patrick.net

I searched for "rent", not found.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CUUR0000SEHA/

there's you're f---ing problem, mate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_and_Poverty

diagnosed in 1879, but soon forgotten.

I do (medical) home visits - it's amazing to me how many people are suffering severe financial problems. It's the norm rather than the exception, and this is different than it was even five years ago.

There is a real problem with poverty these days.

Perhaps we should declare poverty a crime and summarily imprison them.

clambo says

Poor in the USA is a choice.

Not when houses are being sold in batches of 2,500:

http://www.inman.com/news/2012/04/10/california-lawmakers-object-bulk-reo-rental-sales

Not when 3/5 the population has to rent:

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/hvs/qtr212/graph212.html

(and this number is even higher in high-cost areas)

Not when per-capita health-care costs are TWICE the global average:

http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/oecd042111.cfm

Not when gasoline pulls $4000/yr out of the household budget.

Being in the 99% in the US requires one to run a gauntlet of rent-seeking everywhere you turn.

And this is seen especially in the corporate profits figure:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CP

all that is coming out of poor people in the end. Poor people do most of the work in this country, but have so little for it at the end of the month.

Delurking says

Not when per-capita health-care costs are TWICE the global average

This is partly why I support having a universal healthcare system in addition to a private system. I think the existence of a public system is beneficial to a capitalist society.

"The comfort of the rich depends upon an abundant supply of the poor." --Voltaire

To end poverty would end the comfort of the rich. So it ain't gonna happen, no matter how hard the poor work. A few are allowed to escape poverty to give the appearance that they all can, but most of them will be forced to give up most of their earnings as various kinds of rents to the rich forever. It is especially easy to divide and rule the working class in America. Just get them calling each other liberals and conservatives and they will never figure out where all the money went.

There will always be the rich and the poor. Global warming will reverse (i.e. hell will literally freeze over) before the supply of the poor runs out.

But each individual has the potential to move from one class to another.

clambo says

Poverty is not benefitting the rich. Poverty is a choice by people and they are bribed into it by the government here.

First, wealth is relative. So poverty does give relative power to the rich. This is a feature, not a bug, as wealth disparity is NOT in itself a bad thing.

However, poverty is not completely by choice at the individual level. There are random variations in the initial conditions. Also, the collective attitude towards property rights can affect the poverty level of a large group.

Therefore a fair society should do at least two things:

1) enforce the right to private property
2) ensure sufficient level of social mobility

I disagree, Clambo. I also think it's silly to accuse those who disagree with you about the root causes of poverty of feeling that it's not up to them to manage their lives better.

I came very a privileged background and have done well enough in life, but some others I have known along the way never stood a chance. Coming from a poor, unsupportive, uneducated family will hold anyone back - if you had those experiences you too would be poor, unable to read or write effectively, and a financial failure. You may blame the children affected by these conditions for the conditions/choices of their parents, but our society at large benefits from dragging people out of these situations and thrusting them into more productive lifestyles ... even if it costs us some of our tax dollars in the present.

It's tempting to think that we (who are born to good parents, rich or poor, who encouraged us ... who had good teachers along the way ... who were not pressured at a young age to take the wrong path in life by a sub-culture that plans for failure) are somehow special, that our accomplishments are entirely our own and not due large to our circumstances. There are people who succeed despite all odds, and these people seem to validate the conceit of the successful few ... but phrases like 'despite all odds' fit those situations precisely because these outcomes ARE against the odds. Not everyone beats the odds.

divingengineer says

Perhaps we should declare poverty a crime and summarily imprison them.

What do you mean "we should"? That's precisely what "we" do already

When I was Poor I dont ever recall wanting to be Saved. Least not by some high horse riding Liberal. I just wanted a good job, and knew things would turn around... eventually.

Peter P says

But each individual has the potential to move from one class to another.

That is a bit more difficult in the good ole' USA. Even socialist France is ahead of us
http://moneyland.time.com/2012/01/05/the-loss-of-upward-mobility-in-the-u-s/

I am poor (by all USD metrics)

However, life is good. Being income and cash poor isn't all that bad, when its all you've ever known, and your monthly debt carry burden isn't crushing you

I don't envy the people that are stuck working long hours for the man, just to fill their gas tanks for that long commute, so they can pay the bank for all that storage space for landfill junk at their shelter. To each their own

lostand confused says

Peter P says

But each individual has the potential to move from one class to another.

