patrick.net

I spent some time recently back in a small town in Georgia very much like where I grew up. I wouldn't say people have gotten any stupider, most of them are the same then as now.

I would say forums like this one give you a false impression, as birds of a particular feather get to flock together in ways that were impossible in the 1970's.

Vicente says

I would say forums like this one give you a false impression, as birds of a particular feather get to flock together in ways that were impossible in the 1970's.

I beg to differ. It was back in the 70's that birds of many different feathers got together in all sorts of funky ways... like when the eagle flied with the dove...

.

Just trying to cover my bases - I Think our readership is more diverse than we realize - not all choose to espouse their politics as it pertains to anything other than housing and economics.

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

I don't want this thread to become political if it can be helped.

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

Just trying to cover my bases - I Think our readership is more diverse than we realize - not all choose to espouse their politics as it pertains to anything other than housing and economics.

Yeah, I agree that the readership is probably pretty diverse. I don't know if it is a good "cross section" of America though.

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

The readership (or at least the contributors - many may lurk) here seems to be "more informed" than the "average american".

People tend to come here looking for answers to questions about housing, and people who search for answers are probably "more informed" as you say.

DeEastCoastBubbleBoy says

the "average" American is getting stupider

I have worked a wide range of professions and even frequently been asked, "I bet you meet ALL types of people". CEOs to the Homeless, Blue Collar, Engineers etc. There is no such thing as "ALL TYPES OF PEOPLE". New ideas and personalities are being created by the minute.

Stupid is a just self satisfying defense term. ALL people are intelligent. The "EDUCATED IDIOTS" are the ones that cause the damage. I pray to change your concept of stupid to the "Ignorance is Bliss" concept. Most people are so overwhelmed with LIES, that adoption of the "WHO CARES" mentality becomes an escape. "Girls just wanna have fun" ! Worse than that, they believe some gubmint agency will fix their concerns for them.

PATRICK.net readers have many common interests. My hope in using this site is to organize these mutual interests and show Gubmint that this large group of citizens has access to truth and we intend to change policies for the benefit of ALL American citizens as opposed to all American Corporations.
Do I suffer from delusions of Grandeur ? Or could we soon see "The Patrick Party"? WE TELL THE TRUTH !

TMAC54 says

Stupid is a just self satisfying defense term. ALL people are intelligent. The "EDUCATED IDIOTS" are the ones that cause the damage. I pray to change your concept of stupid to the "Ignorance is Bliss" concept.

I am not sure if I agree or disagree with this. I would say that most people are smart about something, and smart people can act like idiots in many situations. A lot of "intelligence" seems to be situational. I am not a big fan of "intelligence testing", and know quite a few mensa members who do stupid shit on a regular basis. And, yes I do agree that the educated idiots do a huge amount of damage.

On the other hand there really are stupid people who aren't really that good at anything. They never seem to "shine", but they can get by in most situations. These type of people though are a lot less common than people think.

tdeloco says

Also, how would you categorize China? Their system is an unusual marriage of Socialism and Capitalism.

Funny thing is that China is a much better example of a free market than the US or any other western country for that matter. Right now they seem to be two extremes, far left on social issues and far right on business issues.

leoj707 says

I would also put some of the old time moderate conservatives/republicans in the center as well, but they are quickly being marginalized by the far/extreme right.

The biggest loss for GOP is:

Fiscal conservatives / Social liberals

If you can't pass the God & Gays Purity Test in the modern GOP you are nothing but a RINO who is only useful when your vote coincides on every point with Teabagger & Religious Right agenda. Where you depart in any particular, is where they unceremoniously dump you off the truck preferably over a bridge in a bag. Barry Goldwater would be run out of town on a rail by modern GOP for his views on the Religious Right.

Maybe it is education that has changed .... for the value of knowing how to kill, clean, and cook has been replaced with the value of knowing how to write code ... but, should things get ugly, as I happen to see them headed ... the hunter's gun, knife, and spit will be worth more than all of the computers in Silly Valley.

I can work on cars ... but today a computer glitch can render a mechanically perfect car useless... and that renders shade=tree mechanics worthless too.

