewhere.

    I 100% agree.

  6. tatupu70


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    127   7:34pm Thu 10 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Katy Perry says

    tatupu70 says


    Katy Perry says

    tatupu70 says

    But I don’t get the enslavement argument. You have to live somewhere. Whether you rent or own, you are a slave to some sort of housing cost. If you rent, you basically have a lifetime mortgage… Not only will you never pay it off, but the costs will almost certainly increase over time.


    30 years vs 1 year get it?

    After 1 year you get to live for free?

    Free for me means,… freedom to change. we all have to live somewhere. some just lock themselves in harder than others.
    That’s really the main point here folks. I can move and take work anywhere as a renter. at least I feel that way.
    That is my own personal salvation. so don’t F’ with it! I like freedom not debt slavery.
    as a borrower you’re in the mans pocket. he owns your labor. these are my feelings make up your own just don’t tell me mine are wrong for me. and don’t expect me to ever drink the funny kool-aid.

    It's not funny kool aid. You think you are more mobile renting--that's a perfectly reasonable reason to rent. Others would rather have more security--stable mortgage payment, can't be forced to move, etc. Just depends on what you want.

    But the whole indentured slave business is just garbage.

  7. tatupu70


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    128   7:36pm Thu 10 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    TadPole says

    Unemployment is getting worse.

    How do you figure? You may or may not believe the government statistics, but even ADP is saying businesses are hiring. There's almost no chance unemployment is getting worse.

  8. seaside


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    129   7:56pm Thu 10 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    tatupu70 says

    There’s almost no chance unemployment is getting worse.

    This can be one of the memorable comment of the year, of course, depending on what's gonna happen in the future. :-)

  9. FortWayne


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    130   8:07pm Thu 10 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Suboinc, your comments to me sound very phony and lacking integrity.. I think you over-leveraged and all of a sudden hoping your gamble will go up. I wish you all the best with your purchase, but be realistic; most people here on the forum do not care what you do with your money.

    So coming here all of a sudden and telling everyone that it's time to buy is rather pointless, because I heard the same crap back in 2009. With interest rate being all time low, prices are going to be all time high. Simple as that.

    I rather find it pathetic that someone who cried that times were bad, jumped onto the market and all of a sudden decided to become bearish. In America we appreciate honesty, not opportunism.

    Of course if I misjudged, than I apologize.

  10. inflection point


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    131   8:07pm Thu 10 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Tatupu,

    Businesses may be hiring, but it perhaps mostly temporary part-time help rather than good paying jobs with benefits. Unfortunately the government statistics around employment much like inflation are quite distorted.

  11. APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch


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    132   8:10pm Thu 10 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    America has not yet begun to achieve terminal velocity in its free fall to total chaos and, finally, cannibal anarchy.

    Wall Street keeps shrieking for higher earnings and companies keep offshoring to slave states.

    Whole generations of workers subsist by wolfing down fistfuls of food they can snatch while wandering around grocery stores or returning to hunter/gather subsistence, hunting feral animals and squatting in the ruins of smoldering, ruined cities like Detroit.

    Tens of millions of unemployed will finally be herded as a political force by a united neonazi/teabagger party which will devolve into a religious cult led by apocalyptic prophet sarah palin who will write the first cannibal cook book when the crops fail due to a combination of meteorological convulsions and the loss of petroleum based fertilizers.

    If you love your family, teach them to kill with rocks and sticks because in two generations that is all that will be left!

  12. inflection point


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    133   8:28pm Thu 10 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Apocalypse

    I think we should just eat the bankers and politicians. That would be a great start.

  13. SubOink


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    134   8:39pm Thu 10 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    ChrisLA says

    Suboinc, your comments to me sound very phony and lacking integrity.. I think you over-leveraged and all of a sudden hoping your gamble will go up. I wish you all the best with your purchase, but be realistic; most people here on the forum do not care what you do with your money.
    So coming here all of a sudden and telling everyone that it’s time to buy is rather pointless, because I heard the same crap back in 2009. With interest rate being all time low, prices are going to be all time high. Simple as that.
    I rather find it pathetic that someone who cried that times were bad, jumped onto the market and all of a sudden decided to become bearish. In America we appreciate honesty, not opportunism.
    Of course if I misjudged, than I apologize.

    I give up - You obviously, didn't understand one thing I said...

  14. joshuatrio


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    135   8:46pm Thu 10 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    tatupu70 says

    But the whole indentured slave business is just garbage.

    One thing to consider - what if you or your wife lost your job and can't find another one locally?

