Like a lot of people on here I am a renter in the SF Bay Area saving money and waiting for prices to become a little less insane. I work in the city (SF) and I absolutely refuse to commute everyday from some far off town so I can have a big house. So lately I have noticed that prices in the area I am interested in are coming down even know this is supposed to be the prime selling season. So I had a conversation with a broker today and he was saying that lots of real estate professionals, homeowners and sellers are very worried about a precipitous price drop coming soon to this area. This is something that I believed would happen but to hear it from a broker was quite shocking. Usually those guys only tell you what they think will make you buy right away. From my anecdotal experience prices are on the downswing with a few sucker buyers here and there paying top retail (that is still 20% less than 2006) . There are also lots of sellers in a dream world where they think their house is worth $700k or more but it has been has been on the market for six months with no bids and minimal price reductions. Has anyone else on here heard predictions of pending price reductions coming from the real estate industry? Maybe this guy is one of the rare honest RE professionals because I can't see how saying that prices will soon come down will help him make a sale.
Heard today from a broker: Lots of Houseowners are worried about a precipitous price drop coming.
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mdovell says
Wealthy liberals are really dumb and out of touch with any sort of reality.
For a very long time I've head that Santa Monica is an extremely diverse place. My dealings in Santa Monica in the past have been minimal...visits to 3rd Street, and also to a night club off of Olympic. Always at night. Yesterday, my GF and I went to eat at a restaurant in the heart of Santa Monica.
I've never seen so many caucasian people in one place at one time. Like 95% white, 3% asian, and 2 black people. I was stunned. My parents live in HB, and I've never once seen such a lack of ethnic mix.
Yet, SM is touted as a place of great diversity, and I'm pretty sure the rich evil liberals there love to take pride in their incorrect belief.
I wonder if there is any correlation between rich liberals in SM and rich liberals in SF.
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FunTime says
This mammal likes summer. 80 degrees and sunny.
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iwog says
Except that it's not. I used to live and work in Paris. I grew up in the Chicago Area. More people in Paris talked about New York, LA, and Chicago as US destinations than San Francisco. It was very rare that I heard anyone mention San Francisco in Paris. It just wasn't on their radar unless I mentioned it. And back then, I really never thought about San Francisco much either. The only place in Paris where I would hear people mention San Francisco without prompting was in Le Marais among the gay men there.
I want to know where you've found all of this "culturally significant stuff" to see and do in San Francisco. Really, I want to know because I've lived here almost 9 years and I still haven't found a local art scene that comes even close to the diverse and exciting art scene of Chicago. I miss it. I miss the performance art, original theater productions (not coming from broadway), Second City, the mulititudinous ethnic neighborhoods each with their own character and language spoken, original independent film industry, independent music scene that included Jazz, Blues, and even some country. I haven't found an equal to Chicago's Art Institute here. Also the Chicago Symphany Orchestra and the Lyric Opera have no rival here.
Please show me where these wonderful culturally interesting things are to do and see. I really want to see them.
Beach Blanket Babylon and Tranny Shack aren't exactly high theater but it's about the only original San Francisco theater that you will find in San Francisco. Your art museums pale in comparision to art museums in New York, Washington D.C., and Chicago. I've found some interesting local performances in Berkeley and Oakland. Hip Hop is happening here.
People who grow up in San Francisco do share a lot in common with people who grew up in Boston. I've known many Bostonians in my day. Both San Franciscans and Bostonians have an inflated sense of importance of their cities as meccas of culture, the arts, and tourism. Both San Franciscans and Bostonians don't really have much of a sense of what else is out there in the USA because they really haven't done much to explore beyond their own back yards believing that they have it all. If they would be willing to look outside of their area, they'd find a whole world out there full of people that don't even have Boston or San Francisco enter their consciousness even when planning a vacation.
Boston, at least, has more to brag about than San Francisco historically. It's a much older and richer history.