Tech has a down side.
Academia has a down side. Plus, the pursuit of academia requires a solid social network to do the hunting for the teacher and student, plus no warrior requirements of them either.

It is a tuff issue to ponder.

Judging from this conversation only, patrick readers are self-absorbed poseurs who have a totally unjustified and overrated opinion of themselves. They don't know left from right and waste key-strokes on superficial and unsubstantiated ideas that have the intellectual weight of gnats ..on a diet.

I don't believe that the forums are indicative of "all Americans." I base this on conversations that I have at work with people whose lives center around (un)reality televison and other things.

It seems to me that people who post & lurk here are intelligent, articulate and for the most part open to new ideas. Even those who aren't open to new ideas and are soooooooo polarized as to their beliefs are intelligent, IMHO.

ELOQUENT ELLIE ! HEY ! Maybe a new handle.
Probably not a good idea to call yourself some sort of FECAL FINDER ! Although he could decipher all that from the READERS
Bap33 says

the pursuit of academia requires a solid social network to do the hunting for the teacher and student

I have been joking with friends that we are going to be in a MAD MAX sequel.
Humor; A funny way of being serious ?

If Patrick represents anything of intellect, it is questioning the status quo, or may be, what the establishment presents, proprogandizes and winds around our society - fluffing-up and foofoo'ing - with appropriate tales and melodramas on the the monstrous activities of Wall St., and their fellow-travellers in R.E., Fed/State Bureaucracy ....

The question is posed: Does the Patrick.net readership represent "Americans"? Perhaps the question means to ask, Who reads Patrick.net? - or what effect does Patrick.net have on America?

I feel that many read Patrick.net that are quite like me. During the 2007-08 period, and even somewhat before then, I began a search to find writers who had attempted to warn Americans that a financial disaster was fast approaching. It did not take too long before I had a list, although a rather short list. Patrick.net was on that list. The list has grown, as sites link to other sites and articles. Many of those discovered sources were due to exposure on Patrick.net. Before these sources of information became available, I could only "smell a rat." Now, I know who the rats are, know why they smell, and can avoid them in advance.

My goal is, and remains, to attempt to protect my family and friends from financial disaster. Patrick.net is one of my tools in that quest.

Example: Some time ago, my wife's teaching assistant wanted to purchase a home. She was about to pull the trigger on a nothing-down variable rate mortgage that was being pushed hard by a lending institution. My wife and I caught wind of it, and due to information we learned here, were able to steer her in the proper direction. Today, she is in fine shape. In fact, she learned so much about finance that today she is in the second year of her own business - which is a private education enterprise in a poor section of Houston. In fact business is so good she has had to purchase vans to bus children to her school. Pretty good for a young Black single-parent mom. It all started with learning about her mortgage.

As for me, and whether I am much of an average American, you will have to decide for yourself. I'm a mechanic by trade, fixing helicopters. My wife, who also reads this site, is an elementary school teacher. We're both old enough that retirement is not so far away. My wife is probably on her last year as a public school teacher, not because she has tired of teaching, but rather that the job has become less teaching and more babysitting and government test-taking. She claims she now "teaches" under two hours per school day. Sadly, she isn't kidding; I've seen it.

We both voted for W. Bush and were so disgusted with him that we both voted for Obama. Now we wish there was such a thing as a "no confidence" vote as some parliamentarian government systems have. We both feel, rather know, that the Democrats have sold out nearly as badly as the Republicans. We feel neither political party represents us. I'm more cynical than my wife - she still has some hope. Me, I'm not so sure.

We're very, very concerned for the future when we consider our two daughters and their families. The odds are stacked against them to a degree that is nearly insurmountable. Luckily, all of them are employed. Even so, without specialized training or (very expensive) college degrees, they all make very little. There is no health insurance offered to any of them by their employers. The youngest daughter has had to get state aid for health care of her two-year old. They simply cannot afford the costs. Both families are one or two paychecks from total financial ruin. There is no slack whatsoever for them.

So that's a little peek at one of Patrick.net's readers. As typically American as the next typical American.

