Rebuttal to Patrick


By Honest Abe   Follow   Wed, 24 Aug 2011, 9:59am   2,550 views   51 comments
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"Republicans prevent small business formation" by Patrick. Hahaha, you're kidding right? You can't be serious.

Patrick, you live in California don't you? In California there is a constant barrage of Senate and Assembly bills which prevent small business formation, impede job creation, have barriers to affordable housing and contain higher consumer costs, unnecessary regulatory burdens, costly workplace mandates, higher taxes, increased employer liability, increased health care costs and an increase in unfair, burdensome and costly litigation - virtually ALL sponsored by liberal Democrats. Patrick, apparently you are uneducated or ignorant of the facts.

Of the most recent job killing bills, seven are costly workplace mandates, 10 are economic development barriers, three are employee benefit mandates, four are new, expensive regulatory burdens and five contain inflated liability risks - again ALL sponsored by Democrats. Patrick, I think you are in denial of reality.

I'll close with a quote from the San Francisco Examiner: "Democratic legislators in Sacramento have sponsored so many anti-business bills in the current legislative session that they must not be aware that California's unemployment rate is a dreadful 11.8 percent." August 3, 2011.

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  1. leo707


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    12   11:59am Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Thanks for addressing Patrick's argument.

    Honest Abe says

    Force is the opposite of Freedom.

    Hmm... not really I think that suppression or servitude are better antonyms for freedom. Force can be applied to achieve servitude and suppression of the masses, but it can also be used to protect the freedoms of the masses.

    Total freedom = anarchy
    Total suppression = tyranny

    We don't have to choose one or the other, there is a very large gray scale between the extremes.

    Honest Abe says

    Your opinion may be that its voluntary, no one is actually FORCED, you know, kinda like how everyone "voluntarily" pays their income tax, no one is forced (wink, wink).

    Make no mistake everyone is forced to pay taxes. As a result we are "forced" to have police, fire, roads, clean water, etc.

    Honest Abe says

    Blocking a national health insurance "option" is preventing the unconstitutional spread of tyranny.

    I think we disagree on where national health care falls in the spectrum between anarchy and tyranny. That said, while I do support universal health care I am not a fan of the current proposal, or "Obama care" as people like to call it.

    Honest Abe says

    And Patrick makes the phony association that in doing so it blocks small business formation, what a joke.

    Other than a dubious analogy, how is Patrick's association phony? what points of his are incorrect and why?

  2. HousingWatcher


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    13   12:40pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    When Abe started his psot about bills in California hurting busineses, I was certain he was going to list some. When I did not see any, I re-read his rant a 2nd time. Still nothing.

  3. MattBayArea


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    14   1:05pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Hmm, seems that at least one organization devoted (ostensibly) to furthering the interests of small businesses would likely disagree:
    http://www.smallbusinesscalifornia.org/legislation.htm

    Read the list - the vast majority of the bills they support are from democrats. I counted a mere 3 from republicans, in that long list.

  4. MattBayArea


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    15   1:09pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    He had exact numbers in his OP. Almost like he went through some list and counted them. Where is this list? If you had it open recently it should be trivial to post it or describe how you found the information. If you cannot do this, expect to be dismissed as the troll you surely are (judging by your prior posts, 17 of which were outright lies, 10 of which were possibly honest misunderstandings on your part, or perhaps well crafted lies, and 2 of which were off topic - despite you picking the topic by starting the post. The remaining 4, when read backwards, seemed to be some sort of devil worship).

  5. MattBayArea


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    16   1:10pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Honest Abe says

    Force is the opposite of Freedom. Freedom means people can choose to purchase something, or not.

    I chose not to purchase an army to invade Iraq and Afganistan. FYI. Thanks, republicans, for 8 years of tyranny!

  6. leo707


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    17   1:12pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Matt.BayArea says

    Read the list - the vast majority of the bills they support are from democrats. I counted a mere 3 from republicans, in that long list.

    How novel some data, and a link to the data!