That is a bit more difficult in the good ole' USA. Even socialist France is ahead of us

http://moneyland.time.com/2012/01/05/the-loss-of-upward-mobility-in-the-u-s/

Notice his choice wording. Each individual

Same as each individual that plays the lottery, has a chance at hitting the jackpot. But everyone can't be winners. You need a giant pool of willing suckers to participate, so the skimmers can take their cut and leave almost half for the winners to split up. *benefits the elderly

You can only exercise your choices under the circumstances life deals you. If you are stuck in a country where upward mobility is very difficult to achieve-you can choose all you want , but it is going to be that much more difficult, when compared to one where upward mobility is very easy.

Freedom to choose does not exist in a vacuum. A woman can choose to wear a mini dress and walk the streets in Saudi Arabia-but she will probbaly be flogged or worse. Here she might recieve compliments. Same thing in life-if the deck is stacked against you-as it seems to be increasingly in this country-it is that much harder to climb .

Even people in poverty in the US live like the proverbial kings in other countries. I don't feel sorry for them. If they are too stupid to make something if themselves, it's their fault.

I remember being poor, but I also remember getting a hand up. I got my GED at no cost, and Pell grants made all the difference for me. I got through junior college with about $5K in low-interest student loans, took on more to get my BA, paid them off as soon as I could. I'm one of those American success stories, but I haven't forgotten what it felt like to be broke with little hope.

And what we call the poverty threshold in this country is a joke. A family of four earning $22K a year? That's barely surviving...

I thought none of Larry Page, Sergey Brin, and Mark Zuckerberg were born billionaires. There are many other examples (e.g. Dennis Washington, James Simons, etc).

Remember, there is much randomness in life. Instead of making things deterministic, we may as well exploit randomness.

Can anyone direct me to information about the French Revolution?

HEY YOU says

Can anyone direct me to information about the French Revolution?

Just go watch the latest Batman movie.

Until they can erradicate sloth and laziness from human nature, a certain amount of poverty will ALWAYS exist. Yes, these traits exist across economic levels, and yes, those lazy rich kids will always get a better shot of earning/keeping wealth. However, we have MANY ways of helping those out to get into the middle class (more than ever), and many fall back on the lazy ways of EBT/Section8/Welfare/etc, with no interest whatsoever, of educating or bettering themselves. And that is a fact.

lostand confused says

Freedom to choose does not exist in a vacuum. A woman can choose to wear a mini dress and walk the streets in Saudi Arabia-but she will probbaly be flogged or worse. Here she might recieve compliments. Same thing in life-if the deck is stacked against you-as it seems to be increasingly in this country-it is that much harder to climb .

How do you Guys explain, Haitians that come to this country barefoot, and own a fleet of Taxis and a few A.M. Radio station with in a decade?
The likes of Manny and Jean Cherubin
(http://www.wavs1170.com/)of which I have had the pleasure of writing the CLEC software for them when they were in the Home telephone prepaid business as well.

Try telling those bothers that the Cards are stacked against them. I think they are too busy winning with the hand they were dealt to take that load of crap seriously.

Delurking says

Not when gasoline pulls $4000/yr out of the household budget.

Delurk, I agree with the other items you posted but not this one. Driving an inefficient car is a poor personal choice. People may have been snowed by the relentless marketing of SUVs as Freedom Vehicles (TM), but it still was all about ego gratification and should have been avoided.

CaptainShuddup says

How do you Guys explain, Haitians that come to this country barefoot, and own a fleet of Taxis and a few A.M. Radio station with in a decade?

Ah, yes. The usual "there exists" versus "for all" fallacy.

justme says

Ah, yes. The usual "there exists" versus "for all" fallacy.

Well we all aren't Sports champions, but you notice I didn't say "Can't be" Sports champions.

