WatchI have a reader who wants to know how to make an anonymous offer on a house.
How would you do that? Since ownership info is sometimes in the name of a trust or corporation, I expect offers can be made in their name as well. But maybe that even gives away too much -- like that you have the wherewithal to set up a trust.
Any other advice on how to make an anonymous offer?
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thomas.wong1986 says
Once again, you are wrong.
If you want to make an offer on ANY BoFA REO, you need a pre-approval from them.
http://realestatecenter.bankofamerica.com/pages/map-search
Here is their offer instruction.
http://www.27ross.info/_PropertySiteData/_Documents/421_BofA_REO_Offer_Procedures_and_Sample_Addendums_07-01-10.pdf
Example of a MLS listing showing what is required.
http://www.century21town-country.com/Property/MI/48044/Macomb/20490_ST_MARTINS
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eastbaydude says
Read again...what I said:
"All those documents are between the buyer and bank/lender not the seller or their REA."
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most bank owned homes REQUIRE that you get prequalified with their lender. That is the SELLER nitwit... the bank that owns the home.
Further, an offer without proof of funds, and a loan approval won't be considered at all. So how are you going to come up with an anonymous loan approval? an anonymous bank statement?
Thomaswrong: you really are lost. You absolutely do have to show how you are going to pay for a home, to get your offer looked at.
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robertoaribas says
Not a common practice before the bubble years. But normal practice is lost these day. Only your bank/lender should have access to that material not a REA. Common sense anyone ?
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Patrick says
I totally agree with you Patrick. It's just human nature if someone thinks someone else has a lot of money they will hold out for more money. I've done the same thing when I've sold real estate I have owned. Apartments, houses, and even land. If I know the buyer has deep pockets, I naturally held out for more. I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with that.
But of course you just have to set a limit to what you will pay and stick to it. I try not to get too emotional when buying real estate and set a limit to how high I will go. Sure, I've lost plenty of great properties but my attitude is there will always be something else.
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Patrick et. al. are completely out of their conspiracy minds on this theory, that having more money leads to a higher price. I have bought 5 homes this year, all cash, and each time I send proof that I have tons more than the home costs. I send bank statements that prove I have 200K when buying 30K condos...
ALL of my deals are still the absolute all time low price purchase in their respective areas... when according to your theories I should have had to pay more...
1. the seller has eliminated all loan risk. They KNOW if the home passes inspections, and I'm not hit by a truck before the close date, it will close. Today, 25%+ of transactions don't close, due to loan and appraisal problems, so this is a serious concern for sellers.
2. I close quickly. 15 days typically, instead of the normal 45 to 60 that a loan takes.
3. If it is a short sale, the seller KNOWS I'm not going anywhere, even if I find another home to buy, I still buy theirs. Lots of short sales fail because the buyer finds another home during the long wait for bank approval.
4. a Loan approval has ALWAYS been required to have your offer taken seriously, that isn't anything new do to the bubble. And a loan approval has to have a name on it, and spell out how much you are putting down, that your funds have been verified, your income verified, your credit checked. maybe I'll up load a blank one here, since obviously we have a bunch of people with strong opinions based on 0 experience. I've been a party to 100's of transactions, and dozens of my own, so go ahead, argue with me from fantasy ideas...
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Professor,
thank you for sharing. You are so smart and savvy, thanks for lecturing us on how smart and savvy that you are.
I wonder why when you are so well ensconced in Phoenix you feel the need to spend so much time on a Bay Area focused blog sharing to Bay Areans about how to be so smart and so savvy (maybe Hip and Cool, too?).
I've been privileged to live my whole life in the Bay Area where the Hip and Cool come to from all over the USA and all over the world teach to podunk local like me "like it is". But it's really taken it to a hol'nuva'level to be privileged to have a College Professor "come over" here in the virtual world to do that.
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thomas.wong1986 says
Roberto gave the correct reply. No seller will take an offer without proof of funds or proof of the buyer's ability to pay.
I also want to comment on this other statement,
The credit line doesn't matter. Sellers can't jack the price to meet the credit line because banks now only lend to the appraised amount. If the house in question is appraised at only $275,000. No bank will even lend the $300K. Seller will have to drop their price down to get any finance buyers.