  7. MattBayArea


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    18   1:13pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Also FYI: health insurance costs are costing my family's small business far too much in time and effort. It's costly too, but health insurance won't be cheap ....
    (until we use regulation or competition from an ethical company or organization of people *cough govt* to prevent the fatcats from getting rich off providing (or rather declining) health care to paying customers.)

  8. leo707


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    19   1:17pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Matt.BayArea says

    He had exact numbers in his OP. Almost like he went through some list and counted them. Where is this list? If you had it open recently it should be trivial to post it or describe how you found the information.

    Hmm... now why would someone, while trying to argue a point, make viewing the sources of said argument difficult.

    Hmmm... I wonder...

  9. iwog


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    20   1:46pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Still waiting for something to talk about Abe.

    Could you possibly name the single bill you're the most pissed about?

  10. Dan8267


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    21   2:14pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Honest Abe says

    Patrick, apparently you are uneducated or ignorant of the facts.

    Proof by intimidation is the weakest form of debate.

  11. Dan8267


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    22   2:23pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Republicans argue that all regulations are bad. Democrats argue that the regulations are necessary. The truth is that each regulation must be evaluated individually.

    A regulation might be bad for a business. It might hurt some businesses but help others. It might hurt the individual business, but help all businesses in the field by avoiding situations like The Tragedy of the Commons. A business could be better off with the regulation applying to all businesses including itself even though the regulation imposes a cost on the business.

    I have never heard anyone put forth a scientific analysis of how regulations affect businesses and economies both in positive and negative ways. Till such an analysis is done, everything said about regulations is largely b.s.

    I will say that there are some ways that companies love the government to interfere in markets and abandon "laissez faire". Companies love patents and copyrights, which are certainly forms of regulation. Many economists have been recently proposing that our patent system does more harm than good, and they site examples like Google buying out Motorola for its patents as an example. Patents, they say, have become weapons.

    So it seems that regulations are like drugs. Some are considered great and other are treated like the bane of society, and it's often arbitrary on which side a particular one falls.

  12. Honest Abe


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    23   2:35pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (3)  

    OK, since I was able to find them all, and you were incapable of finding any, here is one of many: AB 350.

    Assembly Bill 350 says that any time a service provider gets a new contract, they will be FORCED (darn, there's that pesky word again, almost always associated with some screwy liberal Democratic proposal), they would be forced to hire the prior contractors employees. Say what ?

    Liberal Democrats = nosey, pushy, busy bodies, forcing business owners to do what THEY want. Liberals have no comprehension of cause and effect. In other words they operate in a vacuum completely unaware of the unintended consequences they are creating. Then, of course, its the tea party's fault, or Bush's fault , or Reagan's fault - never as a result of the destructive policies and laws which Liberal Democrats themselves created and FORCED upon others.

  13. Honest Abe


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    24   3:26pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)  

    Honest Abe says

    OK, since I was able to find them all, and you were incapable of finding any, here is one of many: AB 350.


    Assembly Bill 350 says that any time a service provider gets a new contract, they will be FORCED (darn, there's that pesky word again, almost always associated with some screwy liberal Democratic proposal), they would be forced to hire the prior contractors employees. Say what ?


    Liberal Democrats = nosey, pushy, busy bodies, forcing business owners to do what THEY want. Liberals have no comprehension of cause and effect. In other words they operate in a vacuum completely unaware of the unintended consequences they are creating. Then, of course, its the tea party's fault, or Bush's fault , or Reagan's fault - never as a result of the destructive policies and laws which Liberal Democrats themselves created and FORCED upon others.

    And there you have it.

  14. iwog


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    25   3:45pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Honest Abe says

    Assembly Bill 350 says that any time a service provider gets a new contract, they will be FORCED (darn, there's that pesky word again, almost always associated with some screwy liberal Democratic proposal), they would be forced to hire the prior contractors employees. Say what ?

    See, that wasn't so hard!!!! All you had to do is copy and paste.