    What if you had to sell/move?

    How underwater would you be?

    Can you rent it for your mortgage payment?

    How much stress would it impose on your marraige - trying to deal with "the house"? In that case, your marriage is a slave to the house.

    You might say, this isn't a valid argument, but I know so many upside down debt slaves that are trying to sell/move/relocate.... They constantly say "I don't know what we're going to do about the house"...

    I'd say it's very possible to be a debt slave, mortgage slave, or house slave.. It's happening all over.

    I've gotten job offers in various parts of the country (how I got from the East coast, to TX, to CA) - and it's nice being flexible and being able to go after opportunity when it's presented. We love CA, but with all the garbage going on in this state, it's nice not to be owned (be a slave) to the mortgage company, knowing that if we wanted to, we could move on a dime.

    I'm sure the slave/non slave mindset is viewed differently by each renter/mortgage holder - but you can't completely dismiss this view as "garbage."

    APOCALYPSEFUCK says

    America has not yet begun to achieve terminal velocity in its free fall to total chaos and, finally, cannibal anarchy.
    Wall Street keeps shrieking for higher earnings and companies keep offshoring to slave states.
    Whole generations of workers subsist by wolfing down fistfuls of food they can snatch while wandering around grocery stores or returning to hunter/gather subsistence, hunting feral animals and squatting in the ruins of smoldering, ruined cities like Detroit.
    Tens of millions of unemployed will finally be herded as a political force by a united neonazi/teabagger party which will devolve into a religious cult led by apocalyptic prophet sarah palin who will write the first cannibal cook book when the crops fail due to a combination of meteorological convulsions and the loss of petroleum based fertilizers.
    If you love your family, teach them to kill with rocks and sticks because in two generations that is all that will be left!

    You're hilarious (and probably right). You need to film/produce you're own zombie movie - I'm thinking it will be similar to "28 Days Later."

  15. inflection point


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    136   8:53pm Thu 10 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Joshuatrio,
    I understand your point. Some people (including myself) are very wary of excessive debt. I appreciate the flexibilty that renting provides me. For example, my job is transfering me to another location about 20 miles further than my current commute. If I want I can move easily. Its much more complicated and expensive if you "own" a home.

  16. bubblesitter


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    137   9:56pm Thu 10 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    APOCALYPSEFUCK says

    America has not yet begun to achieve terminal velocity in its free fall to total chaos and, finally, cannibal anarchy.
    Wall Street keeps shrieking for higher earnings and companies keep offshoring to slave states.
    Whole generations of workers subsist by wolfing down fistfuls of food they can snatch while wandering around grocery stores or returning to hunter/gather subsistence, hunting feral animals and squatting in the ruins of smoldering, ruined cities like Detroit.
    Tens of millions of unemployed will finally be herded as a political force by a united neonazi/teabagger party which will devolve into a religious cult led by apocalyptic prophet sarah palin who will write the first cannibal cook book when the crops fail due to a combination of meteorological convulsions and the loss of petroleum based fertilizers.
    If you love your family, teach them to kill with rocks and sticks because in two generations that is all that will be left!

    What took you so long? LOL.

  17. SubOink


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    138   11:57pm Thu 10 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    toothfairy says

    So Thomas in your opinion where are we in this chart?

    Of course most bears will say we are still in the denial stage. D

    I like that...wanna argue about where on the graph we are - let's go bears!!

  18. SubOink


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    139   12:01am Fri 11 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    I would say we are somewhere between Panic and Capitulation...

  19. ¥


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    140   12:15am Fri 11 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    "temporary setback -- I'm a long term investor"

  20. SubOink


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    141   12:28am Fri 11 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Troy says

    “temporary setback — I’m a long term investor”

    You think the millions of people that have been foreclosed on and evicted from their homes and the thousand of homes that are just going into foreclosure now and all the short sale home owners are saying "I am a long term investor"...I doubt that - we're past that stage for sure! They are capitulating and they want OUT!

  21. MarkInSF


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    142   12:43am Fri 11 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    SubOink says

    I would say we are somewhere between Panic and Capitulation…

    In the markets that were affected by the late 80's mini-bubble, it was a full 6 years from the peak when prices started rising again. That includes LA by the way.

    Given that this bubble was, oh just slightly larger, it's hardly a stretch to think it will take longer than that to resolve.

