patrick.net

The verse at Rev 4:11 states that God is worthy to receive honor and praise because he is the creator. Further in your quote it states it was his pleasure to create all things.

So am I understanding your reasoning correctly?

"God created all things; it was his pleasure to do so. Humans do evil things. Thus, God created evil."

An attempt to answer the questions posed will help me see how I should answer. I do not know if I should address you from a theistic POV or a non-theistic POV.

Does God create evil or not?
Scriptures say he does as would befit an omnipotent God.

Do you believe or not?

Regards
DL

Your thoughts are neither original or truthful. Do more research. A lot more research. This is a much more complex subject than 99% of atheists give it credit for being. In my experience, atheists mostly want to just feel good about 1) sexual issues (where, with whom, and how to have sex), 2) the creation story, and 3) explanation for lack of divine interference with the evil perpetrated by other humans (I.e. "If God is real and loving, how could he let the holocaust happen?".

Of these, the first is childish. Sex is natural, and getting hung up on its details says more about the person asking than the subject.

The second is the most interesting, and deserves careful rational thought. If the Jewish myth of creation isn't literally true, as all scientific evidence clearly reveals, does that refute the existence of a deity? Personally I think that is faulty logic.

The third point is also childish, and the result of incomplete thought. My kid hits my other kid who cries and says "why did you let her hit me?" as the parent I could have taken away my children's freedom "for their own protection," and thus avoided any chance of one child abusing the other. But, out of love, I do not.
Similarly, if my son jumps off a wall I told him not to jump off of, and breaks his leg as a result of gravity and poor decision making, is it really my fault?
Thus: don't blame God for bad things that happen. He did take time to dictate out a rather long set of rules that, properly followed, can keep us safe. It's not his fault that we decided to declare them old fashioned and irrelevant, and run around hurting ourselves and those around us.

The last thing atheists like to drone on about is heaven and hell and who goes where. I would suggest that they not worry much about this. We'll all find out when we get there. Live a life you can be proud of, and just trust that your heavenly father approves. No amount of argument or discussion will change anything as immaterial as an afterlife, so leave that to the philosophers and try to be good to your fellow humans.
Peace!

Quigley says

1) sexual issues (where, with whom, and how to have sex)

Christians have plenty of sex, they even get married, even though Paul said only to get married if you absolutely could not control yourself. He also said to chop off your member if necessary, for it is better not to burn in hell.

How many Christians don't get married for Christ? How many chop off their members? Are Paul's teachings "Optional", even though he claimed to have revelations on most of them?

Quigley says

2) the creation story

The Creation Story has many problems. Lights before Suns, for example. If that's untrue, what else is untrue?

Quigley says

The third point is also childish, and the result of incomplete thought. My kid hits my other kid who cries and says "why did you let her hit me?" as the parent I could have taken away my children's freedom "for their own protection," and thus avoided any chance of one child abusing the other. But, out of love, I do not.

This is a silly analogy that does not encapsulate the difference in harm levels. Would you let your child jump into a volcano? Let a toddler handle a boiling pot?

A Parent - or God - standing aside and letting a child burn a finger to teach a lesson is one thing, allowing the massacre of millions (countless times, not just the Holocaust, and often Christians were victims, like the Armenians in Turkey or various Protestants in France or Germany) something else.

Occam's Razor - the easiest, most direct explanation is that there is no God, at least not one that takes a personal interest in individuals or men in general.

Humans often rationalize things they came to believe in for non-rational reasons. Because religions - and Book Religions in particular - are such a part of culture and individual belief - they die hard because of this principle.

Imagine you are God. Momentary suffering and a death of a physical body are no big deal.

Quigley

"Your thoughts are neither original or truthful."

Show the lie or be seen as the liar.

Regards
DL

taxee says

Imagine you are God. Momentary suffering and a death of a physical body are no big deal.

Three days out of immortality is three days of R & R.
A change is better than a rest.

