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Why prices will continue to fall in the Bay Area: Part 3

By Hysteresis   Follow   Wed, 16 Feb 2011, 7:01pm   2,701 views   42 comments
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About half the houses (single family homes only) in the Bay Are are listed over $500k.

Bay Area Under $500k: 6620 listings
Bay Area Over $500k: 5610 listings

Peninsula Under $500k: 358 listings (this numbers is off)
Peninsula Over $500k: 898 listings

$500k price.
$100k down payment
30 year fixed at 5.00% -> $2147/month payment.
$6000/year property taxes(in Santa Clara) -> $500/month.
$2647/month or $31,764/year.
using this calculator: required income is: $113,455/year
using our favorite salary calculator. net monthly: $6,014.60.
44% goes to housing costs. $3367/month is left over or $44,404/year.
in 1999 17% of californian housholds made over $100k/year.
in 1999 1/6 households made enough to buy a home priced $500k.
today 1/2 bay area homes are priced over $500k.

i claim the majority of households don't have or will not want to spend $32k/year on housing.

* not included: tax deductions, home insurance, maintenance costs, closing costs, etc.
* number of listings vary with screen resolution

part 1
part 2

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1. jaded Follow Befriend 3 threads 23 comments

   3   8:27pm Wed 16 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Syphilis says i guarantee you the majority of all parents looking to buy a home are not looking to send their kids to top rated private schools. there’s not enough openings and it’s cost prohibitive for the majority of families. i’m not arguing that the best areas, with the wealthiest parents, will maintain their prices. i’m arguing that the average joes, the ones that are happy to send their kids to any semi-decent school, cannot afford an “average” home of a half million dollars. Agreed. It is ridiculous, to live in a reasonable middle class neighborhood here in the Bay, you need a $200k household income.

2. B.A.C.A.H. Follow Befriend (6) 5 threads 2,360 comments

   4   8:45pm Wed 16 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Syphilis says i’m arguing that the average joes, the ones that are happy to send their kids to any semi-decent school, cannot afford an “average” home of a half million dollars. Average Joes haven't been able to afford "The Fortress", ever. Even back in the day, before the tide of wealthy immigrants changed the demographic, even then Fortress Cupertino was out of reach for average Joes. In those days Cupertino was mainly lower or middle managment types like at places like Lockheed (kinda like, the fella Michael Douglas portrayed in Falling Down). Well paid cushy tech job in aerospace, not exactly an average Joe. Actually quite wealthy by the standards of the average Joes who clean the toilets in the offices where they work, change the oil in their cars, work in the restaurants where they dine. Average Joes not being able to afford The Fortress is nothing new around here. It was the case for many decades, nothing new.

3. B.A.C.A.H. Follow Befriend (6) 5 threads 2,360 comments

   5   8:46pm Wed 16 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   jaded says to live in a reasonable middle class I suppose it depends on what you consider reasonable and middle class.

4. MarkInSF Follow Befriend 14 threads 1,118 comments

   6   8:49pm Wed 16 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   i claim the majority of households don’t have or will not want to spend $32k/year on housing. Still sticking with the SFH as the only acceptable "housing" I see. The median listing in the SFBA, once you include condos and townhouses, is more like $385K, not $500K. Of course that's not including a ton a lower end multi-family apartments, which aren't even available as condos, but if they were would be even cheaper than an average BA condo. And yet those are all perfectly viable housing options too. Yeah, the Bay Area is still expensive, and probably overpriced, but at least be realistic. If you're going to say something like the "majority of households", you have to consider ALL households, not just those in are aspiring to SFH.