You guys are the reason all of the Poor and Poor black people were saying... "Obama is going to pay our Bills". My wife found an internet rumor going around that Obama will pay their FP&L electric Bill if you Vote Obama. There were a lot of motivated and excited people flooding FP&L phones inquiring about how to cash in on it.

Then there's this...
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/26/2914733/private-eyes-tip-led-to-absentee.html

Just for a minute, let's forget Welfare and government handouts, and talk about the working poor.
Put yourself in the shoes of someone who has to work a minimum wage job. For whatever reason, that is all that is available to you. Working full time, you are still well under the poverty line. Let's say you have a family to take care of, so you can't attend school to get some better job skills. What can you do? Your life is going to be a constant struggle to survive.
The problem is that the minimum wage is not a living wage. In the past, a person who worked at a gas station could support a family. These days, a minimum-wage earner can't even afford to pay rent, much less support a family.
There are millions and millions of people in this situation. Saying that only lazy people make minimum wage is just ignorant. There will always be people who do not have the skills or the education to hold a higher-level job. People who used to make a decent living as bricklayers or factory workers. Not everyone can become rich by starting an internet company. But the minimum-wage earners work hard every day, usually harder than those people who make more money, and always in fear of losing their jobs, because they are easily replaced (by other desperate poor people).
The rich benefit from this by exploiting the cheap labor (think WalMart, etc.).
What we need is a higher minimum wage. The Republicans will not let this happen, saying it will hurt businesses (aka the rich). Unless the minimum wage is raised to a reasonable living wage, the poverty level will continue to rise.

CaptainShuddup says

lostand confused says

Freedom to choose does not exist in a vacuum. A woman can choose to wear a mini dress and walk the streets in Saudi Arabia-but she will probbaly be flogged or worse. Here she might recieve compliments. Same thing in life-if the deck is stacked against you-as it seems to be increasingly in this country-it is that much harder to climb .

How do you Guys explain, Haitians that come to this country barefoot, and own a fleet of Taxis and a few A.M. Radio station with in a decade?
The likes of Manny and Jean Cherubin
(http://www.wavs1170.com/)of which I have had the pleasure of writing the CLEC software for them when they were in the Home telephone prepaid business as well.

Try telling those bothers that the Cards are stacked against them. I think they are too busy winning with the hand they were dealt to take that load of crap seriously.

I do not know what you mean by you guys, but your whole post is full of cliches. I lived in FL for quite a while and knew plenty of Haitians-very, very few achieve what you say.

Now a few decades ago, anybody who got out of college had a job-multiple offers at times. The cost of housing was low, outsourcing was unheard of and many private companies offered pension and full benefits. To care about your fellow Americans was still something to be proud of.

A person coming out of school in that envirnoment had it easy vs someone finishing school now and staring at close to 50% unemployment for fresh graduates. What a young kid has to go through to get ahead in life today is vastly differen than what a kid had to just a few decades ago. You can thank your Reaganistic policies for that-fully adopted by the democrats too.

If you run a business and face strong competiton , you do everything in your power to fight . You don't sit and sing kumbaye, the free trade is working, me and my family have a high standard of living, so we are failing-lets embrace free trade and relish our fall to the great free market principles-kumbaye.

Now if you cared to read the link I provided, you will know that it is several republicans, including Rick Santorum who openly bemoan the fact that it is increasingly difficult for someone in the US to get ahead-when compared to other western nations. Of course if one were to believe faith rather than facts and claim faith to be science-well there is no arguing there.

To end poverty would end the comfort of the rich. So it ain't gonna happen, no matter how hard the poor work.

Patrick -- I understand what you are saying but the resignation I sense here is exactly what keeps people's tongues in their mouths and their hands at their sides.

CaptainShuddup says

How do you Guys explain, Haitians that come to this country barefoot, and own a fleet of Taxis and a few A.M. Radio station with in a decade?

I have another question on the above statment:

Why do "we" have to "explain" the existence of a Haitian immigrant with a barefoot-to-broadcast-buisness success story?

I'll explain something else instead:

The existence of such as story does not prove anything about social mobility and merit-based mobility IN GENERAL.

It just provides a simple example that brain-dead right-wingers present as some kind of proof that the US is merit-based society. It is not.