Regards
DL

Fine, the concept of "evil" is just that, a concept. Since a concept is not a thing, then that passage that you've taken grossly out of context does Not infer that "God created evil."
And that's just using logic to directly refute your argument.
An untruth loudly proclaimed is still not true.

Greatest I am says

Do you understand how and why God gains pleasure from creating evil and sin?

I am assuming you are referring to Isa 45:7 which states "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." KJ

In answer to this question, yes, I understand why God creates evil. God creates evil but evil is not the same as wrongdoing or sin. As for the statement that God creates evil, it does not mean anything or any practice that is morally wrong. “Evil” as here used does not mean moral evil, of which God could never be guilty, but it refers to a calamity or disaster or destruction, such as he brings upon his unrepentant foes, and that particularly at the battle of Armageddon. From rebellious Adam’s time onward punishment has come from God upon the willfully wicked, and this has been wholly just on God’s part, but it has been as an evil to the ones meriting it.

However, before deciding that he enjoys creating evil consider 2 Peter 3:9 which states God "does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." NWT

Greatest I am says

If not, why do you think God would create evil and sin for his displeasure?

As mentioned above God creates evil to bring about destruction of his enemies. A key point in understanding the question of evil is to recognize that God did not create a wicked world. He created the first human couple perfect, without sin. God looked upon his creative work and found it to be “very good.” (Genesis 1:26, 31) He created humans with free will and they chose to disobey and sin.

So we can't look at the world as it is now and say God takes pleasure in all the sin and wickedness because he doesn't. The reason why he sent his only begotten son Jesus Christ to earth to die is to cover over the sin and wickedness that humans created.

thunderlips11 says

How many Christians don't get married for Christ? How many chop off their members? Are Paul's teachings "Optional", even though he claimed to have revelations on most of them?

chopping off your member is the best thing you can do to worship Jesus. Wouldn't want any of the laity getting in on the king's wenches. Especially the smart ones, make sure they go to the monastery.

Quigley says

Fine, the concept of "evil" is just that, a concept. Since a concept is not a thing, then that passage that you've taken grossly out of context does Not infer that "God created evil."

And that's just using logic to directly refute your argument.

An untruth loudly proclaimed is still not true.

I see. So "all" does not mean "all". It just means "some".

And you call that logic!
Do better my friend.

Is evil on earth?
Is it a power?

Ephesians 3:8-10
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Does all here also mean just some?

Regards
DL

frankbshouse says

As for the statement that God creates evil, it does not mean anything or any practice that is morally wrong.

Is causing others to lie morally wrong?

Was the destruction of Sodom evil?

Was God having his son murdered needlessly evil?

Was the genocide of Noah's day evil to the innocent children and babies?

God had many moral options for all of those.

Do you find him guilty like these good people do?

http://www.youtube.com/embed/dx7irFN2gdI

Regards
DL

Greatest I am says

Is causing others to lie morally wrong?

Can you please provide an example of what you are referring too?

Greatest I am says

Was the destruction of Sodom evil?

To the inhabitants of Sodom, yes it was evil. Sodom persisted in a course in defiance of God, becoming known for very immoral practices. Genesis 20:20 – Consequently God said: “The cry of complaint about Sodom and Gomorrah, yes, it is loud, and their sin, yes, it is very heavy.”

God therefore sent his angels to destroy Sodom, with the assurance to Abraham that if ten righteous persons could be found in the place, the whole city would be spared.—Genesis 18:22-33. However not even ten righteous people could be found.

The city showed it deserved destruction because a mob of boys and old men surrounded Lot’s house, attempting to rape the angels inside. The next day, after Lot, along with his wife and two daughters, left the city, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by sulfur and fire. (Genesis 19:1-29)

God destroyed Sodom because of its gross wickedness. However, he first removed the righteous from the city and did not destroy indiscriminately.

Greatest I am says

Was God having his son murdered needlessly evil?