Growing up in the Chicago Area we always heard about things that were happening in New York and Los Angeles. Las Vegas was talked about a lot simply because of the gambling and the wild reputation of the place. If San Francisco was mentioned, it was in passing as the place where the "Summer of Love" happened and where the Castro is.
I do have to add that seeing the Castro for the first time was an extreme let down. I was used to North Halsted (Boystown), Chicago. North Halsted is larger, more active, cleaner, friendlier, and much much safer than Castro is. I really hoped that I'd fall in love with the Castro and looked for places to live near it even though I was going to move out here to go to school in the East Bay. I found that I didn't care for Castro much at all. It seems like an unfriendly, dank, dreary, sad, and dirty gay ghetto. In Chicago we used to joke about "Boystown Clones" and how very white that neighborhood can be. But I wasn't prepared to find that Castro had the "clone effect" more entrenched than Boystown. As a gay man, I avoid Castro as much as possible because I never have fun there whenever I've gone. I've been there many times with various groups of friends and I find myself bored and spending way too much money for too little entertainment. The only fun street party that I liked was the Halloween Party on Market and Castro. But that had to be shut down because people were getting stabbed and shot. Our outdoor street parties never had such violence in Boystown, Chicago.
New York's Greenwich Village is much more exciting than either Castro or Boystown. And New York is where the Gay Rights Movement was founded (Stonewall) and not San Francisco.
California itself isn't even all that progressive. You guys still have sodomy laws on the books. Illinois was the first state to strike their sodomy laws off their books and they did it in 1969 (How cool is that?).
So, as a transplant who has lived in Paris, France; Baltimore, MD; Chicago, IL (city and suburbs); Davenport, IA; and Oakland, CA, I can say that I'm not impressed by San Francisco as a cultural mecca. Paris, France is by far superior to even New York, IMHO. However, I've only visited New York once.
Oh, and if you want the best weather in the Bay Area, you want to live in Oakland or San Leandro. You won't need your air conditioner but we are mostly in the 70's and we see the sun just about every day of the year. Who ever said that a reason to live in San Francisco because of the weather must enjoy gray and chilly weather almost all year.
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United States destinations
1. New York
2. Los Angeles
3. San Francisco
http://www.euromonitor.com/top-150-city-destinations-london-leads-the-way/article
Again.......I agree that San Francisco sucks and people here are arrogant and self-important and everything else. I like San Francisco because it's the best place in the world to own a sailboat and eat out. I hate San Francisco because of what liberals and/or gay men have done to the culture and the laws here. I think this is one of the worst places in the entire world to find a wife, and if I was at all free to change my home right now I certainly would NOT pick it.
HOWEVER I want to be real clear about one thing. Whenever I travel abroad, saying I'm from San Francisco (or California in general) is the best way to become a rock star. It seems like everyone has been to New York or at least knows a lot about it. Same with Florida. California on the other hand is perceived as a distant planet of paradise.
I do not agree with it, but I'd be stupid to ignore it and pretend it isn't real. I brought up this point in another thread, and I'll bring it up again here. When it comes to where people want to live, the most accurate vote is what people pay for a property.
The Bay Area is the #2 and #4 most expensive real estate in the entire country: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/ontheblock/detail?entry_id=73053 However when you look at world lists, San Francisco real estate is remarkably cheap.
This gap is why I like the area for investment.
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never trust the lying duck
http://www.euromonitor.com/top-150-city-destinations-london-leads-the-way/article
Top 150 City Destinations 2006
City Ranking '000 tourist arrivals
London 1 15,640
Bangkok 2 10,350
Paris 3 9,700
Singapore 4 9,502
Hong Kong 5 8,139
New York City 6 6,219
Dubai 7 6,120
Rome 8 6,033
Seoul 9 4,920
Barcelona 10 4,695
Dublin 11 4,469
Bahrain 12 4,418
Shanghai 13 4,315
Toronto 14 4,160
Kuala Lumpur 15 4,125
Istanbul 16 3,994
Madrid 17 3,921
Amsterdam 18 3,901
Mecca 19 3,800
Prague 20 3,702
Moscow 21 3,695
Beijing 22 3,593
Vienna 23 3,339
Taipei 24 3,280
St.Petersburg 25 3,200
Cancun 26 3,074
Macau 27 3,072
Venice 28 2,927
Warsaw 29 2,925
Mexico 30 2,823
Los Angeles 31 2,513
Guangzhou 32 2,512
Benidorm 33 2,457
Berlin 34 2,309
Rio De Janeiro 35 2,185
Budapest 36 2,043
San Francisco 37 1,993
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Thank you for confirming what I just wrote. San Francisco is the #3 United States destination.