Lastly, about Mr Wong's "common practice" statement. Well, I would think it is common sense a seller takes offers from only qualified buyers. Qualified as in a buyer who has the proof of funds or guarantee of financing. Any joe on the street can come in an make an offer and walk away. The seller will be left holding the bag in a market where buyers are scarce. If I was a competing seller, I'd just show up and make stupid and crazy offers like 550K on that 300K house with no intention to buy. The qualified buyers' offers would not be looked at (under thomas.wong's scenario). I'd tie up and waste the seller's time and make sure all the qualified buyers go elsewhere (hint: look at my house instead).
Heck, I'd do that to all the houses in the neighborhood and only mine would get serious offers.
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go through a third party that will make it clear to the seller that you prefer to stay anonymous. You can than use multiple layer LLC to keep anonymity.
It can all be tracked down, but it's a lot of hastle. Most people won't care to do so. I would imagine most people would be happy someone is willing to buy their balloon finally.
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eastbaydude says
Now look back and see how many recent buyers during the past bubble years forged all the financial documents and incomes. All looked good on paper, but at the end were unable to actually pay for the home. They were the winning bidders.
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eastbaydude says
The Appraised amounts were jacked up as many appraisers would attest to. And that pressure came from REA. They threw a red flag very early in the bubble, but no one listened.
http://www.appraiserspetition.com/
The concern of this petition has to do with our "independent judgment" in performing real estate appraisals. We, the undersigned, represent a large number of licensed and certified real estate appraisers in the United States, who seek your assistance in solving a problem facing us on a daily basis. Lenders (meaning any and all of the following: banks, savings and loans, mortgage brokers, credit unions and loan officers in general; not to mention real estate agents) have individuals within their ranks, who, as a normal course of business, apply pressure on appraisers to hit or exceed a predetermined value.
This pressure comes in many forms and includes the following:
the withholding of business if we refuse to inflate values,
the withholding of business if we refuse to guarantee a predetermined value,
the withholding of business if we refuse to ignore deficiencies in the property,
refusing to pay for an appraisal that does not give them what they want,
black listing honest appraisers in order to use "rubber stamp" appraisers, etc.
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eastbaydude says
As was discussed on Pnet many times over, all you need is an open bidding process where all the interested parties, seller and buyers with their agent/lawyer are present on a given day (say weekend) and can make open verbal offers. An open auction if you will. You can have the final signed contract after the final offer accepted.
That will eliminate the riff raff and the fake (phantom) bidders.
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robertoaribas's website
thomas wrong, go make up your own real estate market then. one where you make anonymous bids on a saturday in an open process... As for me, i live in this place called REALITY. I comment on how homes are actually sold, but if you prefer to buy in sell in some fantasy land, so be it.
sybib: thanks for an entire post that is nothing but a pathetic personal attack. That's ok, that is what people who don't know anything usually do: attack the poster, because you have nothing to say to dispute the content.
PRICE is only one factor. strength of the offer also often matters, people get tired of having contract after contract fail when the buyer can't qualify, all the while continuing to amass taxes, insurance, hoa fees, landscape fees etc. on an empty home. So a lower priced strong offer will often prevail.
As to the "third party make the offer" Good luck! The standard real estate contracts in most states specifically disallow assignment of rights. Write that in yourself, and you just guaranteed that most listing agents will advise their sellers not to accept that offer.
Go ahead call a listing agent with "an anonymous offer." I am a listing agent, you know what I'll reply? Write it up, send POF and LSR [proof of funds, and loan status report] and then I'll present it. Otherwise, get lost.
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Patrick is in the Bay Area. This website is focused mainly on the Bay Area. Many of those who post are in the Bay Area. Thomas Wong, like sybrib (me) are locals of the Bay Area.
Bay Areans are mostly busy with their lives in the Bay Area, and are not so pretentious as to claim to know what makes folks tick in Other Places like Phoenix or Chicago. They should be experts on their regions, because that's their regions and their expertise. But their regions are mostly irrelevant to Bay Areans except when it affects national politics.
You can lecture Bay Areans all you want from your podium at the community college in Phoenix, (or as a Realtor® in Phoenix), - nobody doubts your savvy and knowledge about your world.
In Phoenix. At the community college; at the realty.
