patrick.net

Thought it is a fitting time to repost this, after listening to Repuglican BS at their convention.

Right,....now that we are in deep recession they are going to fight for fiscal sanity, because that's what they always do.

Just published it on reddit, but couldn't get it off the ground before and probably won't now, either because I don't know how (or have the karma or whatever) or because the young liberals there aren't sympathetic to this message.

(feeling doubtful about what social security or medicare will have for them 40 or more years from now, they can't get as bothered by this as they should)

I half want to see Romney elected and let the Republicans go all Scott Walker on the country just so the dimwits who voted for him get to watch the country tailspin into the dirt, then try and figure out who to blame. Unfortunately it wouldn't be themselves because they are too thick to see it, so that just would make it sad and not funny. :(

gbenson says

I half want to see Romney elected and let the Republicans go all Scott Walker on the country just so the dimwits who voted for him get to watch the country tailspin into the dirt, then try and figure out who to blame. Unfortunately it wouldn't be themselves because they are too thick to see it, so that just would make it sad and not funny. :(

Yes because that strategy worked out so well with W

Give it a rest Ruki. China pays its teachers on par with doctors. Our teachers are overworked and underpaid. China is kicking our ass in just about everything. You do the math.

(for what its worth I agree that unions do some stupid stuff in terms of protecting idiots who deserve to be fired, but as a general rule teaching is a sucky job in this country and it shouldn't be if we hope to have a future)

We don't need no ed-u-ca-tion...

We don't need no thought con-trol...

gbenson says

China pays its teachers on par with doctors

In America, teachers have been getting regular raises now for the past half century to teach simple K-12 topics. They have more employment and retirement security than engineers & scientists who BTW, work 50 weeks per year, as oppose to 36 weeks.

So perhaps the decline in engineering, as a viable secure profession due to both offshoring (and cancellation of supercollider projects, etc), has more to do with our decline, since the 80s, than teachers?

Rin says

So perhaps the decline in engineering, as a viable secure profession due to both offshoring (and cancellation of supercollider projects, etc)

And don't forget computers. Computers have killed a lot of science/math professions by automating everything. Why pay a human to understand complex mathematical topics when a computer can do the same thing in a few milliseconds...at a fraction of the cost?

Deskilling: the process by which skilled labor within an industry or economy is eliminated by the introduction of technologies operated by semiskilled or unskilled workers. This results in cost savings due to lower investment in human capital, and reduces barriers to entry, weakening the bargaining power of the human capital

freak80 says

Deskilling: the process by which skilled labor within an industry or economy is eliminated by the introduction of technologies operated by semiskilled or unskilled workers.

And if we bring that full circle, why are teachers well paid for 36 weeks of work with full benefits and pension?

I'd taught a few high school courses for a semester, during a period between contracting assignments. I was pleasantly un-surprised at the mediocrity of the place, despite it being suburban.

In college, where courses met twice or thrice per week, high school class blocks meet daily but for 50 mins. In it, the knowledge was scattered everywhere, with little emphasis on anything. I'd changed that completely, I never added new material by the middle of the 4th or 5th meeting of the week, and I reserved time, in the middle of a section, to review prior material for 5 mins. I'd learned this from how to reverse the Ebbinghaus forgetting curve.

Well, in the end, I had most students getting B's or above and no one had trouble with either mid-terms or finals. I was an easy job but many teachers are either lazy or mediocre. I support home schooling.

Rin says

And if we bring that full circle, why are teachers well paid for 36 weeks of work with full benefits and pension?

I guess it depends on what you call well paid. YOu can find a few examples of better pay. But the average top of the scale, after teaching 10 to 18 years (or more) and taking a lot of additional courses, is in the neighborhood of 60K.

That is, it takes 10 or more years and possibly a Masters degree or many additional classes to get up to that level.

(he may now cite one of the highest paying districts in the country but I'm talking about average)

So, many teachers work summers to make a few thousand more.

Rin says

it, the knowledge was scattered everywhere, with little emphasis on anything. I'd changed that completely, I never added new material by the middle of the 4th or 5th meeting of the week, and I reserved time, in the middle of a section, to review prior material for 5 mins. I'd learned this from how to reverse the Ebbinghaus forgetting curve.

Wow, maybe you should go in to business providing professional development for teachers. It would seem that your common sense is light years ahead of what most teachers could ever hope to do after all of their training and experience.

marcus says

YOu can find a few examples of better pay. But the average top of the scale, after teaching 10 to 18 years (or more) and taking a lot of additional courses, is in the neighborhood of 60K.

Yes, I'm biased here, as I live in Massachusetts and we have strong teacher unions. Thus, 10 years with consistent raises is greater than $60K for many Bay State teachers. I can't speak so much for the burnt out inner cities like Brockton, Fall River, etc, but the regular towns have pretty good compensation.

most teachers could ever hope to do after all of their training and experience.

Again, being biased, I'd discovered that they didn't care about teaching but were more concerned about "appearing to be concerned and conscientious" and thus, were really another self-serving group of unionized 'no value added' workers. After my stint at teaching, I've been getting my niece and friends' children more interested in homeschooling. My niece, being a theater enthusiast, had decided to stay in HS but others are looking at exiting, circa 9th or 10th grade.

Public school teaching is little more than babysitting the children of low-lifes. Unless you're in a nice suburb.