  22. SubOink


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    143   12:59am Fri 11 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    MarkInSF says

    SubOink says

    I would say we are somewhere between Panic and Capitulation…

    In the markets that were affected by the late 80’s mini-bubble, it was a full 6 years from the peak when prices started rising again. That includes LA by the way.
    Given that this bubble was, oh just slightly larger, it’s hardly a stretch to think it will take longer than that to resolve.

    Not sure how long it will take in between the dots on that graph above - it could be 5 years to get from Capitulation to Despondency...and another 5 years to get from there to Depression...the graph does not say anything about how long it will take. We are not talking time, we're talking sentiment.

  23. ¥


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    144   1:14am Fri 11 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    MarkInSF says

    Given that this bubble was, oh just slightly larger

    What few people apparently realize is that the bubble itself was keeping the economy afloat 2003-2007.

    You can't just take away ~$500B/yr of free money injection from an economy and expect it to recover in any sort of cyclical manner, especially since the economy was already sliding into recession in the 2001-2002 timeframe.

    What has been going on since 2008 has been very aggressive fiscal intervention. It has stopped the slide but not fixed the weakness in the system.

    The damage is simply too many middle-class Americans and not enough middle-class jobs for them.

    This is what happens when we integrate our economy with those where a $5/hr gross is a pretty decent salary in the scheme of things.

    http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/PAYEMS

    The ongoing intervention is going to serve to further divide the country into haves and have nots, as those with inflation-protection stay afloat and those without come under increasing levels of economic stress.

    The CBO in its deficit predictions has dialed in $1.5T/yr deficits.

    $1.5T!

    This is $13,600/household/yr, a simply stunning amount of deficit spending.

    This is when we were supposed to have our fiscal house in order to be able to handle the surging baby boom retirees, the front rank of which are now turning 60-65 this year.

    In the next 10 years the age 70+ population is going to expand from 28M to 38M (+33%), and the age 55-69 population is going to expand from 48M to 60M (+25%)!

    The yuan is going to strengthen from 1/6 to ~1/4, giving 400 million or so first-world Chinese an additional 33% of buying power.

    I don't know where this is all going, but damn if we'll be lucky to end up as well as Japan has.

  24. ¥


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    145   1:16am Fri 11 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    SubOink says

    They are capitulating and they want OUT!

    The Japanese were capitulating in 1995, too. They still had 10 more years of normalization ahead.

  25. ¥


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    146   1:21am Fri 11 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    SubOink says

    We are not talking time, we’re talking sentiment.

    The idea that we're going to just oscillate from 'bad' to 'good' is really ignoring a lot of fundamental stresses that have been building up and not resolved, not resolved at all.

    Chart: consumer debt + corporate debt + federal government debt (blue) vs. GDP (red)

  26. FortWayne


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    147   7:23am Fri 11 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Troy I wouldn't call those years as years of prosperity. It was very obvious that time that people were living in huge debt, many were not working but simply living off home equity destroying economic output.

    It was a giant ponzi scheme. Those who got into the market early lived off the debt of those who jumped into it after them. Sponsored by our lovely corrupt government officials.

    I do agree with you on most points, we are in for a few years of recession. Takes a while for people to change skills from real estate to real world needs, takes a while for economy to turn around and find reality. Some are still holding on to the hope of ponzi real estate come back, of course I also know a few people who are hoping for DotCom bubble to return.... wishful thinking.

  27. joshuatrio


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    148   8:05am Fri 11 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Troy - thanks for pointing out some of the angles that a lot of us are forgetting about.

  28. klarek


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    149   8:38am Fri 11 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    toothfairy says

    it doesn’t need to be complicated. Not sure about you but it’s pretty common sense to me. The order of recovery will be stock market->job market->housing market.
    bears point to jobs and housing as evidence against a recovery. That’s the wrong way to look at it since these are lagging indicators.

    I think it goes way deeper than that. Fundamentals do not support current home prices. Prices will start rising when the fundamentals (household GDP) increase legitimately (not through a bubble) and prices aren't based on govt-created gimmicks like subsidized uber-low rates and bribes for people to buy.

    Arguments about unemployment are easily dismissed because they're reflected in our GDP statistics. Yes, reduced unemployment will help the housing sector, but it's better measured in terms of income that's a result of it since that's what correlates with home prices.