5. B.A.C.A.H. Follow Befriend (6) 5 threads 2,360 comments

   7   8:53pm Wed 16 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Syphilis says i guarantee you the majority of all parents looking to buy a home are not looking to send their kids to top rated private schools. That's right! Instead they pay dearly the "tuition" as part of the housepayment. A better value, particularly if you have more than one schoolager. I can tell you, to a person, every single colleague of mine who lives in The Fortress ("owners" and renters both) has more than one schoolager, and all but one of my colleagues who are single OR childless resides outside The Fortress, and of those Fortress colleagues whom I have spoken about the matter all told me it was about the schools.

6. jaded Follow Befriend 3 threads 23 comments

   8   8:58pm Wed 16 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   sybrib says jaded says to live in a reasonable middle class I suppose it depends on what you consider reasonable and middle class. True. For me that basically means living the way I grew up. 1. Safe middle class neighborhood (I lived in an SFH, but townhomes are acceptable) 2. Good school, with a good portion of high achievers/motivated students 3. Schools with enough resources to support gifted kids, and average kids with a reasonable chance at academic success and secondary school and a well-rounded education 4. Discrentionary income for 1X week meals out, 2-week family trips in the summer, occasional weekend day trips to local attractions 5. Savings to pay for 30-40% of college education You need to scrimp and save to get that on a $200k income. Unfortunately, most bay area schools don't make the cut. Especially in anything that's reasonable affordable. Schools these days can't support art, music, or even basic extra-curriculars. This is ridiculous.

7. B.A.C.A.H. Follow Befriend (6) 5 threads 2,360 comments

   9   9:17pm Wed 16 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   jaded says 4. Discrentionary income for 1X week meals out, 2-week family trips in the summer, occasional weekend day trips to local attractions 5. Savings to pay for 30-40% of college education And owning a SFH to boot! This is a superbly high standard of living for most persons in the world. As such, hardly surprising that it is not attainable except for the elites.

8. Hysteresis Follow Befriend (2) 14 threads 648 comments

   10   9:43pm Wed 16 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   sybrib says Syphilis says i’m arguing that the average joes, the ones that are happy to send their kids to any semi-decent school, cannot afford an “average” home of a half million dollars. Average Joes haven’t been able to afford “The Fortress”, ever. you mention top rated schools, palo alto and the fortress. i was talking about the entire bay area. the bay area was much more affordable in the early/mid 1990s and even more affordable in the late 80s. average families with median incomes were able to easily buy Bay Area SFHs back then. my girlfriends mom paid her house off in about 5 years in the 1980s on a single mid-level income. from 2000 to around 2007 (8 years) prices went up faster than people could really afford. from 2008 to today (3+ years) prices are slowly dropping. probably another few more years and we'll be back to generally affordable territory. the entire city of santa clara was unaffordable in 2005/2006 ($700k starting). today there are many smaller homes i could buy, but won't because i feel they're still over priced. in a few years, when the same money will probably buy a mid level home, i'll pull the trigger. my income is in the top 10% in california and without stretching (or putting a big down payment) i would be able to buy basically a dump in a blue collar neighborhood. i would be perfectly happy in a blue collar neighborhood, but there's no way i'm going to pay white collar prices. that's dumb - but apparently a lot of people are doing just that. home prices move like the titanic, slowly but surely and like the titanic prices are sinking.

9. B.A.C.A.H. Follow Befriend (6) 5 threads 2,360 comments

   11   9:45pm Wed 16 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Syphilis says not true.average families with median incomes were able to easily buy Bay Area SFHs back then. Yep, my partner and I were one of 'em. Below median income in those days, actually. I was still in college at the time. Bay Area, yes. But not in The Fortress.

10. B.A.C.A.H. Follow Befriend (6) 5 threads 2,360 comments

    12   9:50pm Wed 16 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Syphilis says my income is in the top 10% in the california and without stretching (or putting a big down payment) i would be able to buy basically a dump in a blue collar neighborhood. i would be perfectly happy in a blue collar neighborhood Syph, I could've written it too. I live in basically a dump, in a blue collar neighborhood. My partner and kids and I are perfectly happy in our blue collar dump. Never did drink the (Hip and)-Cool Aid.