    I think it's a dumb bill and my guess is that it will either fail in the house or be vetoed. (by a Democrat) It only applies to business with an excess of 25 employees. Did you have this level of outrage when Tennessee wanted to outlaw vibrators?

  15. leo707


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    26   3:46pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (2)  

    Legislation by Democrats supported by California Small Businesses (total 24):
    AB 10, AB 11, AB 15, AB 29, AB 150, AB 153, AB 155, AB 211, AB 231, AB 232, AB 335, AB 361, AB 1379, AB 67, SB 116, SB 366, SB 469, SB 560, SB 688, SB 823, SB 826, SB 863, SB 875 & SB 888

    By Republicans (total 3):
    AB 535, AB 541 & AB 135

    Yes, I beginning to understand how you think that the Democrats are out to destroy business in California and the Republicans are here to save it.
    Honest Abe says

    And there you have it.

  16. leo707


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    27   3:57pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    iwog says

    I think it's a dumb bill and my guess is that it will either fail in the house or be vetoed. (by a Democrat) It only applies to business with an excess of 25 employees. Did you have this level of outrage when Tennessee wanted to outlaw vibrators?

    Yeah, it does look like a pretty dumb bill. For anyone who is interested in wasting time you can read it here:
    http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/11-12/bill/asm/ab_0301-0350/ab_350_bill_20110815_amended_sen_v96.html

    There is the 25 employee exemption, and some other exemptions as well.

    Also, the word "FORCED" is never used in the bill. The new contractor can still fire people with cause in the 60 day "transition employment period", and after 60 days everyone goes to at will employment.

    If this is the big example of how Democrats are screwing business, it is a pretty sad sack example.

  17. leo707


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    28   4:07pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Honest Abe says

    OK, since I was able to find them all, and you were incapable of finding any, here is one of many: AB 350.

    So remind me again how this bill has anything at all to do with the Republicans efforts to screw over small business by trying to prevent national health care?

    Also more specifically, what in this bill demonstrates that Patrick's association of health care to republicans being bad for small business is phony, and that his points are incorrect?

  18. Dan8267


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    29   4:35pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Takaful Keluarga says

    I was wondering if you knew where I could get a captcha plugin for my comment form?

    Recaptcha

  19. HousingWatcher


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    30   5:23pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    The Displaced Janitor Opportunity Act (AB 350) is the best bill you can point to Honest Abe? Really? I'm cracking up.

  20. corntrollio


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    31   6:02pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    HousingWatcher says

    The Displaced Janitor Opportunity Act (AB 350) is the best bill you can point to Honest Abe? Really? I'm cracking up.

    Agreed. This is the best example you could find? Let's also remember that bills are not law.

    Honest Abe says

    Of the most recent job killing bills, seven are costly workplace mandates, 10 are economic development barriers, three are employee benefit mandates, four are new, expensive regulatory burdens and five contain inflated liability risks - again ALL sponsored by Democrats. Patrick, I think you are in denial of reality.

    Again, name them. If you are so certain about these numbers, name them right now.

  21. Nomograph


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    32   9:44pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Honest Abe says

    Force is the opposite of Freedom. Freedom means people can choose to purchase something, or not. The liberal agenda of "national health care" is to be FORCED upon everyone.

    The great thing about dogma is that is can be tailored to fit anything, and it sounds just as neat-o:

    "Force is the opposite of Freedom. Freedom means people can choose to follow something,or not. The conservative agenda of "the U.S. Constitution" is FORCED upon everyone."

    Why isn't FORCING the U.S. Constitution on everyone not tyranny, Abe? According to you, it's WORSE than tyranny; the U.S. Constitution is GENERATIONAL TYRANNY!

  22. American in Japan


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    33   9:47pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    I think Honest Abe has been "cratered" in this argument.

  23. leo707


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    34   9:51pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Nomograph says

    "Force is the opposite of Freedom. Freedom means people can choose to follow something,or not. The conservative agenda of "the U.S. Constitution" is FORCED upon everyone."