  29. FortWayne


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    150   8:45am Fri 11 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Sub you just lost your argumentAPOCALYPSEFUCK says

    America has not yet begun to achieve terminal velocity in its free fall to total chaos and, finally, cannibal anarchy.
    Wall Street keeps shrieking for higher earnings and companies keep offshoring to slave states.
    Whole generations of workers subsist by wolfing down fistfuls of food they can snatch while wandering around grocery stores or returning to hunter/gather subsistence, hunting feral animals and squatting in the ruins of smoldering, ruined cities like Detroit.
    Tens of millions of unemployed will finally be herded as a political force by a united neonazi/teabagger party which will devolve into a religious cult led by apocalyptic prophet sarah palin who will write the first cannibal cook book when the crops fail due to a combination of meteorological convulsions and the loss of petroleum based fertilizers.
    If you love your family, teach them to kill with rocks and sticks because in two generations that is all that will be left!

    What about bows and arrows?

  30. FortWayne


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    151   8:47am Fri 11 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Troy says

    SubOink says

    We are not talking time, we’re talking sentiment.

    The idea that we’re going to just oscillate from ‘bad’ to ‘good’ is really ignoring a lot of fundamental stresses that have been building up and not resolved, not resolved at all.
    Chart: consumer debt + corporate debt + federal government debt (blue) vs. GDP (red)

    Much agreed. These cheer leaders are probably motivated by something, and are ignoring reality.... perhaps we are approaching the stage of denial on the chart above: "http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/financemanila/NewPicture13.jpg"

  31. SubOink


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    152   10:05am Fri 11 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    SubOink says

    toothfairy says

    So Thomas in your opinion where are we in this chart?
    Of course most bears will say we are still in the denial stage. D

    I like that…wanna argue about where on the graph we are - let’s go bears!!

    ChrisLA, the question is who is in denial here...sounds like you are. Like I said, millions of people have LOST their homes...there is little to deny here, the denial happened before they got foreclosed on - right now all those folks are in a depression, ruined credit, lost their home. Don't deny it :)

  32. FortWayne


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    153   10:55am Fri 11 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    You sound a bit naive SubOink.

    Simply because the fundamentals are not there and yet you expect magical events to occur for price increases.

    - Jobs are down.
    - Pay cuts are pretty common still.
    - More outsourcing to come.
    - Government debt is huge.
    - Consumer debt is huge.
    - Businesses are closing down. (slower, but many still are).
    - Fannie/Freddie being shut down (about time).
    - Interest rate is very low.

    I think we are going to have a slow recovery over next 5 to 10 years. But by recovery I mean recovery of the nation, not recovery of ballooned prices which are the main cause for the difficult position this country is in right now.

    Looks like government is trying to do that as well, if they wind down subsidies (FN/FR) as they announced today. This will effectively turn money out of real estate and point it toward other sectors which produce something/anything other then debt. We can't have prosperity in a nation that produces nothing...

    I'm personally looking forward to that time, a moving economy is what we need as a nation, not some ponzi scheme ruining us into destitution. And with money flowing out of real estate into real sound business we are going to recover, it will take some time, but it wont bring back ballooned prices. Hoping for those ballooned prices because you made poor financial decisions is fools hopes.

    You can believe what you like of course, it's a free country.

  33. SubOink


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    154   2:39pm Fri 11 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    ChrisLA says

    You sound a bit naive SubOink.
    Simply because the fundamentals are not there and yet you expect magical events to occur for price increases.
    - Jobs are down.

    - Pay cuts are pretty common still.

    - More outsourcing to come.

    - Government debt is huge.

    - Consumer debt is huge.

    - Businesses are closing down. (slower, but many still are).

    - Fannie/Freddie being shut down (about time).

    - Interest rate is very low.

    Nobody says that we are going back to bubble level prices anytime soon. But there are signs of recovery, jobless rate has reversed direction...its going down, not up. Stockmarket has recovered massivly. But you probably consider that naive too.

    I agree with all your facts...but your interpretation is not correct. You are not looking at the whole picture, you are only looking at the negative aspects.

    My neighborhood has an average income of 90k/yeah per household. Most people have owned their homes for 20 + years...the inventory in this neighborhood (and many others like it too) is very low. There aren't a lot of homes for sale (unlike in the inland empire)...I do see prices holding here or maybe going a little lower...max 10%, that would be a lot. If interest rates rise, prices will come down BUT that won't help you too much because you're still looking at a $3000 /month payment...you don't win much by your wait (but waste more money on rent, and finish paying your house off later).

    I agree with you about a long drawn out recovery. We are at 2003 prices right now, let's say in 10 years from now we are still at 2003 prices which means 20 years of stagnant sideways development, Japan style...wouldn't your rent, wait for prices to drop mentality be completey wrong? You would waste 10 years of paying rent with the result of having to pay the same amount for a house (in monthly payment)...might as well do it now and get the time on your side so that you are rent free when you retire.