Jesus death was not needless. Jesus death was needed in order to provide an opportunity for man to become reconciled to God. Adam was a perfect human who sinned and thus lost perfection and passed on imperfection to his children. According to God’s perfect justice, the only way to rectify this was that a perfect life be given as a ransom. Romans 5 12-19 sums it up well.

God sacrificing his Son was not evil but was an act of great love. God did it because he “loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.” - John 3:16

Greatest I am says

Was the genocide of Noah's day evil to the innocent children and babies?

It was evil to those who were on the receiving end of God's judgement. It is a serious thing for children to obey God as well as adults, because children that do not obey God are treated the same as adults who do not. God will not preserve those who do not follow him because they are children. This is evident from the fact that he did not preserve the young children through the flood of Noah’s day just because they were children. It is also shown in the book of Ezekiel that just because you are young is no reason for God’s keeping you alive.

Ezekiel wrote: “Slay utterly the old man, the young man and the virgin, and little children and women; but come not near any man upon whom is the mark.” (Ezek. 9:6)

This should help parents realize the responsibility they have in their children's salvation.

Greatest I am says

God had many moral options for all of those.

What are some other options you feel would have been better?

Greatest I am says

Do you find him guilty like these good people do?

No I do not find God guilty of any wrongdoing. However, this is a great question you pose. This is a common feeling of many people. They feel God is guilty of wrongdoing because he doesn’t prevent suffering from happening.

Note the following excerpt:

People have gone to their religious leaders and teachers to ask why there is so much suffering. Often, the response is that suffering is God’s will and that he long ago determined everything that would ever happen, including tragic events. Many are told that God’s ways are mysterious or that he brings death upon people—even children—so that he can have them in heaven with him. However, God never causes what is bad. The Bible says: “Far be it from the true God to act wickedly, and the Almighty to act unjustly!”—Job 34:10.

Do you know why people make the mistake of blaming God for all the suffering in the world? In many cases, they blame Almighty God because they think that he is the real ruler of this world. They do not know a simple but important truth that the Bible teaches. The real ruler of this world is Satan the Devil.

The Bible clearly states: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19) When you think about it, does that not make sense? This world reflects the personality of the invisible spirit creature who is “misleading the entire inhabited earth.” (Revelation 12:9) Satan is hateful, deceptive, and cruel. So the world, under his influence, is full of hatred, deceit, and cruelty. That is one reason why there is so much suffering.

A second reason why there is so much suffering is that mankind has been imperfect and sinful ever since the rebellion in the garden of Eden. Sinful humans tend to struggle for dominance, and this results in wars, oppression, and suffering. (Ecclesiastes 4:1; 8:9) A third reason for suffering is “time and unforeseen occurrence.” (Ecclesiastes 9:11) In a world without God as a protective Ruler, people may suffer because they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It is comforting to know that God does not cause suffering. He is not responsible for the wars, the crimes, the oppression, or even the natural disasters that cause people to suffer. Still, we need to know, Why does God allow all this suffering? If he is the Almighty, he has the power to stop it. Why, then, does he hold back? God must have a good reason.—1 John 4:8.

To find out why God allows suffering, we need to think back to the time when suffering began. When Satan led Adam and Eve into disobeying God, an important question was raised. Satan did not call into question God’s power. Even Satan knows that there is no limit to God’s power. Rather, Satan questioned God’s right to rule. By calling God a liar who withholds good from his subjects, Satan charged that God is a bad ruler. (Genesis 3:2-5) Satan implied that mankind would be better off without God’s rulership. This was an attack on God’s sovereignty, his right to rule.

Adam and Eve rebelled against God. In effect, they said: “We do not need God as our Ruler. We can decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong.” How could God settle that issue? How could he teach all intelligent creatures that the rebels were wrong and that his way truly is best? Someone might say that God should simply have destroyed the rebels and made a fresh start. But God had stated his purpose to fill the earth with the offspring of Adam and Eve, and he wanted them to live in an earthly paradise. (Genesis 1:28) God always fulfills his purposes. (Isaiah 55:10, 11) Besides that, getting rid of the rebels in Eden would not have answered the question that had been raised regarding God’s right to rule.