11. Hysteresis Follow Befriend (2) 14 threads 648 comments

    13   12:16am Thu 17 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   add condos and town homes for shits and giggles 60/40 split: Bay Area Under $500k: 10750 Bay Area Under $500k: 7300 29/71 split: Peninsula Under $500k: 512 Peninsula Under $500k: 1228

12. thomas.wong1986 Follow Befriend 16 threads 4,426 comments

    14   12:05am Fri 18 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   SF ace says “i claim the majority of households don’t have or will not want to spend $32k/year on housing.” And there is a good chance their employer wont either. Hello! Nebraska... do you Yahoo ! http://careers.yahoo.com/jsearchresults.php?pagenumber=3&prev=1&next=&crumb=PPjBlB6Olcj&sortfield=PostingDate&sortorder=desc&sort=&concept=&action=&submit_x=&totalrec=33&resume=&key=&reqid=&jcat=&city=NE-Omaha&proximity=&datecreated=Date+Posted&submit_x=Prev+15

13. Hysteresis Follow Befriend (2) 14 threads 648 comments

    15   1:11am Fri 18 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   SF ace says “i claim the majority of households don’t have or will not want to spend $32k/year on housing.” You’re right, the majority don’t. But then again, 5,620 listing is around 0.2% of the overall household. There doesn’t need to be a majority to move the needle. Flawed thesis. Affordability is not just about income. It is a combination of income and net worth. how many years have you been arguing housing prices are sane or should be increasing? case shiller for the bay area shows 3 downs years from 2006. a single up year - which coincides very strongly with the government home buyers tax credit.the home buyer tax credit simply extended the bursting of the bubble by one year. after the credit expired, prices are heading down again. prices are still too high. most of the knife catchers have already bought. sales volume is dropping. i expect prices to continue to drop this year assuming there's no government intervention. let's also take into consideration the government's recent suggestions of decoupling itself from the housing market. this is bad for those counting on home prices increasing for two reasons a) the obvious one is that if fannie/freddie go away, private businesses will have to fill the gap of providing/backing mortgages. this necessarily means mortgages will be more expensive and ultimately result in lower priced houses. b) the less obvious point is that the government is strongly signaling their future intentions with respect to real estate. they want nothing to do with it. they realize the government subsidies to home owners is partially responsible for this mess. the mess being inflated prices and a subsequent crash. the government wants to exit the mess of subsidizing housing. and if they are successful, prices should decline. there's still way too much bubble mentality today. i guess if you're blind, tone deaf or in denial you'll be oblivious to the signs. it takes a big picture view, and a micro view to make sense of things. i'm not calling for any crashes, but a slow deflation. you can see year after year fewer people are excited about real estate, the frenzied open houses are still happening but less and less. bidding wars see prices that never get close to the fervor that existed in 2006. it's pretty easy to identify the direction of the trend. all these smaller signals are congruent with the bigger macro picture of a declining real estate market. of course there are still positives (although not as positive as they used to be - which is the point), and bubble heads pick up only on these cues ignoring the vast amount of contradictory information. here's when i'll consider the RE market to be normal: - interest rates are around 9% or higher. - defaults/foreclosures are back to historical averages. - down payments are 10%-20%. from a purely risk averse point of view the best time to buy will be when these conditions are met. prices will almost certainly be higher in this environment, but then the potential for a continued declining market has been reduced which is what i'm interested in - capital preservation instead of appreciation.

14. jaded Follow Befriend 3 threads 23 comments

    16   10:01pm Fri 18 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   sybrib says jaded says 4. Discrentionary income for 1X week meals out, 2-week family trips in the summer, occasional weekend day trips to local attractions 5. Savings to pay for 30-40% of college education And owning a SFH to boot! This is a superbly high standard of living for most persons in the world. As such, hardly surprising that it is not attainable except for the elites. In most of the US this is attainable, or close enough for a middle class family.