I'm not sure why you would say I'm lying other than you think acting like a dick attracts the ladies.
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dodgerfanjohn says
The more southern zip codes of Santa Monica have a much higher Latino population than the northern zip codes. This may not be reflected in restaurant choice. Demographically, Santa Monica is 78% white, and 13% Hispanic/Latino of any race.
Re: San Francisco, it's about 80-85% white/Asian, and has been for a while, but the mix has changed. It was closer to 60% white and 20% Asian in 1980, but is more like 50-50% white and 30% Asian now.
The ways I find San Francisco provincial sometimes: It seems like plenty of people are from out of town and want San Francisco to be the opposite of the small town/Southern town/Midwest town they grew up in. This creates an odd tension between native SFers vs. the vast number of newcomers that doesn't always resolve well and doesn't always result in effective city government or consistent policies (e.g. planning/housing policies, transit, etc.). It also means that some people are more unsophisticated as to tastes (food, museums, etc.) than would be expected in somewhere like SF because they grew up places where you wouldn't necessarily have diversity in those things. It's also a surprisingly intolerant place if you don't fully agree with the stereotyped San Francisco political view, even if you only mildly disagree. The other bizarre thing is the high number of renters vs. owners, but also the high number of owners who benefit a ridiculous amount from Prop 13. San Franciscans also have a highly inflated view of San Francisco, such that if you criticize an aspect, you're either "not accepting of life in the city" or "intolerant" or some other negative comment, as if people have never spent time in other cities that have dealt with the same problems in different ways that were more effective. There's a weird insecurity about San Francisco and how great it is; SFers constantly feel the need to trash LA, but the reverse doesn't happen much.
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iwog says
Not completely true. That can easily be manipulated by land use restrictions, as the Bay Area's land values are. There is plenty of space in the Bay Area; you just can't build on most of it.
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tatupu70 says
HaHa. Yes. Agreed, this mammal would enjoy another five to ten degrees F every now and then. On the whole, the weather in San Franisco is very comfortable. When I travel to D.C. and Vegas(the only cities where I travel more than once a year), I find it interesting that the hotel room thermostats are almost always set to 68 degrees F. I end up thinking, "Oh just like home." Then I turn it up so the air conditioning will turn off.
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dunnross says
The interesting fact about my cousin is that he lives in NY.
In light of the context of your post, I was deeply compelled. This compelling force is surely an illustration of that which you wrote.
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corntrollio says
Or a classic comment from a lifetime SF resident:
"People out in the San Francisco Bay Area don't have _real_ places to be as do we San Franciscans. I don't care what they say or do."
(the guy who wrote this is a smallscale slumlord who rents out a real dive in the Mission, while going on all the time about what a great progressive he is).
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simchaland says
Awesome! You're in for a treat. I could never exhaustively provide a list, but here's a tiny start.
Exit Theater(local indie theater), Cafe du Nord(lots of local and national music of all types including jazz), Bottom of the Hill(more indie rock, but a lot of other national and local music), The Boom Boom Room, The Hemlock Tavern(where I first heard Joanna Newsom), Hotel Utah Saloon(some country leaning local bands), Theatre of Yugen(all kinds of things, including the most incredible Japanese puppeted Italian opera I've ever seen)
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corntrollio says
I also find this annoying, but have thankfully found many other San Franciscans who open themselves to thoughts outside of neat liberal platform packages.