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Sybrib says
Well, I'm from the Bay Area and I don't claim to be no expert but Thomas Wrong is wrong.
I've been looking to buy a house since January of 2011 in areas such as Concord, Martinez, Pleasant Hill so my experiences are very relevant
because everything I've mentions is status-quo current and topical in terms of what I've seen in my RE shopping experience.
Nobody accepts an offer without proof of funds. Nobody looks at an offer without an offer contract.
The fact of the matter is, Thomas is completely wrong. It isn't a matter of opinion. Just call up any listing agent for a BofA or a Wells Fargo REO and ask them what is their offer requirement. Plain and simple.
thomas.wong1986 says
Thomas Wrong keeps on bringing up what happen during the bubble years. My experiences are as of Feb-April 2011.
Appraisals in the last 6 months are completely opposite from what he is claiming. They're actually lower and more than often, lower than listing price. Real Estate agents are pulling their hairs because appraisals are lower.
I don't know what the new regulatory laws are but every house I've made an offer, the sellers get pissed off that the banks want an out-of-town appraiser due to recent regulatory laws.
Out-of-town appraisers who are unfamilar with the market are often appraising houses 15-30K less than listing price.
My point is, banks will not finance anything over appraised value. Period. So if a house is listed for 300K, I offer 275K, the appraisal comes in at 250. I have to come up with the 20k difference.
BofA, Chase, Wells Fargo will NOT lend over appraised amount.
This is why if you tracked any house you've been interested in, you'll see many houses in 2009-2010 sold for way less than their asking price. Thomas mades the argument, if the seller knows the credit line, they can somehow leverage that bargaining.
My point is no. This has caused many problems that I've articulatd before.
Too many people were over-bidding above listing price because they KNEW the sellers had to renogiate to match lower appraisals.
As of now, sellers have no-appraisals contigencies. If it comes in lower, that is the buyers problem and there was no exit clause.
Cash buyers don't have that problem but a finance buyer will. Many lenders want those exit-clauses. Some buyers can use that to their advantage (different topic).
Point is, many sellers want to know who the lender is. They also want to know if it is conventional 20% loan or FHA. I've been told 20% loans and cash offers always get first look. FHA gets toss aside or if the other offers fail.
So, as of 2011, sellers IN THE San Francisco "BAY AREA" want to know how the buyers will pay for the property.
This whole thing about a weekend secret auction thing w/ RE or Lawyers making random bids is ridiculous. Even REA who represent the buyer wants to know if the buyer is capable of completing the transaction.
Also. One thing to note. A pre-qualified letter from the lender is not the same thing as a pre-approval. With strict under-writing for 20% conventional loans, someone pre-qualified may not get the mortgage once it hits escrow.
Sellers also want to pre-screen the buyers and avoid a disqualification 45 days into the deal. Some sellers want to know if the buyer can come up with the appraisal difference or whether the finance buyer has enough to cover down and closing,etc....
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thomas.wong1986 says
Again, everything I said refers to the status-quo as of 2011. Underwriting is stricter for 20% conventional loans. I'm doing a conventional 15 or 30 year loan. I don't know how it works with FHA or anything else.
Again, my statement and question to you is when was the last time you were house shopping?
When I did my mortgage application process this April. The banks even asked me why I had a $60 cash ATM deposit in the month of February. Serious. They wanted to know where $60 came from. Kid's child-care? Why was I paying cash and not checks? What was I trying to hide from the month of March?
They even scrutinized why I had a 30K IRS tax refund. I had to show them 4 years of tax returns to show them how and why I got that refund.
Work overtime and have got a $10K bonus? Well, guess what, that bonus wasn't added to my income when they did my debt-income ratio calculations. A one year bonus is not calculated.
My company lease car? Well, the lease is in my name but I had to get my company accounting department to write a letter and show they make the payment so it wasn't calculated in my income ratio.
In fact, it was stricter and more detail then when I bought my first property in 1998.
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eastbaydude says
If you wish to discuss REO than do so, your dealing with a bank. The orginal question did not pertain to REOs. Good prudence in keeping your personal and financial information under control still stands. Then and today.
robertoaribas says
Look around Robert, REALITY in the RE market over the past 10-12 years has been broken.