15. evilmonkeyboy Follow Befriend (1) 2 threads 119 comments San Jose, CA

    17   10:35pm Fri 18 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   sybrib says Syphillis: Tuition at Harker ranges from 24K / yr for kindergarten to 35K / yr for grades 9-12. Mitty HS (Catholic) is 13.4 K per year. Valley Christian HS is 16.5K per year. Parents who covet High Standardized Test Scores for their kids, expect performance at coveted Fortress Public Schools to be on a par with (or even a lot better than) with the private schools. Besides, the property tax and interest on the loan are fully tax deductible. Not true for private HS tuition. Imagine a family with two or three kids, all in school at the same time! I think by your own arithmetic you can see that parents who covet such schools for their kids are including the education cost into the overall picture, something your thorough analysis did not take into account. Yes, it is true there are some outstanding schools districts in some parts of the BA, however renting a house in these area is far cheaper then buying. So if you use the education argument you can also reasonable argue that renting in these are is far cheaper then the cost of sending 3 kids to a private college prep. The real question is that if there truly is sustainable value in these homes then why is rent in these areas so affordable?

16. B.A.C.A.H. Follow Befriend (6) 5 threads 2,360 comments

    18   11:38pm Fri 18 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Evil, I agree with you. I know a couple of Fortress Resident coworkers who are doing that, for the reason you said. They don't drink the Cool-Aid. You don't have to own your residence to get your kids a coveted slot in a coveted school. You just have to be a resident. But if you wanna "rationalize" the high cost of owning, well that's true, too.

17. Hysteresis Follow Befriend (2) 14 threads 648 comments

    19   4:38am Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   evilmonkeyboy says sybrib says Syphillis: Tuition at Harker ranges from 24K / yr for kindergarten to 35K / yr for grades 9-12. Mitty HS (Catholic) is 13.4 K per year. Valley Christian HS is 16.5K per year. Parents who covet High Standardized Test Scores for their kids, expect performance at coveted Fortress Public Schools to be on a par with (or even a lot better than) with the private schools. Besides, the property tax and interest on the loan are fully tax deductible. Not true for private HS tuition. Imagine a family with two or three kids, all in school at the same time! I think by your own arithmetic you can see that parents who covet such schools for their kids are including the education cost into the overall picture, something your thorough analysis did not take into account. Yes, it is true there are some outstanding schools districts in some parts of the BA, however renting a house in these area is far cheaper then buying. So if you use the education argument you can also reasonable argue that renting in these are is far cheaper then the cost of sending 3 kids to a private college prep. The real question is that if there truly is sustainable value in these homes then why is rent in these areas so affordable? great point. there are also condos and townhomes in Palo Alto listed between $375k-$550k. $414-$518/sqft. $375k is affordable in the fortress or anywhere for that matter. the cheapest home for sale in Palo Alto(redfin) is $850k. $966/sqft. more than 2 times as expensive as the cheapest condo on a price and price/sqft basis. if the rationalization is the location demands a premium, then renting, condos and town homes should all demand premiums. but then what explains the large discrepancy between buying a single family home and other lesser living accommodations (see price-to-rent below). price to rent ratio calculations for PA. http://www.paloaltoonline.com/com_info/by_the_numbers.php Median home price (through June 2006)*: $1,395,000 Median home price (through June 2005)*: $1,350,000 Median home price (1990): $457,800 Double digit number at the end is price/annual-rent ratio Average monthly rent (2006): $2,162 (two bedroom, two bath)** -> 54 Average monthly rent (2005): $2,111 (two bedroom, two bath)** -> 53 Average monthly rent (2006): $1,754 (one bedroom, one bath)** -> 66 Average monthly rent (2005): $1,613 (one bedroom, one bath)** -> 70 Median monthly rent in 1990: $825 -> 46 price to rent across the US http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/22/buy-vs-rent-an-update/ SJ 33 SF 28

18. APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich Follow Befriend (28) 171 threads 4,227 comments Premium

    20   5:14am Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   Clearly the only answer is deregulation of the banking sector.

