patrick.net

It is the location that counts!

You don't keep 800 million people employed without wasting resources.

At least China is actually being productive, in their stimulus efforts.
They might be fanning the flames and padding crony pockets, but those cronies then have to actually go out and make something constructive. Even if the great value of all of this building effort isn't realized. Until decades after China has out spent its self, and pyramid collapses and the bubble pops. And all the investors that invested on the building all lose their asses as well. Decades from now, future generations will benefit from the efforts, enjoying a standard of living that make the rest of the Western societies seem like Barbarians. They'll have a penthouse luxury suit available for every poor and homeless person.

Their wealth wont be lost, after they wipe away their tears, they'll have cities after cities that will be an asset to the people of China. Losses will be written off, and a new chapter of consumers and growth will happen.

Where as America, much like Japan did, are still performing CPR on the Ecconomic corpse of 2007. A large portion of our economic resources have gone into trying make Frankenstien live. Inverse of Growth and Production, we've been destroying and intentionally letting existing homes fall into ruin, rather than see it sold at Free Market value. Much like China is doing now, but with a huge difference, they are forcing growth presently, current economic conditions be damned.
The money isn't wasted, they can point out any window, to where all of the money has gone.

We'll still be stuck in 2007's shadow, in 2020 with out a penny to show for it.

If China and the US were loans I had out. I would rather have China owing me money.(Philosophical this isn't a national debt rant). I could call the loan on China right now and have ten times the value in assets than America. America would be a total loss, and all of the money I loaned America would have lined CEO pockets and greased Congressmen and Senators palms, I wouldn't get jack shit back.

We got ghost towns here in America too. Agree with previous poster, our cronies have little accountability, should be obvious by now.
China is ahead of it's time, cheaper to build now than later, oh, and they build stuff to last, and ghost or empty homes in China is normal, for the most part, zero maintenance on an empty home in China whereas here, it still takes a pile of money to let a house sit empty.

Condo in China is made of concrete, you buy, you get an empty shell, you decorate, and done, they function as apartments. Here you get a bill of goods.

The difference between American ghost towns and Chinese are as follows:

- Empty cities in america were created when there was actually demand for them. Most are very old. In China, they were created for no real reason and nobody ever lived in them.

- Losses on the development fell on the companies that built them in the US. In China, the government funded it.

That's a huge difference.

everything says

China is ahead of it's time, cheaper to build now than later, oh, and they build stuff to last, and ghost or empty homes in China is normal, for the most part, zero maintenance on an empty home in China whereas here, it still takes a pile of money to let a house sit empty.

Holy shit, China has invented concrete that doesn't crack, plants that don't grow, wood that doesn't decay?

AMAZING!

I assume you've never owned a building?

Their big mistake was hitching up Asian macho pride to an American locomotive. They're making all the same damned mistakes (and feeling proud of themselves too.)
But hey - when the new kid arrives on the block he's got something to prove, I guess.
I'm genuinely surprised they weren't smarter - but just proves they're human like all others.
(Maybe they coulda paid more attention to Scandinavia?)
I mean - that's a sexy model....and we all know that sells, but obviously that one-child policy is making them skittish.
When the bottom falls out (as it will) does this mean they have lots of housing for the jobless and homeless? (Or just fun and profit opportunity wrecking crews?)

Somewhere in some public forum - sits a giant table with the model of what Shanghai will eventually become....(think Manhattan stretching from Atlantic City to Bridgeport.)
Then pause and consider the sheer amount of energy it will take to make all that vertical skyline actually function........
then consider what every traditional Chinatown used to look like........I think they dropped the ball on their own ten-yard line. (while pre-celebrating a touchdown that never happened.)
And that's an awful lot of wasted wealth. (The Tai Tais will not be happy!)
Happy Dragons, y'all.

Yet another Gubmint adopted our belief ,,,, doesn't matter what you pay for real property, it will be worth 20% more next year. "Central Planning" is not a failure, just a bad example.

I'm heard similar things before in Good old United States of America. Where I work at the FAA, they wanted to build a business park to help the FAA develop the NextGen National Airspace system (NAS), which is especially satellite based Navigation and control of Airplane traffic. They claimed it would employee 2,000 well paid employees. Two years later, after millions invested to build the road, electrical, plumbing infrastructure required to support these 2,000 workers, not a single building as been built, not a single lease has been signed. Now they are admitting that the 2,000 employee figure was the maximum number of employees the business park could support, and not based on any need by the FAA for the many employees to actually complete the Nextgen project. Not a single contract has been awarded to any of these companies expecting all this additional work from the FAA. It's a pipe dream, and a waste of millions of tax payer dollars.