Let us consider an illustration. Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever but rebellious student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. Implying that the teacher is not capable, this rebel insists that he knows a much better way to solve the problem. Some students think that he is right, and they also become rebellious. What should the teacher do? If he throws the rebels out of the class, what will be the effect on the other students? Will they not believe that their fellow student and those who joined him are right? All the other students in the class might lose respect for the teacher, thinking that he is afraid of being proved wrong. But suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem.

God has done something similar to what the teacher does. Remember that the rebels in Eden were not the only ones involved. Millions of angels were watching. (Job 38:7; Daniel 7:10) How God handled the rebellion would greatly affect all those angels and eventually all intelligent creation. So, what has God done? He has allowed Satan to show how he would rule mankind. God has also allowed humans to govern themselves under Satan’s guidance.

The teacher in our illustration knows that the rebel and the students on his side are wrong. But he also knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class. They will understand why the teacher thereafter removes any rebels from the class. Similarly, God knows that all honesthearted humans and angels will benefit from seeing that Satan and his fellow rebels have failed and that humans cannot govern themselves. Like Jeremiah of old, they will learn this vital truth: “I well know, O LORD, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.”—Jeremiah 10:23.

Why, though, has God allowed suffering to go on for so long? And why does he not prevent bad things from happening? Well, consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do. First, he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case. Second, the teacher would not help the rebel to make his case. Similarly, consider two things that God has determined not to do. First, he has not stopped Satan and those who side with him from trying to prove that they are right. Allowing time to pass has thus been necessary. In the thousands of years of human history, mankind has been able to try every form of self-rule, or human government. Mankind has made some advances in science and other fields, but injustice, poverty, crime, and war have grown ever worse. Human rule has now been shown to be a failure.

Second, God has not helped Satan to rule this world. If God were to prevent horrible crimes, for instance, would he not, in effect, be supporting the case of the rebels? Would God not be making people think that perhaps humans can govern themselves without disastrous results? If God were to act in that way, he would become party to a lie. However, “it is impossible for God to lie.”—Hebrews 6:18.

What, though, about all the harm that has been done during the long rebellion against God? We do well to remember that God is almighty. Therefore, he can and will undo the effects of mankind’s suffering. As we have already learned, the ruining of our planet will be undone by the turning of the earth into Paradise.

The effects of sin will be removed through faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, and the effects of death will be reversed by means of the resurrection. God will thus use Jesus “to break up the works of the Devil.” (1 John 3:8) God will bring all of this about at just the right time. We can be glad that he has not acted sooner, for his patience has given us the opportunity to learn the truth and to serve him. (2 Peter 3:9, 10) Meanwhile, God has been actively seeking sincere worshipers and helping them to endure any suffering that may come upon them in this troubled world.
- "What Does the Bible Really Teach?" p. 107 - 113

I realized the excerpt above was slightly changed by me on accident after posting it. I thought I was doing a replace on a couple of my own words but it must have changed the occurance throughout the whole post. Plus it lost the paragraph numbers. Here is a link to the actual book. On pages 107 - 113 it gives the info I posted above in the orignal wording and format.

http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/bh_E.pdf

“Was God having his son murdered needlessly evil?

Jesus death was not needless. Jesus death was needed in order to provide an opportunity for man to become reconciled to God.”

Yet scripture show where God had forgiven men prior to the so called sacrifice.
This is confirmed by your own bible.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/4ott15j2KwQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/embed/YoHP-f-_F9U

It was definitely a needless murder because you will know that God himself set the ransom and he could have set whatever ransom he wanted.