19. Nomograph Follow Befriend (1) 104 threads 2,851 comments

    21   7:09am Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Syphilis says i claim the majority of households don’t have or will not want to spend $32k/year on housing. That's about 1/3 the income for a 100K household. There are so many young, professional dual-income couples in the BA with 100K combined income it's not even funny. 32K/year is about 1400/mo each for a couple, which is less than rent when they were single.

20. thomas.wong1986 Follow Befriend 16 threads 4,426 comments

    22   3:33pm Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   sybrib says You just have to be a resident. But if you wanna “rationalize” the high cost of owning, well that’s true, too. And what a few families did was just rent a PO box ($60/yr), or use friends residence address in the "Fortress". I read that a few families did just that, Cupertino found about 100 cases. How many didnt get cought.. who knows. Anyways its just 4 years.. pretty short time wise.

21. thomas.wong1986 Follow Befriend 16 threads 4,426 comments

    23   3:38pm Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Nomograph says There are so many young, professional dual-income couples in the BA Professional dual-income families are not a new phenomenon in the Bay Area.

22. thomas.wong1986 Follow Befriend 16 threads 4,426 comments

    24   3:42pm Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   SF ace says For these reasons above, How is that any different from past decades when prices never went 2-3x in a few short years? Oh you have kids today... come on!

23. thomas.wong1986 Follow Befriend 16 threads 4,426 comments

    25   3:44pm Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   SF ace says 3) Nesting instinct is at an all all time

24. thomas.wong1986 Follow Befriend 16 threads 4,426 comments

    26   4:44pm Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Like I said, we had dual income families, lots of rug rats too.. etc etc etc ... Is that any different than prior decades.. Its not like all of sudden SFBA appeard out of nowhere after the year 2000. How old are you people ? How long have you been in San Francisco or should I say CA in general ?

25. iwog Follow Befriend (48) 274 threads 12,583 comments 47 male Lafayette, CA Premium

    27   4:48pm Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   thomas.wong1986 says Like I said, we had dual income families, lots of rug rats too.. etc etc etc … Is that any different than prior decades.. Its not like all of sudden SFBA appeard out of nowhere after the year 2000. How old are you people ? How long have you been in San Francisco or should I say CA in general ? Why don't you focus on the topic instead of how long someone has lived in California? You're not going to win an argument by convincing people you've lived here all your life. It's not really all about you.

26. thomas.wong1986 Follow Befriend 16 threads 4,426 comments

    28   4:55pm Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   iwog says Why don’t you focus on the topic instead of how long someone has lived in California? Yes you and SFAce are right.. its different now .. everyone has the urge to be a duck and nest. God! newcomers gonna drive us CA natives nuts.

27. iwog Follow Befriend (48) 274 threads 12,583 comments 47 male Lafayette, CA Premium

    29   4:56pm Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   I've lived in Northern California since 1970. I just don't think it's relevant to anything I have to say. I'd feel stupid parading it around like a badge of intelligence.

28. thomas.wong1986 Follow Befriend 16 threads 4,426 comments

    30   5:05pm Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   iwog says I’ve lived in Northern California since 1970. I just don’t think it’s relevant to anything I have to say. Then you should know better! But your a product of the mass media generation.

29. iwog Follow Befriend (48) 274 threads 12,583 comments 47 male Lafayette, CA Premium

    31   5:14pm Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   thomas.wong1986 says Then you should know better! But your a product of the mass media generation. You mean I should know better about 1800-2000 sq. ft. homes built in 1996 selling for $200,000. in Sunnyvale? Robert, the problem with you isn't experience. The problem with you is that you lie too much and disregard facts if they don't support your bias.