These apartments look really nice.
Far better than the $500000 700 sq feet 1 bed room 70-year-old SFH in the bay area.

Well, Brasilia stood practically empty for many a year and Oscar Niemeyer was often ridiculed by architects worldwide as a builder of a ghost town.

Yet, starting from mid 70th it grows very quickly, got fully populated by early 80th and keep growing. Today it is a major metropolitan area in Brazil.

Don't worry. The real estate developers have sold many of these apartments and the city officials have already got paid off with huge gain. They craving out of this large piece of farmland is just a scamp made possible by then Shanghai born mayor as a way to extract money from this big ripe off. I have visited the Zhengzhou East district before the development and afterward. This piece of land, almost bigger than the old district, is situated on the old airport, separated by a big Highway 17 with no walking connection between the old and the new, no subway or other viable public means to easily connect the two. When I saw the design by the Japanese town planner, I already said that it is a dead end. They tried to draw the water from the Yellow River to build a lake as the town center when the Yellow River in that portion is just like a little river with little water. So, the central lake becomes a sewage collection facility. Now, they are building the new bullet train station there to revive the area. The only problem is that those apartments' usable life is just a 10 years span. Afterward, they became a piece of sh#t.

GameOver says

A debt coincidentally almost ALL owed to CHINA.

Again with this lie? Jesus. 5 seconds of Googling will tell you that we don't owe anywhere close to "almost ALL" of our public debt to China.

China isn't even the largest foreign holder of US debt -- Japan is. About 10% of the *public* debt (which is a much smaller figure than the total, but the only real part that we truly have to pay back) is held by China.

I mean...really.

GameOver says

Onsen says

The only problem is that those apartments' usable life is just a 10 years span. Afterward, they became a piece of sh#t.

Interesting. The Chinese are building cities with expiration dates on them.

Thy cup overfloweth ..with bullcrap!

Actually, even a well-built building will start to deteriorate after about 10 years if not maintained. Plant roots will damage foundations, wildlife will go inside, and protective coatings like paint and plaster will fall apart. Unheated pipes will burst in winter, and flood when it thaws.

Anyone who owns property knows this.

Now, if the building is being maintained, it'll have a much longer life, but you can't just leave it empty indefinitely. You either pay out the ass to maintain something that isn't being used, or you let it fall apart.

Thank god for joe-six-pack, investing would be too hard without him.

http://www.emoneydaily.com/heart-of-china-bull-beats-strong/69823103/

I really hope with all my heart, that when America was in Boom times through out the last Century, the Chinese weren't sitting around cursing us, and praying we'll fall flat on our Asses.

There's no way in hell they would have ever copied our Western consumer culture, if that were ever the case. They would still be Red China, and we would have the "Commie" angle to hate them for.

Perhaps that what my Dad meant by the idiom he liked to use often...

"He doesn't stand a Chinaman's chance."

Yeah sure call me racist, I am actually rooting for them. As well as us, but especially them.

You don't want 2 billion people pissed off at America, because they couldn't pay their monthly Cable and Internet bill.

China hasn't copied our consumer culture. That's really the fundamental problem. If they didn't have exports, their entire economy would collapse.

I am in a good mood today – golden cross is indeed golden. The bond market is ready to burst like a stinking pig in a python. It is going to be ugly.
The ones that pulled the race card, don’t get so sensitive, J6Ps exist in every color.
It’s the old saying, “ The public is always wrong.” – contrarian investing is all.
I am colorblind when it comes to investing. China made a few bucks for me, in fact twice in the last decade. So did Brazil and Korea. I love countries and people that help me.
I will plan vacations there before my expiration date.
Russia, not so much – RSX. She burnt me.
A discussion requires two sides to participate. Oh, I forgot, you are always right.

Kevin says

China hasn't copied our consumer culture. That's really the fundamental problem. If they didn't have exports.

The biggest social status in China the middle class can achieve is owning a brown or grey 4 door Buick.
It's kind of hard to be an import country when you're the largest exporter in the world. Are you saying, they have no use for their own products? Don't forget, much of the country side, where Chinese folk live on ancestral land, unchanged for centuries, is all but non existent. You live in an industrialized community, you're going to require all of the trappings that goes with it.

That goes for giving up your first born child for an iPad 2.

China doesn't need to be an importer; it needs to be a consumer of its own goods if it wants long term stability. Importantly, it needs to actually create products of its own rather than being a contract manufacturer for companies doing the real innovation.

You can't keep exporting forever. Eventually the people you're exporting to have no jobs and can't buy stuff from you.

China is the largest exporter, but only the third largest manufacturer (or fourth, depending on how you measure it). The US, Germany, and Japan all consume the vast majority of what they create. This means that, if shit goes bad, they'll be fine.