No no no. The readership here does not represent average American's. I would like to know the net worth or median income of these folks. I enjoy reading this forum, however, I suspect that most of you are wealthy and not living paycheck to paycheck. I also think that we spend too much time thinking about money and less time about more meaningful things.

Far left, or far right. No one likes to get ripped off.

nrc21122112 says

I would like to know the net worth or median income of these folks.

I am Elmer J. Fudd millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.

Oilwelldoctor says

Far left, or far right. No one likes to get ripped off.

Those who don't spend much time thinking about money usually are those who have money. If you are broke, can't pay your bills and having a difficult time feeding your family, you think a lot about money.

Vicente says

nrc21122112 says

I would like to know the net worth or median income of these folks.

I am Elmer J. Fudd millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.

“Eagles are dandified vultures” - Teddy Roosevelt

Lol

I have been a follower of Patrick.net for several years. Like Patrick, I knew that housing was in a bubble long before the collapse. I sold my house in 2006 and rented for five years until purchasing another house in 2011. Yes, I definitely appreciate Patrick's blog on housing. However, I can't stand some of the political crap that gets dragged into this excellent site. I have a different point of view politically than Patrick and some of the stuff brought in here is very offensive to me. Can't we just stay on topic? Check the socialist agenda at the door.

I think I can clear this up for you:

Our Host: an unreconstructed lefty. Not far left, but solidly left as evidenced by his selection of political editorials that are ALWAYS from the liberal perspective. Nothing wrong with that, but it is revealing.

Most posters: lefties, as evidenced by their agreement with the host's positions and concurrence with the political references. Nothing wrong with that, as I don't come here for political insight, I stop by for the housing market info.

For DelLoco's benefit, here is how I-a conservative libertarian-would characterize our politics:

___________________________

Far left: Would love to nationalize industries, but know that they will never get away with it directly, so instead they slowly erode industry via a few direct takeovers (GM, Chrysler), and hamper others with the NLRB (Boeing, energy), and massive regulation (health care, insurance, energy). Would love to confiscate wealth (Michael Moore) and force a leveling of class, but again, know that they will never get away with it directly. Hence talk of raising taxes on the groups that already pay 80% of taxes, while giving handouts ('tax credits') to the 50% who have no skin in the game of funding the country. Have already banned religion from the public square, have coerced government education in schools. No re-education of adults, yet, although the president has begun collecting information on those who disparage his leadership (AttackWatch.com). No need for government ownership of the press, since the MSM faithfully parrots the Democrat party line--until inevitable liberal policy failure forces them to face reality. A good number of political leaders in this country are far left, albeit still using moderate language that obfuscates their policy choices. This includes the president.

Center: Democrats--a few in number--to the far right of the party's leadership and main body. Libertarians. The Tea Party. Typical Americans that only want rationality to return to government. Want government to spend only what it takes in in revenues. Want to re-balance SS and Medicare so that they will not continue on their current path to bankruptcy. Want to return to policies that were 'mainstream throughout most of American history' but which began to be broken down in the 1930's when the SCOTUS began the end run of the constitution via an absurd re-interpretation of the Interstate Commerce Clause to empower the federal government to do anything it wanted to do. Want government to concentrate its efforts on national defense, and the other enumerated powers covered by Article 1, Section 8 of the US Constitution. Leave the rest to the states or to the people.

Far right: A few Republicans.

Extreme radical far right: A few hundred nuts living in the hinterlands who advocate the overthrow of the US Government by force.

________________________

DelLoco: liberals comprise at most 20% of the population of the country, while conservatives are 60%+. It is very revealing that you see your political perspective as "normal," with nearly everyone else to your right. It's not really your fault: you have received constant reinforcement in the press and among academia, corporatists, and the power elite in this country. You can be excused for coming to believe that your positions are 'moderate.' when the reality of poll after poll shows that America is much different than you. Your disparagement of the Tea Party is particularly revealing. To reach the conclusion you reach requires an active denial of the obvious: there are simply many, many Americans who recognize that we have pushed beyond the limits of government to manage itself reasonably...and that there is not much time now to correct course before we suffer a total collapse of the institutions you love so much. Go to a Tea Party some time and you'll see a bunch of plain-spoken, middle class Americans to are worried about the future of the country.