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eastbaydude says
And would you also disclose all this information to a seller and their REA, strangers you dont know ?
I bought back in the early 90s, and we are heading back to the same strict lending standards you speak of. No different what I went through. I also gave a pint of my own blood.
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thomas.wong1986 says
No, I was not referring to giving this type of detail info to the seller. They want to know if you have proof of funds for a down-payment, closing and your ability to get finance.
My point is sellers want qualified buyers.
I was replying to the fact you need to be qualified and the bank does a lot of the legwork for the sellers.
In my example, the lending institution is very strict and I was rebutting your assumptions that the status quo is laxed in terms of underwriting. It isn't.
A qualified buyer today is much more qualified than in 2005-2007.
A seller would probably want to know who pre-approved. They pick a 20% convention from Wells Fargo over a FHA from some New Jersey chop-shop mortgage broker.
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eastbaydude says
That is totally funny! Dont you just hate how the market goes into a era of "corrections". Have fun! your paying less, and saving more cash today and into the future.
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eastbaydude says
Sure, you tell them verbally "YES"!. And if that isnt good enough tell them to go fuck themself.
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eastbaydude says
I never stated lending was laxed. My point is regarding privacy.
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thomas.wong1986 says
Again, this is WHY sellers want to see if you have proof of funds to cover. If you just have 20% for the down payment, why would the seller even accept the offer from a buyer who may not be able to come up with the difference if the appraisal comes in lower. No on really knows what the house is worth until it gets appraised. Once it is appraised, it is in the MLS and they can't re-list it and try to get a different buyer willing to pay the higher "listing" price.
This is why sellers have no-exit appraisal contigencies for normal (non-short/non-REO) properties too. They even want no-inspection exit contigencies as well.
If a seller knows they won't get their price (thru appraisal),they may want a cash buyer.
If a seller knows there is something wrong with the roof, they
will not want a inspection-exit clause in the offer contract. Hence, they don't want FHA buyers.
Without proof of funds, how they hell will a seller know if the buyer is cash, conventional finance, arm finance, or FHA?
This is why your whole auction scenario will never work.
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eastbaydude says
This is about an "offer", not terms or language of a final CONTRACT. You do understand what the question above asking.
Again, its not the business of Sellers or Realtors how the property is going to be purchased. That is between the Buyer and their Bank/Lender.
When you sign an contract, as buyer, you have an obligations to the contract. There is no weasling out.
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robertoaribas says
Agent/Principle relationship duties/responsibilites as stated in Common Law. Actual and Apperant (expressed/implied) Authority. Ring a bell ?
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eastbaydude says
Realtors just hate the idea of an open transparent market place.
Open market, competitive, acting prudently, undue stimulas, well informed, best interests, reasonable time.
Do any of these terms mean anything to you ?
>"The most probable price (in terms of money) which a property should bring in a competitive and open market under all conditions requisite to a fair sale, the buyer and seller each acting prudently and knowledgeably, and assuming the price is not affected by undue stimulus. Implicit in this definition is the consummation of a sale as of a specified date and the passing of title from seller to buyer under conditions whereby: the buyer and seller are typically motivated; both parties are well informed or well advised, and acting in what they consider their best interests; a reasonable time is allowed for exposure in the open market; payment is made in terms of cash in United States dollars or in terms of financial arrangements comparable thereto; and the price represents the normal consideration for the property sold unaffected by special or creative financing or sales concessions granted by anyone associated with the sale."
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thomas,
roberto is a Realtor® and eastbaydude has been dealing with Realtors®. If Realtors® cannot act as gatekeepers for information, then what is the value proposition that they offer to the seller?
Nothing?
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Sybrib says
Im sure Satan will find them a new career/job.
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thomas.wong1986 says
I understand the difference.I'm just stating what is happening in REALITY in the status quo.
As for the "offer", the seller wants to know what type of buyer is making the offer. Did you get the point, maybe the seller does NOT want to deal with a FHA loan.
They KNOW there are problems with property and accepting an "offer" from a FHA buyer will be problematic and the transaction WILL not complete. Why deal with getting tied up for 40 days on this. They also want a certain type of transaction. AS-IS. Lenders have their rules and they want to know (as a seller) if they have to deal with those lender rules. This is why they want proof of how the finance buyer is getting financed.