    I am looking forward to Fannie/Freddi to be shut down - Damn right, its about time. But don't be naive about the consequence...they won't shut them down overnight...VERY slowly. It won't make the market crash. Look at real estate in Europe, France and Germany - over there they don't have Fannie Freddie style loans with 3.5% down - you HAVE to have at least 20% down...but look at prices over there. Just as inflated as here (in City's like Paris, Berlin, Munich, Barcelona) - so just because Fannie are being fizzled out does not mean we're going to just crash into the ground overnight. That's Panic BS.

  34. iwog


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    155   3:11pm Fri 11 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    I talked to a restaurant owner today. He said that compared to 2009, business is booming and he's able to hire again.

    Signs of recovery are everywhere. As pessimism starts to wane, you're gonna see some nice job growth as well.

  35. Done!


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    156   3:56pm Fri 11 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Iwog we've been poised for a booming Growth since the end of 09.
    What has inhibite3d that growth is the never ending Government funded Corporate soup kitchen lines.
    Corporations have been in the buffet queue, for so long now, they have forgotten how to make money make more money.

    Either businesses aren't investing in equipment or employees unless the Government incentivize the initiative.
    The consumer isn't buying unless the government gives them a rebate or tax break, businesses have learned it much easier to just collect money than make it. I believe our corporations have been sitting flush with loads of cash since Bush's first bail out efforts of late 08. We are not actually experiencing a domestic consumer growth, but companies are funneling Uncle Sam's mad money to the books to look like growth, and make the quarter numbers.

    Much like our Government had a huge surpluss after Clinton when Bush came to office.
    I suspect that when Washington finally turns the spigot off. Companies will bust open their pink piggie banks, and there will a corporate spending spree that will create a financial boom the likes we haven't seen. How fruitful those efforts will be to actually post growth and contribute to a return will remain to be seen. But money will be flowing in large quantities.

    If we can just quit tit suckling our fortune 500 companies for a month. Our little babies are all grown up.

  36. FortWayne


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    157   4:01pm Fri 11 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    SubOink says

    Nobody says that we are going back to bubble level prices anytime soon. But there are signs of recovery, jobless rate has reversed direction…its going down, not up. Stockmarket has recovered massivly. But you probably consider that naive too.
    I agree with all your facts…but your interpretation is not correct. You are not looking at the whole picture, you are only looking at the negative aspects.
    My neighborhood has an average income of 90k/yeah per household. Most people have owned their homes for 20 + years…the inventory in this neighborhood (and many others like it too) is very low. ...

    You are conflating stock market events with reality that most people live. Dow Jones Industrial Index doesn't represent the quality of life an average citizen of America has. It has no relation there, and my portfolio is doing better this year... almost recovered from the crash.

    You also live in a neighborhood that is better off financially where 90k is average. In my area average income is closer to 60k (although now many are living off unemployment checks). 60 x 3 = 180... and houses used to be around 150k to 250 out here. that was the range and it matched incomes. now prices are still dropping... so far down from 600 to roughly mid 300's. still have some time to go... we have tons of foreclosures too. check out victory/corbin cross street... there is a wall of foreclosures, some have squatters living in them even.

    As patrick said, all real estate is local. Maybe in your neighborhood things are great and peachy. It isn't like that out here. And with more outsourcing, I can only see more unemployment and crime in this neighborhood.

  37. SubOink


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    158   4:13pm Fri 11 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    You are right - stockmarket has nothing to do with how most of us live but it is an indicator of sentiment. And people feel like spending when their 401k's look good - it does have a huge impact. When your portfolio is 100% recovered, you are more likely to take on a risk (home purchase) then when your 401k is 80% down and you feel like you have just lost your retirement. Wouldn't you agree?

    Yeah, I know victory/corbin well...I would probably not buy a house there right now. If you are in the 200-250k pricerange, move to the temecula valley - It's gorgeous and a 3000sqft house built in 2004 is $230k. We considered it many times. But there is a reason why its so cheap out there - no jobs!

  38. cloud13


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    159   8:33pm Fri 11 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    I sometimes seriously think that i should get oout of BA in few years......these guys are trying to shitholes for an enormous sum in a gand ponzi scheme.

  39. cloud13


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    160   8:40am Wed 16 Mar 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    fianlly changed my mind......"Don't hate - but particiapate"

  40. Politicofact


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    161   4:21pm Fri 21 Sep 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (1)  

    SubOink says

    Prices won't drop forever!

    no, just for about 10yrs.

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