Why do we talk about such things? Simply because we are day to day inundated with the ridiculous. I ask myself why become part of the frustration of a people that are clearly frustrated. Have absoulutly no reason and nothing else but thought. Thinking is good. However without reason and being reasonable its not good. Thinking without having reason is a monster.

Like attacking a people (Iraq) Iraq was not about to do or going to do anything to anyone. American action against them was completly deviod of reason. See we look for reason in attacking Iraq. But there is none. Because simply we are dealing with an indginous people that have no reason and simply thought.

See a lot of us do have reason. With an indignous people that have only thought and no reason. It simply leads us to reason there was a just cause when there was none. Thought without your reason working properly is no good. So attack, attack. Was Libya being attacked by us proper - sticking our nose in other peoples business. Of course not. Thought say simply provide them with a few examples like oh a woman being raped.

Our (the people who reason it is unreasonble to stick your nose where it does not belong) They think our reason will simply do the rest of work for the thought they only have. Take the woman being raped. That little stupid thought they give the reasonable That they give us to reason with the world with sometimes it works. Iraq didn't thank goodness. The attacking idigneous have no reason. Just though like some big greco thinking mans statue. That leans on his fist. The reasoning part of his brain not functioning of course. Russia, France, Italy, a lot of people simply do not attack and attack on an ongoing basis. So something really screwed. I don't think its my reasoning. Its theirs it simply does not work properly. A frustrated nonreasoning people. Always unhappy. Many times angry and violent. Because they can't reach their reason.

So throw in a few more thoughts even on this subject. So we can get frustrated. Because you people simply can't reason like most of the world can. If you wonder why most of the world dosen't like you as a people. It's because your reason dosen't work properly.

Phaedra says

Center: Democrats--a few in number--to the far right of the party's leadership and main body. Libertarians. The Tea Party. Typical Americans that only want rationality to return to government. Want government to spend only what it takes in in revenues. Want to re-balance SS and Medicare so that they will not continue on their current path to bankruptcy.

Where were you when huge sums of money was being borrowed for off balance sheet wars, and for tax cuts for the rich, and for subsidies to many corporations ?

Now you say that center Tea Baggers want to "re-balance SS and Medicare."

This is my idea of being far right and totally gullible to propaganda that comes from the plutocrats. Maybe TeaParty types would be center, if it weren't for the lies and misinformation they so readily gobble up, because it gets packaged along with patriotism, God, and so called family values.

No, we aren't all that intelligent. Maybe as individuals many of us are. But as a group, we are retarded.

As for Pat net ? It's not that representative. It's skewed a bit toward the center, or center left. Very small number of nut jobs, but a lot of first time comments from right wingers, for whatever reason.

The most interesting politician in the world. Supposedly middle of the political spectrum.

I carry no water for the GOP in general, or Bush in particular, but you really must get a different critique than "where were you when...?"

Our debt--personal, corporate, and governmental--hit 375% of GDP in the run-up to the crash. This was a combined effort of both political parties, individuals, and enterprises over a forty year period that hit critical mass recently. I don't blame Obama or Bush: they simply ended up without chairs when the debt money music stopped playing.

I do believe that both of them responded as could be expected by politicians who are bought and paid for. They both continued policies that led to the failure--and in Obama's case--doubled down on those failed policies.

The bottom line is the bottom line: we spend more than we take in and we cannot possibly expect to raise revenues to balance the budget. The arithmetic simply does not work: we could confiscate 100% of the wealth of all the billionaires in the country (not just the income, but the $1.5 trillion in assets) and we would still only pay for one year's deficit on our current pace. I'm not talking about trickle up or trickle down...it's simply arithmetic. We spend too much because we thought the merry-go-round would never end and that we could predicate our ongoing program spending on the one-time capital gains windfalls that occurred in the 1990's. Wrong, and now we're hosed.