If you had God’s power, who would die, you or your son?
Any human father would step up while your cowardly God had his son do the immoral thing.

---------------------------------

“Is causing others to lie morally wrong?

Can you please provide an example of what you are referring too?”

If you put a lie in someone’s head, and they pass on that lie believing it to be true, are you culpable for those passed on lies or is the one you lied to originally culpable?

----------------------------

“God had many moral options for all of those.

What are some other options you feel would have been better?”

We are talking of God killing millions including innocent children and babies.

If you cannot answer this yourself, we are done here. Remember that God has a pocket full of miracles and can do anything. If you cannot come up with any moral scenario, then you do not have any or are just not interested in thinking and only want to follow and spout dogshit dogma.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am says

Yet scripture show where God had forgiven men prior to the so called sacrifice.
This is confirmed by your own bible.

Can you please enlighten me on this statement? I am not following.

Greatest I am says

It was definitely a needless murder because you will know that God himself set the ransom and he could have set whatever ransom he wanted.

As stated before, Romans 5:12-17 explains that since a perfect man lost perfection it would take a perfect man to regain it. Deuteronomy 32:4 states "The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; Righteous and upright is he." There is no way that an imperfect human could rectify the situation. A perfect man had to remain faithful to God, even to death, in order for God's scale of justice to be perfectly balanced.

Greatest I am says

If you had God’s power, who would die, you or your son?
Any human father would step up while your cowardly God had his son do the immoral thing.

I encourage you to look through my above post again. The issue that Satan raised in the Garden of Eden was God's right to rule. Usually when we discuss Jesus coming to earth and being put to death we talk about the ransom. But that is not the only nor the most important reason why Jesus came to earth. Jesus also came to earth to prove Satan a liar, that a perfect man would be obedient to God, even in the face of death. By his faithfulness down till death, Jesus Christ vindicated God as a wise and loving Creator and a righteous Sovereign. Contrary to Satan’s claims and unlike Adam, Jesus proved that it is possible for a human to remain faithful to God, even under extreme pressures. (Job 2:4,5)
The Devils argument has always been whether God has the right to rule. Jesus wanted to prove that he does.

Do you now understand why God couldn't come himself? How would that settle anything when it came to the claims of the Devil? How could God come to earth and prove faithful to himself?

Greatest I am says

If you put a lie in someone’s head, and they pass on that lie believing it to be true, are you culpable for those passed on lies or is the one you lied to originally culpable?

Again, I need a better explanation of what you are trying to say.

Greatest I am says

We are talking of God killing millions including innocent children and babies.

Noah preached for 40 years about the flood coming. God gave everyone a fair warning but they wanted to continue in their badness. So yes, all people outside of the Ark, who chose not to listen, including babies and children died. God was not immoral in acting this way. Humans had 'filled the earth with badness' and were deserving of death. (Gen 6:5) Actually none of us are born innocent. We are born into sin and deserving of death. (Rom 6:23) It is only by God’s love that we have a way to receive the gift of salvation. In the case of the flood it was the parents stubborn opposition that condemned the children, not God.

Greatest I am says

If you cannot answer this yourself, we are done here.

You have posed questions about why God has acted in certain ways. Why would I try to answer for God when I can show you how he answers for himself from the scriptures?

Sodom being portrayed as homosexual is the evil part not what "God" did to it. The perpetration is on the gay person that bore the brunt of a story thats been changed around. Romans is bullshit. Most of the NT is. You can't change who you are sexually no one can. Sense should tell you the story doesn't make sense to begin with somethings wrong. A town filled with men no women that goes around raping men on what fucking planet? The entire fucking town? Sodom was filled with theives the original story goes. They stole some of Abrahams gold amoung other things. Lot was to look into it. It wasn't taken off of Abrahams person however from where it resided near the town that part of whats being obsured thats why I mention it. They tried to kill Lot and he fled. The result. People who don't want you to know whats what or whats going on change shit around all the time usually for a reason to change what they don't want known. They change the story's around daily in the news. You should know that. Homosexuals was probably the handiest story around at that point and they yucked it up while they wrote it. We want your men No have my daughters. Please who the fuck is going to throw their daugthers out to a fucking crowd to gang bang get a clue.