    Why isn't FORCING the U.S. Constitution on everyone not tyranny, Abe? According to you, it's WORSE than tyranny; the U.S. Constitution is GENERATIONAL TYRANNY!

    Aren't we also fighting two wars right now forcing freedom on people?

  24. leo707


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    35   9:54pm Wed 24 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    American in Japan says

    I think Honest Abe has been "cratered" in this argument.

    The funny thing is that he is probably thinking the exact opposite.

  25. Paralithodes


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    36   4:55am Thu 25 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)  

    Dan8267 says

    Republicans argue that all regulations are bad.

    Republicans make no such argument.

  26. leo707


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    37   8:01am Thu 25 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Paralithodes says

    Dan8267 says

    Republicans argue that all regulations are bad.

    Republicans make no such argument.

    Yeah, there are plenty of things that Republicans want to regulate.

  27. elliemae


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    38   8:10am Thu 25 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike   Protected  

    iwog says

    Could you possibly name the single bill you're the most pissed about?

    That would be a duck bill that quacks about facts, rants, and bs.

  28. HousingWatcher


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    39   9:28am Thu 25 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    iwog says

    Still waiting for something to talk about Abe.


    Could you possibly name the single bill you're the most pissed about?

    He did. The bill that keeps him up at night and scares him the most is the Displaced Janitor Opportunity Act. I'm not joking.

  29. Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq


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    40   12:50pm Thu 25 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike  

    I prefer to be attended by elderly janitors. The older ones move slowly but weather constant beratings better. Just be sure to keep a few spares around so when one gives up the ghost, you can quickly dispatch another to dispose of the carcass.

  30. Dan8267


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    41   5:42pm Thu 25 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    Paralithodes says

    Dan8267 says

    Republicans argue that all regulations are bad.

    Republicans make no such argument.

    Then I must have been misinformed by millions of hours of Fox news.

  31. HousingWatcher


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    42   5:45pm Thu 25 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    The only regulations that Republicans support are those that tell women what they can and can't do with their bodies.

  32. leo707


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    43   9:14pm Thu 25 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Dan8267 says

    Then I must have been misinformed by millions of hours of Fox news.

    You, and everyone else watching FOX "news".

  33. iwog


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    44   8:03am Fri 26 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   Protected  

    Paralithodes says

    Republicans make no such argument.

    Republicans argue that most regulations are bad and generally throw in a comment such as "government is the problem not the solution" or"drown the government in a bathtub".

    When people make the argument that Democrats are at fault, such as claiming Clinton was a deregulator too, they are often hiding the fact that Republicans were 100% gung ho fanatical about forcing the bill through congress while the Democrats were just seeking compromise.

  34. Dan8267


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    45   8:59am Fri 26 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    leoj707 says

    Dan8267 says

    Then I must have been misinformed by millions of hours of Fox news.

    You, and everyone else watching FOX "news".

    In my defense, I get most of my Fox news from The Daily Show ripping on it. Although, I will watch Peter Schiff when he's a guest. He keeps a list of videos with his appearances on his website.

  35. bdrasin


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    46   9:52am Fri 26 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    iwog says

    Republicans argue that most regulations are bad and generally throw in a comment such as "government is the problem not the solution" or"drown the government in a bathtub".

    You are so right. Somehow Reagan's famous quote "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem" became "In each and every conceivable situation for all time, no government action can ever be the solution to any problem whatsoever".

  36. marcus


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    iwog says

    Republicans argue that most regulations are bad and generally throw in a comment such as "government is the problem not the solution" or"drown the government in a bathtub".

    Examples of discussions around this in. Two that I could find.

    http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/taxonomy/term/11134,1590,219

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEo1niUfx_w

    But I have seen republicans trying to say regulations are the problem often. Really republicans are aware of the magnitude of our problems, and their biggest concern by far is that Obama can not be successful addressing them, because that could lead to a new era of democrat controlled federal government.

    They would rather continue taking the pain of the depression than to see Obama succeed. Besides, for many of the most powerful republicans, the depression isn't hurting them personally.