This is where we get to the point of "riff-raffs" A FHA buyer may not consider himself a riff-raff but I do know certain sellers stay clear of any FHA buyers. They don't want to deal with it. Period. I don't want Fannie Mae telling them 40 days into escrow it isn't going to close. Hence, your "verbal offer" holds no weight to a seller.
Now, in response to this:
This is different. As a buyer, wouldn't you want to weasel out of a property if 40K in plumbing repair was not disclosed to you? Yes, this is why there are "Contigencies" Aka. Exit contingencies. There are also contingencies like exiting out a contract if you can't get financed. These are normal contingencies even way before the bubble years. A buyer doesn't want to lose out on their earnest deposit of $2K-10K.
Dealing with a cash flip buyer is different than dealing with a newlywed couple looking to buy their first home financed.
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About transparency. When you make an offer, your REA (well mine) tells all the competing offers and what type of buyers. That is pretty transparent to me when I know if I'm competing w/ cash or FHA.
thomas.wong1986 says
As a buyer, I know I'm qualified. I also know I am competing w/ 3.5% down FHA buyers. I want to stand above the crowd.
Heck, it is to my ADVANTAGE that the sellers know I have the funds hence I have no problem disclosing my last 2 months bank statement and my pre-approval letter.
I know I risk some privacy but I know I have 5 accounts and the seller is only seeing one I specifically set up just for this transaction.
Being anonymous serves no purpose to me because they will eventually know who I am.
I've been told on 2 houses. There were 4 cash buyers, 3 20% conventional, 7-9 FHA Loans.
I know I can't compete w/ cash buyers but I know I have a better chance than those FHA loans.
So it is in my INTEREST to let the sellers know I am 20% conventional from a major bank and not some fly-by-night mortgage broker. I also want them to know I can drop more than 35% down if needed and I can cover closing costs.
My credit worthiness also has a higher chance of getting approved by an alternate lender if something comes up 40 days into transaction.
In my opinion, I am giving the sellers a "well informed" insight on my qualifications.
And fact is. Some sellers, as I've been trying to allude DO NOT want the highest bidder because they don't want to deal with the risk of a failed transaction. I've seen lower or middle offers accepted over higher ones.
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eastbaydude says
Wow! I like to meet you a Vegas Poker Table one day.
Be sure to bring lots of cash!
Its all gonna change... just like we had back before the bubble.
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thomas.wong1986 says
I don't gamble and you still don't understand the market condition as apparent by your comment,
"oh look he has $400,000 credit line, and wants to buy a $300,000 home... plenty of room to play with that!"
That statement and vegas remarks in itself assumes sellers want the highest price they can get.
They want the highest price that is the most solid and sound. The credit line doesn't mean anything if that $300K house will eventually sell at $250K due to the corrections in the market.
Would you take an offer for $325K from a finance buyer or a cash buyer at 260K knowing the house may or may not appraise. Simple question with a simple answer.
Believe or not, the market is slowly correcting. There are less buyers and it is a buyers market. Sellers can't be choosy and that pool is very small.
And in that small pool, they want the most sound and solid offer. As Roberto remarked. About 25% of current tranasctions fail.
Hypothethically using simple #: If you have a total of 10 buyers in a city and 2 houses are sold a month.
If you take the highest offer w/a 50% chance of failing in 3 months, you will only get a pool of 4 buyers the next time around. Those 4 buyers may already be making bids on other property.
As a seller, you just screwed yourself. It is a calculated risk and sellers don't want to gamble.
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Scottsdale, AZ
robertoaribas's website
eastbaydude:
Thomaswrong suffers from engineer syndrome. People smart in one area, who suddenly assume they are smarter than everyone in every area. You have experience trying to buy homes, you know what the market is like, but they prefer to debate you from zero information, and zero knowledge.
The way the REAL market works, everybody looking in the same area likes the same couple of homes. The rest are junk. So, even in a slow market, the same couple of homes get multiple offers. That is reality, but everyone on here claims it is all made up nonsense. Strangely, those of us who watch actual homes in reality, watch them sell, often for over list price. In my opinion, 99% of the time the multiple offers are real.