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Just to note I want to make it a bit clear I have no problem with liberals or rich people but the limousine liberals don't really jive with me. Also I'm not bashing CA. I hear LA is nice and Santa Barbara sounds really nice.
"People who grow up in San Francisco do share a lot in common with people who grew up in Boston. I’ve known many Bostonians in my day. Both San Franciscans and Bostonians have an inflated sense of importance of their cities as meccas of culture, the arts, and tourism. Both San Franciscans and Bostonians don’t really have much of a sense of what else is out there in the USA because they really haven’t done much to explore beyond their own back yards believing that they have it all. If they would be willing to look outside of their area, they’d find a whole world out there full of people that don’t even have Boston or San Francisco enter their consciousness even when planning a vacation.
Boston, at least, has more to brag about than San Francisco historically. It’s a much older and richer history."
I don't know if you've been to boston (I grew up in the metro area). Some of what you say might be true but it depends. The sport scene is probably the best in the country, the bar scene is nice...It is an odd mix of a state. The real left wing parts are west of worchester..where it also has far fewer people (berkshire county (very rural) only has 130K people..county..not town..county).The problems the area has is too much of the state is tax exempt, this is not an area where people will retire to and there are urban areas that have been left behind (old mill towns). I'd also say that if every student that graduated from the state stayed in it (including immigrants) we be the most populated state in the country! High debt levels and a degree means a flight to a cheaper place.
I think what you are saying was more true during the 80's but not as much now.
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Barcelona. There's a city.
MyPunanyIsBiggerThanYourPunany says
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corntrollio says
The restaurant was El Cholo.
While El Cholo is no where near authentic mexican food, the downtown LA location on non Staples center event nights is around 80-90% latino customers. I live down the street and the neighborhood is highly mixed.
The only latinos in El Cholo Santa Monica last night were the employees.
God I hate liberals so much.
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dunnross says
They are not conceited and arrogant.
They are Cool and Hip.
And "doing the kid thing" can interfere with that.
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FunTime says
Thank you so much! That's what I wanted to know. Now I have some exploring to do.
The Duck failed to answer my question completely. Thanks for paying attention. I'm looking forward to checking these things out. :-)
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FunTime says
Nuts and bolts facts of workaday life are a whole lot more important than Cool Japanese Puppets or whatever. Preoccupation with all that stuff is for a very small fraction of rich people with the money and leisure time, and also the Cool and Hip.
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dodgerfanjohn says
You've got some real problems, my friend.
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APOCALYPSEFUCK says
Damn straight. I lived there for a while and my wife is from there. Favorite city in the world (even after seeing the movie Biutiful).
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Beverly Hills, CA
Bring it ON!!!
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Not surprising since a large tract building supervisor told me the big secret ...less than $50/sq ft cost to build new.
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sybrib says
Really? I like cultural experiences, art, music, theater, dance, etc.
I don't make very much. Growing up we didn't have much money. My parents exposed us to a rich tapestry of art, music, theater, dance, culural experiences, cuisines, etc. My father, being 1/2 Italian, was an Opera fanatic. He was always blasting opera such that the walls would vibrate while the neighbors would blast rock, top 40, and country. Also he'd play jazz, swing, and the blues on the stereo.
My parents would bring us to free concerts in Grant Park, Chicago. They'd take us to museums on "free days." They would take us to many natural areas in Illinois and Wisconsin. Once Dad made a little more money, he would take us on longer road trips where we would drive, see sights, and stay in cheap motels. Dad was a high school English teacher so he made sure we went to the libraries to check out books. Mom liked to teach us art and crafts.
You don't have to be rich or in the leisure class to enjoy what life has to offer. You just have to have some curiosity and creativity to find this stuff on the cheap if you are working class like me and my family.
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simchaland says
Yup. Enjoying is not the same as a preoccupation. I enjoy the arts too. And I enjoyed seeing productions at my kids' public high school as much as seeing the shows in the SF Theatre District. No, I take that back. I did like the shows in SF, but I liked the amateur ones even more.