It's a terrible profession. I can't believe anyone would actually *want* to go into it. You get blamed for everything.

freak80 says

Unless you're in a nice suburb.

Nice suburbs aren't anything great either. That's where I'd taught and have lost respect for many teachers. They're extremely self-serving and play that sort of HR game of being 'enablers' and then, many of them hide behind their pet grad school topics like Jung, Thoreau, or Hegel. In other words, they're not really teaching what's of importance (the curricula) but their worldviews, usually related to 60s counterculture tripe.

Rin says

In other words, they're not really teaching what's of importance (the curricula) but their worldviews, usually related to 60s counterculture tripe.

True. It's even worse in college.

Unless you're going into Engineering, Law, or Medicine, college is a huge waste of time and money. It's mostly just far-left indoctrination. Far-left ideologues aren't employable anywhere else!

Rin says

Again, being biased, I'd discovered that they didn't care about teaching but were more concerned about "appearing to be concerned and conscientious" and thus, were really another self-serving group of unionized 'no value added' workers.

Is that an observation or an assessment ?

Sounds like some kind of projection to me.

Some teachers are burnt out. And the high number of students is at times daunting. But the idea that the typical teacher secretly doesn't care, is absurd.
At a minimum, they would wish to appear (to themselves) to be truly concerned about the progress of their students. That is they themselves must believe that they care.

The idea that you think many teachers are only interested in appearing to others to care about their students, in my opinion speaks volumes about you.
Mind you, I am not all that high on what motivates the typical human, but even I am not nearly that cynical.

Being a teacher without caring about the kids and their learning would be an awful job.

freak80 says

Rin says

In other words, they're not really teaching what's of importance (the curricula) but their worldviews, usually related to 60s counterculture tripe.

True. It's even worse in college.

Unless you're going into Engineering, Law, or Medicine, college is a huge waste of time and money. It's mostly just far-left indoctrination.

That stuff is more tolerable in college because despite the personal 'insertions', college professors, by force, have to teach the curricula or they get terrible student reviews and then, few ppl sign up for them again. In HS, if you have to listen to someone talk about Vietnam Protesters but in an Ancient History class, there's not much you can do about it. I presume that there are some parallelisms between Aristophane's comedies and 60s stuff, but let's leave that to theatre arts extracurriculars or a special discussion group on historic re-occurring themes.

marcus says

Is that an observation or an assessment ?

Both, that's why I'm active in homeschooling for my friends' children. Remember, I'd said that I was biased. Thus, I'm not hiding in my subconscious; I openly don't like teachers' unions.

In contrast to them, I did a fabulous job. My two worst students, both were getting Ds earlier, finished with a C+ (half year marking), under me. Later, I'd found out that one finished with a B- (composite) with a solid A on her final exam.

Sorry, I'm not buying your ad hominem maneuvers. So what does it say about me? Give me your "volumes" of psychoanalysis of my central issue?

Dammit Marcus, you got coffee up my nose!

freak80 says

Unless you're going into Engineering, Law, or Medicine, college is a huge waste of time and money. It's mostly just far-left indoctrination. Far-left ideologues aren't employable anywhere else!

Eh not really.

The fact of the matter is a fair amount of jobs do ask for degrees. Consider this for a moment.

1) No employer wants to teach a skill to someone that has a value somewhere else. Naturally there's some exceptions with safety and government compliance (think food safety)

2) Because of #2 experience in one organization does not exactly hold a value with another. So this leads to different computer systems being made, different policies, different staff levels, different organizational attributes etc.

3) Few employers are really open with their records to other organizations. Why would IBM give up employee records to EDS or Proctor and Gamble? There's no incentive. With education they kinda have to be open with standards and being open about grades. Asking for transcripts from a college or university is a common every day thing. You cannot ask for it from IBM, AT&T, 3Com etc.

To note the idea of being indoctrinated by anyone in education is a joke. Wifi is everywhere and frankly people can google things in a class to prove someone being right or not. I personally know someone that had a English teacher in high school claim that the Korean war ended with the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki! Obviously it wasn't her subject and she had a breakdown when students pointed it out.

There are serious differences between the teaching of students in china and usa. Having been in both countries classrooms it can be said that what is in china is largely instruction. Teachers as students questions. Students NEVER ask the teacher questions..think about it for a moment. The other bits are different as Malcom Gladwell described in that the language is simpler in terms of how numbers are said...which leads to being faster in math. Also factor in that in the USA the concept of a summer was for planing crops as they could not grow year round. In China it grows year round anyway so there is no time off for that. The gap of brainpower that exists before and after summer is significant. Instead summer school is viewed as punishment....huh?

Teachers unions are largely antiquated because there's no such thing as a group teachers license in any state in the country. Teachers are licensed as a individual.

Call it Crazy says

Apparently, even the ones going into law aren't that bright!!!

My goodness. If you're going to be successful in Law, you have have to know how to cheat *without* getting caught.

What does this say about the future of America if our Law students don't even know how to lie and cheat properly?

What's next? Finance students not know how to steal?

freak80 says

If you're going to be successful in Law, you have have to know how to cheat *without* getting caught.

Actually, a preponderance of Harvard (and other Ivy) undergrads opt for management consulting or investment banking careers, more so than law these days. Thus, sharing info, but only among cronies, is a part of the job description and thus, these students performed marvelously. If I were McKinsey or Lazard, I'd sign 'em up immediately!