I'm for eliminating ALL tax deductions. 100%. For everybody. I'm for bringing our troops home from places where they are not wanted--and from places who have been freeloading off us for decades (Germany, Japan, Korea, etc.). Does that make me a right-winger?

The left is out of ideas and, ironically, has become the reactionary element in this country. "We can't touch SS!" "We can't touch Medicare!" "We can't touch public schools!" We can't touch public employee benefits!"

It's really kind of humorous, in a pathetic way.

Phaedra!

Thank you for posting - I completely agree with everything you stated.

-Misstrial

Yes, but they just do not know it, as they do not know so many other things that are going on globally and where that leave us Americans in the picture

tatupu70 says

Idea 1: Universal Health Care ala Europe. Saves $$$$
Idea 2: Return tax rates to 1950s. Raises $$$
Idea 3: Campaign finance reform. Takes $$ out of politics
Idea 4: Abandon free trade agreements. Return jobs to US

Idea 1: - Obama did it, so far my insurance costs me a lot more.

Idea 4: - Obama just signed another free trade agreement. I guess you can't call this an idea from the left, when your left is abandoning you.

Idea 3: - you can't claim either side to this. No one other then lobbyists like how this works right now. They have not found a good way to tackle this issue or take money/bribing out of politics.

FortWayne says

Idea 1: - Obama did it, so far my insurance costs me a lot more.
Idea 4: - Obama just signed another free trade agreement. I guess you can't call this an idea from the left, when your left is abandoning you.
Idea 3: - you can't claim either side to this. No one other then lobbyists like how this works right now. They have not found a good way to tackle this issue or take money/bribing out of politics.

1. You've got to be kidding me. The health care bill that passed is not universal health care ala Europe or Canada. And your insurance costs you more because of capitalism, not Obamacare.

2. The left isn't abandoning me, Obama is abandoning the left.

3. Really? Which party kills all campaign finance reform? I'll give you a hint--it's the same party that thinks corporations are people.

tatupu70 says

The health care bill that passed is not universal health care ala Europe or Canada. And your insurance costs you more because of capitalism, not Obamacare.

Per capita health expense (2007)

US: $7500
Norway: $5000
Canada: $4000
Sweden: $3500

http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/OECD042111.cfm

If you ask our Reaganite friend if we should have Swedish-style health insurance, he'll say no of course.

Because he is an ideologic idiot.

PD Quig,

Excellent post.

The USA has the most expensive health care for several reasons:

1. We pay for all the non-recurring development costs of drugs and new technologies on which the rest of the world then piggybacks. They sell our drugs at a cost less than what will cover the non-recurring engineering and threaten to ignore our patents if companies try to raise prices.

2. We have befouled our system with regulations and government-imposed mandated requirements. Why should I have to pay for a policy that must include sex change operations, etc.?

3. We do not allow insurance companies to sell insurance across state lines. Why not? What harm could possibly result from creating a national market for a smorgasbord of options?

4. We have the most predatory legal system in the world that drives doctors to prescribe unnecessary treatment in order to defend themselves against malpractice lawsuits. Cap "pain and suffering" awards, and pricks like John Edwards will have to get a productive job.

5. Enhance fraud detection algorithms to find those scamming the system. Tens of billions of Medicare payments are to illegitimate scams.

Even as you tout them as a solution for us, these systems in Europe and elsewhere are already coming apart at the seams. Interminable waiting periods for treatments that result in higher death rates for most diseases. And that's all BEFORE the USA stops subsidizing their drug and technology development--and for that matter, their national defense. When the time comes that the US no longer carries the full costs of new treatments, Europe's systems will collapse. When the time comes that the US no longer pays for most of their national defense, they will have less money to spend on their welfare state social programs.

It's going to get very ugly for Europe before it gets better. Unfortunately, due to short-term and small ball thinking in the US, it's going to get a lot worse for us too.

Phaedra says

The USA has the most expensive health care for several reasons:

First off, the first bullet you outlined should be why our medical cost should be lowest in the world. It's our tax dollars doing most of the R&D then big Pharm gets to patent it and take it to market as well as set the cost. They can invent any reason they want.
Even if the excuse defies all logic.