One more thing they did change. I swear to God I hate these fucking people for changing this stuff around. Dosen't say stone a gay not at all or does it say stone someone for incest. What it does say is That the offender must be cut off from his people. Someone may not like it thats what it says. Simple. Cut off means he or she has to go. Its fucking insane to think that it say stone to death. ADULTRY????? Stone to death get fucking real. Anywhere you try that on the earth. Except in fairyland your going to wind up either in jail or dead more than likely. Things haven't changed. Hebrews aren't permited to marry or go with people outside of their own people. It keeps the race Aryian a people I don't like or pure. Hebrews preserved their culture. Kept it pure otherwise they were not permitted to live in the land as Hebrews and have a share of the land. p>

Let me add this the crime is perpetrating and continuing to perpetrate and engage in lies against gays. These fucking people that wrote that book. The debt merchants that continue to print and distribute that book. Think this is all so funny. People have died over that bullshit that was written. Dosn't bother them like 9/11 dosen't bother them or overunning Afganistan for strip mining purposes. You use this stuff as a cover because you love stealing. When you get a hotel you buy a franchise. Those fucking Gideons don't come in there. You have a warehouse filled with those bibles. You install the furniture and put a bible in every drawer. I see finance. Your not fooling me at all. You love these people struggling otherwise it would be have a nice fucking day. Leave me alone.

The whole point YOU think because these debt merchants are low down evil nasty MF. You need to change your opinion of yourself first. I don't think your evil. That fucking book says you are. Sex dosen't hurt anyone. Except a hooker maybe. Deal is that book has to do with Hebrew culture. So sex thats one thing. Perpetrating henious crime against people that aren't bothering you in the first place thats another way. Because of these bastards people see you as crime. So what do I do. I'd slap the shit out of anyone that tried to pry into my sex life. It's only natural. Its the spark that starts dissension.

Thanks for this people.

Regards
DL

Problem is people don't want to learn. Learning itself is crap and a lot of it. Humor can be creative so can painting or music. So can can acting and fantasy. Some things you can even rationalize or everything. Fact alone verified by several different sources means absoulutly nothing if you impeach the source. Fact CBS ABC NBC nightly news has had the same verification of each others facts and are virtually identical. So hard hitting news is bullshit and so is investigative reporting. This government never fucking delivers and promises or implies you the moon fucking fact. Hey, learn the hard way gambler. Gamble your time and effort just like every other fool that walked in that casino.

You can't change someones sex life. Can't be done. Not how they are you can marry or whatever. Your going to wind up there in one form or another. They wrote a book took out some of the theft and don't we all know they still steal other peoples stuff oil strip mining all kinds of henious shit. Someone didn't like gay people or as an afterthought chucked you in there instead.

I scored a perfect score on my psat's both sides. Everyone fucking looked like they were going to drop dead. The only one that did. I fucking left school after that. I was fucking bored out of my fucking mind. I hated the place and a lot of the pricks I went to school with. Do gay people hate school? Gee lets see. I fucking would. I'm different no doubt. I went back to school to study psycology and sociology. One more year I could be a licenced psychiatrist. I choose to be a property investor instead. The people I know and do business with, whom I love say fuck this system. We don't just live we really fucking live.

I don't have bright fire engine red hair. Although girls I like that in a pageboy by the way. I love alternative counter culture people. I like Hebrews ok to. Hebrews, semites are smart and of really quick comprehension That saves me time because sometimes or most times they are even 3 steps ahead of me. Blacks hey they feel it and well its a just kind of in common thing. They hate us. A lot of you fit in. Thats nice for you. However then again some of you know some really vile fucking hate for no good reason.