  37. pkowen


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    48   1:40pm Fri 26 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    HousingWatcher says

    The Displaced Janitor Opportunity Act (AB 350) is the best bill you can point to Honest Abe? Really? I'm cracking up.

    Somebody got served.

  38. elliemae


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    49   2:06pm Fri 26 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    pkowen says

    HousingWatcher says



    The Displaced Janitor Opportunity Act (AB 350) is the best bill you can point to Honest Abe? Really? I'm cracking up.


    Somebody got served.

    Not only served, but the area will be professionally cleaned.

    Let's take a look at the Displaced Janiotr Opportunity Act, shall we?

    It applies to janitorial companies that employ 25 or more janitors. Senate Bill (SB) 20 requires janitorial contractors and subcontractors that secure a new building service contract to continue employing the janitors of the former contractor or subcontractor for at least 60 days. At the end of the 60 days, the new contractor is required to provide a written evaluation of each janitor's job performance and to continue employing janitors whose performance has been satisfactory.

    I can see how this would be a small business killer. I imagine that, before this bill, a company could underbid a current contractor and hire all new workers at minimum wage when they're awarded the contract. Or, they could "sell" (transfer ownership) and do the same thing.

    How sad it is that a new company would have to continue to pay workers a living wage. It's more important to protect the company than the workers, because the owners' lives are worth more than the workers.

    Much like the lawsuit that a woman filed against McDonald's, this issue is misunderstood and used as an example of dumb legislation. But, like the woman who received severe burns requiring surgical intervention even tho McDonald's was repeatedly warned that the coffee was too hot to hold in the cup which led to her dropping the coffee in her lap, there's more to this story. It protects people whose jobs were satisfactory, yet lost anyway because someone wanted to save a buck.

    But then abeabe & shrek and their buddies would bitch that these workers were drawing unemployment benefits, food stamps, welfare, or whatever program... Damn janitors ought to go get a fucking job.

    Oh, that's right - they have one because there's a law protecting them.

  39. Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq


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    50   2:32pm Fri 26 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Listen canine breath, the purpose of workers is to work. The purpose of a boss is to collect all the money and boss around the workers. The purpose of the owner is to take nearly all the money from the boss and live a privileged life free from mortal concerns.

    You Chartists can pass your stupid laws and rules, and people like me will: ignore them, buy some politicians to change it, or have one of our blackmailed attorneys find a loophole to exploit. In the end, you just waste a bunch of time that you could be using instead to learn how to make a proper gin martini.

    Now that would be innovation, teaching my dog to make a proper gin martini.

  40. elliemae


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    51   3:45pm Fri 26 Aug 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq says

    Listen canine breath

    Okay, I'll give you that one...

    Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq says

    the purpose of workers is to work.

    This bill allows workers to work. Even land barons such as yourself, who surely wipes his ass with $100 dollar bills, can understand this. I'm thinking that you're in the "owner" category here, and therefore can't compehend that a priveledged life free of mortal concerns is beyond these workers... so here's an explanation you might understand:

    The guy who keeps your lucious gardens perfect probably has a couple of children - if you don't pay him enough, he won't be able to bring the children to work with him under the guise of spending time with daddy. They won't be able to "help" by pullling weeds or spreading fertilizer (probably causing them to be infertile 'cause you are above the laws of the EPA). This translates into higher expenses for you because you'll have to hire an adult rather than to rely upon the free labor of the little children who just wanted some family time. If you charge them for ice cream, you can also make a few extra dollars you can use to line the insides of your kitty litter box.

    Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq says

    In the end, you just waste a bunch of time that you could be using instead to learn how to make a proper gin martini.

    I can make a proper gin martini, the problem is carrying it to you. Everytime I grab the glass like a bone, the drink pours out. Perhaps you could get your blackmailed attorneys to file a patent on a martini glass with a lid.

    Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq says

    Now that would be innovation, teaching my dog to make a proper gin martini.

    Your prissy dogs are stupid. I can herd goats, cattle, and unsuspecting small children.

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