30. thomas.wong1986 Follow Befriend 16 threads 4,426 comments

    32   5:21pm Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   http://archive.dqnews.com/AA1996BAY10.shtm Med($K) Sept96. Alameda $208 Contra Costa $210 Marin $315 Napa $170 San Francisco $270 San Mateo $305 Santa Clara $265 Solano $133 Sonoma $185 Bay Area $236

31. iwog Follow Befriend (48) 274 threads 12,583 comments 47 male Lafayette, CA Premium

    33   5:24pm Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   Which one of those is an 1800-2000 sq. ft. new house on the border of Sunnyvale and Mountain View selling for $200,000? I said I'd take back everything I've said about you if you could find ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE. That's one hell of an offer. I wonder why you didn't take it?

32. thomas.wong1986 Follow Befriend 16 threads 4,426 comments

    34   5:29pm Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   iwog says That’s one hell of an offer. I wonder why you didn’t take it? Like I said, bought my house in Los Gatos back in 1992 when you were just a young sprout.

33. iwog Follow Befriend (48) 274 threads 12,583 comments 47 male Lafayette, CA Premium

    35   5:35pm Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   thomas.wong1986 says iwog says That’s one hell of an offer. I wonder why you didn’t take it? Like I said, bought my house in Los Gatos back in 1992 when you were just a young sprout. That doesn't explain why you lied about home prices. I know you can do the search, you post links to specific homes all the time. Where's one example of a new 1800-2000 sq. ft. house selling for $200,000? I bet you can't even find one for $250,000!

34. thomas.wong1986 Follow Befriend 16 threads 4,426 comments

    36   5:54pm Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   OK! if not 200-250K.. than what prices back in 1996 ? Was it all above the median $265K maybe ?

35. iwog Follow Befriend (48) 274 threads 12,583 comments 47 male Lafayette, CA Premium

    37   5:59pm Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   thomas.wong1986 says OK! if not 200-250K.. than what prices back in 1996 ? Was it all above the median $265K maybe ? I'm sure you understand that a brand new house sold in 1996 from 1800-2000 sq. ft. in a prime area is going to be well above the median. My problem is that you were making this assertion to attack someone else. You're entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.

36. ¥ Follow Befriend 35 threads 5,700 comments Bellingham, WA

    38   6:00pm Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   I don't know what you people are arguing about now but here's some new 1990s construction in Sunnyvale near MV: http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/892-Kearney-Ter-Sunnyvale-CA-94086/19522141_zpid/ $324,000 in 1993 for 1600sf as new

37. iwog Follow Befriend (48) 274 threads 12,583 comments 47 male Lafayette, CA Premium

    39   6:02pm Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   Troy says I don’t know what you people are arguing about now but here’s some new 1990s construction in Sunnyvale near MV: http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/892-Kearney-Ter-Sunnyvale-CA-94086/19522141_zpid/ $324,000 in 1993 for 1600sf as new That's about right. Thomas claimed this house sold for $200,000 or even less because it's under 1800 sq. ft.

38. thomas.wong1986 Follow Befriend 16 threads 4,426 comments

    40   6:13pm Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   iwog says That’s about right. Thomas claimed this house sold for $200,000 or even less because it’s under 1800 sq. ft. LOL! Mine was certainly much less than 324K.

39. iwog Follow Befriend (48) 274 threads 12,583 comments 47 male Lafayette, CA Premium

    41   6:27pm Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   thomas.wong1986 says LOL! Mine was certainly much less than 324K. Well since you're obviously not living there anymore, perhaps you can link it and we can see if it conforms to your "memory". I think it would be smarter just to admit you made a mistake.

40. thomas.wong1986 Follow Befriend 16 threads 4,426 comments

    42   6:32pm Sat 19 Feb 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   iwog says Well since you’re obviously not living there anymore, perhaps you can link it and we can see if it conforms to your “memory”. LOL! still live there.. sorry i dont give out my address, foolish one!

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