I just had to back out of a contract to buy a home to live in. 190K 20% down. My loan was problematic due to the large number of homes I own, and the stupidity of underwriting. [they count all expenses of the homes against my ratio, such as tax, insurance, hoa... but none of the rent as income, since I bought them this year and they aren't on my taxes yet... even though I own 4 of them outright] Nevertheless, i surpassed these hurdles, only to have the loan denied due to appraisal: The roof needs replaced. I had an estimate of $11,000 for roof replacement, the seller refused to do it, the lender refused to let me leave the money in escrow to do it immediately after purchase. Impasse, loan denial.
So, I have submitted a new offer of $155k cash, close in 7 days no inspection contingency. [I've already inspected the home] This offer is 30K net lower than the contract I just cancelled, we'll see what happens next week.
Fixed up, this home would currently have a value of 240K give or take, so either deal would have worked fine for me.
[and for those that compare rent to buy, this home would rent for $1800 a month. My original offers mortgage came out to $1050 a month with everything]
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robertoaribas says
The market is going back to the sane practices when I first bought.
robertoaribas says
Sorry Robert, Im not an Engineer. Controller Accounting/Finance for a SV software company. 30 years in the biz after a my Auditor days at Aurther Young (big8, now Ernst & Young). CPA active.
Contracts, Financing, Funding, IPO-s1, SEC regs, etc etc done it all.
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robertoaribas says
You speak for every deal out there.. your a brave one. I will remind you of that when the time comes and It will come one day. BOOKMARK!
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People smart in one area (Phoenix), who suddenly assume they are smarter than everyone in every area (Bay Area, etc.).
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robertoaribas says
Another used house salesman that's a cheerleader for the real estate cartel. Just like I said on a post a few days ago, he's like all the other used house sales people that are always bragging about that big deal he's made, making or about to make, except his conquests are in the desert outpost that they call Phoenix.
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Scottsdale, AZ
robertoaribas's website
Sybrib says
sybib: a person who isn't smart in ANY area, but keeps blabbing away anyways. lurking says
Lurking: I sold my properties in 2005 and 2006.. pocketed half a million, and am now buying tons of properties with the profits. Incidentally, in your eyes I might be a used home salesman, since I am licensed, but I'm actually a college math professor. Went a crappy school in the blessed bay area named Berkeley for my graduate work study in math applied to economics...
so I know, a housing bubble blog shouldn't have posts by someone who is making a fortune from both sides of the bubble. It should just have inane ramblings by paranoid idiots, we need to keep real information a buyer might want off of here!
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Professor,
You've pointed out (boasted?) to us about how you've profited from acting on your command of the facts in Phoenix so you could do your international jetset leisure travel all over the world.
You've bashed here (blabbed?) on how the Bay Area is not so great.
Why are you so obsessed with boasting and bashing about the Bay Area when you're doing so well in Phoenix?
Great ! Awesome ! Go Phoenix ! I visited there in an October and again in a March (Tucson). I agree, it is awesome! Three cheers for Arizona! I'm sure your doing great there!
Congratulations, Professor.
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Los Angeles, CA
What we are seeing is a true meritocracy in action.
Money has passed from no money haveing idiots (bubble buyers) to smart hard working people (roberto) who is now using the $ he made selling at peak to supply rental housing to those who need it.
He gets bashed by the jealous. Its an ego defense mechanism to bash those more successful, smarter than we are. Its a cynical poverty mindset.
I used to bash Real Estate Agents - (enginner syndrome for sure!) anyway I did what Roberto did - I got a RE license, joined the cartel (how hard could it be right?). And I was successful. I know now its HARD WORK to sell a home to someone - nine people will waste your time for every sale - thus you MUST get 3-6% per deal or its pointless. I respect agents now.
People who bash real estate agents do not have any drive, ambition, or ability to pass an easy government exam. You can pass the exam with 2 weekends of study. How long have some of you been complaining here about real estate agents?
I challenge every complainer here (and Patrick K who I respect) to get a license and sell homes for a 6 months to better his understanding of capitalism and sales. Most people CLEARLY need to use an agent to buy - look at all the stupid questions asked here. (how to make anonymous offer! lol! newb for sure - that guy needs hand holding and advice of an agent - no joke).