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FunTime says
Thats why residents, young ones, are broke. Live paycheck to paycheck. Gotta to out gotta spend on the trendy stuff... the above isnt free nor cheap.
Its true, we in the south bay, lack culture .. too busy working 10-12 hour days. And whats the payoff? A chance to do things others dream of.
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Even better than the Hip and Cool Culture is the recreation stuff around here that is possible because of the topography. But that can cost even more than the culture, because of the gear and the travel. It is the reason even though I only ever lived here, my first trip to the slopes was in my 40's already. At that point, might as well learn snowboarding with my kids, because the skiscene looks so much more pretentious.
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sybrib says
Any chance of me firing off a couple rounds from my .308 in SF prime ? Na! I think not... You know you can do duck hunting in Sunnyvale...
http://mountainview.patch.com/articles/start-of-duck-hunting-season-rattles-some-feathers
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Meh, I'm not into musicals. I don't count Broadway shows that make it to all major US cities as original theater. I could see all those shows back in Chicago or New York. They don't make San Francisco a cultural mecca. They are cast offs from New York.
There are real Picasso installations in Chicago that are part of that city's regular ambiance that Picasso actually created for Chicago and he installed these installations himself. They are unique pieces that are uniquely Chicagoan. The Art Institute of Chicago has originals from masters that are permanent installations. King Tut made it to Chicago in the 1970's and in the early 2000's and I saw it both times. Also I've been to Cairo to see the real thing at the Cairo Museum. And I went to the Valley of the Kings to visit the real tombs.
None of that is uniquely San Francisco.
Also, those 66 concerts make their tours to every major city in the US. That isn't uniquely San Franciscan.
I'm looking for San Francisco's contribution to the world of the arts. I'm still not seeing much that originates in San Francisco.
For a city that does a lot of bragging about being a mecca of culture, San Francisco doesn't contribute much to the arts that is unique and originates from San Francisco.
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thomas.wong1986 says
Just curious--what is that?
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San Leandro, CA
illustrateth's website
The DeYoung museum has a fantastic collection of Asian art if you're interested in that.
There's a restaurant called, "The Garlic Rose," where everything you order has garlic in it.
If you want really good Chinese food, it's really in Mountain View and Cupertino now, I think SF chinatown is a bit more touristy these days. The spicy Beef Noodle Soup at A&Js in Cupertino used to be very good. I don't know if it still is.
The maritime museum is supposed to be pretty good.
Is it Angel Island? You can see where a lot of Chinese immigrants came to SF during the gold rush and wrote poems on the walls wall waiting to be admitted into CA.
Alcatraz
For biology class, we did a boat tour of San Francisco bay and took samples of fish, etc. I don't know if they offer anything like that for tourists. The SF opera house is kind of interesting to see. No, it's not as fancy as the met, but if you sit in the balcony, you can have the unique feeling that you are going to fall out the balcony floor is so steep.
The conservatory (building left from the world's fair) and gardens in Golden Gate Park are supposed to be pretty good.
IN San Jose you can see the Winchester Mystery House.
There are a few redwood parks within a short driving distance of SF.
Not close, but Sonoma wine country (a little less touristy than Napa)
So, I've got little kids and not a lot of time to do touristy stuff right now, but those are a couple uniquely SF things I can think of off the top of my head.
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illustrateth's website
tech museum san jose
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Shhh! It will be our secret!
Waitingtobuy says
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thomas.wong1986 says
Oh man, I disagree with your last point. All of the places I mentioned rarely have events over twenty and most of the music clubs I mentioned usually have $7-10 cover charges.
Young people do live paycheck-to-paycheck, but that's not unique to SF. It's easy to understand too, with so many interesting events going on every week.
On top of what I listed, national touring music acts often start their tours on the West Coast because of the weather and they almost always play San Francisco unless they're a mega-big, popular act. So the Spring is incredible in SF. There's always way too many music acts to possibly catch.