I'd like to see their profit sheets, I bet they make out better than Oil companies do, that in face of high Oil prices, and wavering demand, are posting record profits. They bitch about the costs of production to. Even though the outcome defies their claims.

Was the premise legitimate taxation?

I think "legitimate taxation" has been covered througly. The IRS can do nothing but send nasty letters. Of course there are the rouge IRS players. The former agents that have to pay company dues. They can really seize nothing. I have seen a couple of "thug cops" trying to get in on it. Not to mention those mysterous flyers that show up when you don't pay advertising IRS atty help. Oh the blaspheme of it. The really hysterical thing is the IRS hires attys offices to help collect. If they ever show up just laugh and close the door.

I've ignored the IRS for 25 years. They have figured I guess why not save on the cost of a stamp and paper. I'm still in the same location for the most part. Just like once again a bill collector will never take you to court because that would test usury. Same deal with the 25 or so percent the IRS charges. If you want to pay that organization in Maryland be my guest. It's mostly put together out of there and like any federal law. They have to have a cop with them. Just don't go to federal court cause well it's another state with no jurisdiction ignore it.

Phaedra says

We pay for all the non-recurring development costs of drugs and new technologies

This is just right-wing apologist bullshit. R&D is a minor cost vs. SG&A and shareholder profits.

Pfizer, MRQ:

Gross revenue: $17B
COGS: $4B
SG&A: $5B
R&D: $2B
Income Tax: $1B
Shareholder income: $2.6B

Why should I have to pay for a policy that must include sex change operations, etc.?

SRS is around 500 operations per year. Going with 1000 @ $100,000 per, that's $0.32 out of the $7500+ per capita we pay for health care.

Please try harder, your bullshit here is really weak.
SRS is not mandated, btw.

We do not allow insurance companies to sell insurance across state lines. Why not?

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/02/selling_insurance_across_state.html

Cap "pain and suffering" awards

“If you were to list the top five or ten things that you could do to bring down health care costs that would not be on the list,” said Michelle Mello, a professor of Law and Public Health at Harvard.

http://washingtonindependent.com/55535/tort-reform-unlikely-to-cut-health-care-costs

and for that matter, their national defense.

LOL. The $800B/yr+ the DOD's spending every year isn't for defense, sunshine.

What national defense investments do eg. Norway or Denmark need to make? Some commerce cutters maybe. This isn't the 19th century when nations went to war at the drop of a hat.

tatupu70 says

1. You've got to be kidding me. The health care bill that passed is not universal health care ala Europe or Canada. And your insurance costs you more because of capitalism, not Obamacare.

2. The left isn't abandoning me, Obama is abandoning the left.

3. Really? Which party kills all campaign finance reform? I'll give you a hint--it's the same party that thinks corporations are people.

1) What should it have been than?

2) He is your left, he is exactly what left voted for and got. Not much of a change he promised though, just mainly changed where hand outs are going. Quite a bit of tax dollars are paying to build up factories and companies for those who lobby with POTUS. The rest of us are paying that bill.

3) CFR was a joke and a gimmick before, it had plenty of loopholes. I don't see either side suggesting a good way to fix it either.

I think informative blogs like this one (and several others) attract a more informed, rational and reasoned readership than you would find in the public at large. Similarly, the JAMA or the "Journal of Theoretical Physics" probably attract an even more knowledgeable readership than this blog.

So, from that standpoint, no, I do not think the readership of this blog represents the "average" American.

I think all the "left" vs. "right" stuff is just a smoke screen for special interests buying politicians of both parties.

Jesse "The Body" Ventura said that politics is a lot like Pro-Wrestling (WWF, etc). It's all an act where the two parties pretend to fight each other and then laugh all the way to the bank after the "fight." We the sheeple think it's real and vote for them to protect us from the evil "other" party...when the whole time they're skrewing everyone over (except the special interests).

I think Jesse was right.

Jesse was full of shit too, actually.

The two sides are really pro-government and anti-government, left and right.

conservatives, most "Independents" like Ventura, and libertarians are in the latter category.

(I consider myself a left-libertarian, so in fact I personally am above all this BS, LOL)