I forgot the Hardly Strictly Bluegrass Festival in October!! One of the best events. Very crowded, but if you pick the strategy of hunkering down at one stage and staying put, soaking up some sun, and having a cold one, this event is amazing. And it's FREE.
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simchaland says
There are some really cool things with big music acts that happen because SF mostly has small venues. Like The Black Crowes playing five nights at The Fillmore.
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simchaland says
I can certainly understand a love affair with Chicago. I love that city and visit whenever I get a chance.
simchaland says
Like the Holdenberg sculpture on the Embarcadero? I get the idea you're looking for very specific things. I'd be surprised if you didn't find them.
simchaland says
Do you have a specific time period in mind? Only contemporary contributions?
It's difficult to attribute a city with major art contributions, since big changes and movements usually come from many individuals and locations and represent a more complex system than is reflected in simple labels like "The Beats" or "The Hippies" or "Psychedelia." The Grateful Dead, for example, spent a lot of their early development south of San Francisco near Palo Alto. Still San Francisco is generally attributed a role in fostering Beat Poetry, Psychedelic Music, New Journalism, American Punk music, major American cinema influence and contribution, metal music, and political/people movements which occurred in the 1960's. I'm an amateur student of these things, though, so check it out yourself.
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dodgerfanjohn says
You're talking about the valet-parked El Cholo in Santa Monica and trying to make a statement about diversity? That really makes your comment fall flat. It's like complaining there aren't enough Chinese people at the PF Chang's near the 3rd Street Promenade. That's not to say El Cholo is a bad place, but you have to put it in context.
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illustrateth says
Do you mean the Stinking Rose? It's not bad if you know what you're in for, but it's not that different from all the other tourist traps in North Beach except for the heavier garlic emphasis. Also, how is it uniquely San Francisco if you can find the exact same restaurant in Beverly Hills?
SF ace says
That's true of the Bay Area in general, and partly because of the wealth down the Peninsula, but that doesn't apply to the city and county of San Francisco.
Also, is your 130K millionaires in now 800K+ San Francisco accurate? I've seen heavy doubts about that number before, here is a random link off Google:
http://sfist.com/2009/07/16/two_studies_conflict_over_number_of.php
That's not to say that there aren't a decent number of wealthy folk in SF, but it's not as much as the rumors often say. The median income in SF is still quite low.
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Except where 1. employment is good 2. wages are good 3. new fools, e.g. foreigners with aspirations and no knowledge of history 4. excellent prime locations e.g. Carmel, prices in general are going down.
The situation will not improve with the present anti-energy, anti-business, pro-regulation climate. When this changes it will be after more political change. This requires elections.
Even then, if and when the economy improves so employment may improve, as soon as interest rates go up (which is inevitable), house prices will fall a little bit more.
People who have an emotional investment will argue and fight the reality staring them in the face. This is just typical human behavior.
The Catalyst in santa cruz is for sale for 2.2 million. There is so much empty commercial real estate in the downtown right now. There is a new and empty building across from O'Neill. There are tons of empty storefronts. My friend was almost bursting a vein in his neck arguing with me that the Catalyst would be a pretty good purchase for 2.2 million. I laughed at him.
Oh, he's got a little mortgage problem himself, so he's touchy on the subject.
Another guy I know inherited $90K and bought a tiny shack 670 square ft. for $450K, and wanted to "flip" it. Instead, he wanted to hold it a little while and make MORE Money. What happened? He lost it, lost everything, and the bank lost a bundle too.
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SF ace says
Again, that is San Francisco MSA (which does not include San Jose MSA), not the City and County of San Francisco. You are comparing apples and oranges because you are trying to make claims about the City and County of San Francisco by using data about either San Francisco MSA or the Bay Area in general.
San Francisco COUNTY does not even come up on the Top 25 for Median Household Income -- Marin and Santa Clara are 18th and 19th:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highest-income_counties_in_the_United_States