patrick.net

You nail ever single damn issue. This is entirely true since this mess we have been renting a gorgeous house w/built in pool, gardener, pool boy. I invested in art and antiques while the fools all around were buying up the next house. They are underwater. I plan to build. I have the plans set. And I could do it today but am I? HELL NO. Right now until I see pricing not manipulated all around and a government leadership I believe in and can trust I wait. But right now my investments in art and antiques have more than doubled in value they are all paid and I have ZERO mortgage debt and pristine credit. My classic cars are PAID IN FULL.

BANG SUCKERS
that's the reality of renting in a shite real estate market.

It's just business. The sooner people realize this, the sooner they can blow off the lies told by scam artists everywhere. Want to be rich? Buck the trend! It's not the average Joe six pack who gets rich. It's Ernie who saves 40% of his income for five years by doing practically nothing else and living in a scary neighborhood to get seed money for his business idea which he then implements and through insane amounts of work grows to a success. Then ten years later when his fiftieth franchise opens he can have the pleasure of someone like Obama to come along and say, "You didn't build that."

Quigley says

It's just business. The sooner people realize this, the sooner they can blow off the lies told by scam artists everywhere. Want to be rich? Buck the trend! It's not the average Joe six pack who gets rich. It's Ernie who saves 40% of his income for five years by doing practically nothing else and living in a scary neighborhood to get seed money for his business idea which he then implements and through insane amounts of work grows to a success. Then ten years later when his fiftieth franchise opens he can have the pleasure of someone like Obama to come along and say, "You didn't build that."

AMEN BROTHER

Watch D'Souza's film Obama 2016. It explains why.

SFace says

With rare exceptions, rents are significanly higher than interest.

I guess my last three rentals have been exceptions. Cool.

RentalWatch says

SFace says

There's permenant cost associated with owing, but so does renting.

You're being disingenuous now...... renting is a fraction of the cost of owning at current inflated asking prices of resale housing.

Of course he is and clearly doesn't understand what you are saying. That one is writing a commercial for the industry.

Tell me where I can rent 14+- acres with a post and beam 2000"sq.house with orchard,well,pasture,solar panels,radiant floor heat,on demand water heater and wood lot for my mortgage+tax payment of $2000K.
Olympic peninsula is where MINE is.

I got elk,more salmon I can eat and a semi-tame raven.

Jobs are done.
You're on your own.

divelly says

Tell me where I can rent 14+- acres with a post and beam 2000"sq.house with orchard,well,pasture,solar panels,radiant floor heat,on demand water heater and wood lot for my mortgage+tax payment of $2000K.

Olympic peninsula is where MINE is.

Your point? Or are you scripting a commercial too? I have family in 10M plus ocean view real estate that is PAID bought 50 years ago. That isn't the issue on this site.

The issue is the real estate bubble and bust fiasco ie. the purchase over rent and the realistic comparisons based on fact and reality of grossly overinflated pricing due to greed and manipulation of the past ten years. It isn't logical or sensible to talk about purchases or those properties paid in full without debt, but I also find it hard to believe you have mortgage debt, plus taxes and insurance? for 2K on 14 plus acres on the Olympic pennisula.

And if you have 14+ acres on the Olympic peninsula for only 2K what the fuck are you doing in Queens?

Quigley says

The sooner people realize this, the sooner they can blow off the lies told by scam artists everywhere.

The one with buyer's remose will never come to this point until they file bankruptcy (and today the aftermath of a bankruptcy due to changing laws IMHO make that near DEATH.)

The owning is equity spiel isn't used much anymore tho...since such a large swath of the public outright bought or HELOC'ed up 2002-2007 or so. It took a major downturn for a lot of folks to realize that one should very carefully make the decision to buy vs. rent. Equity really is just a fancy term for money....and equity comes out negatives sometimes, too

Fate and levelheadedness have treated us well. We bought in Washington DC in late 1995....I swear we must've closed at the lowest point in DC housing history. Mayor Marion 'Crackhead' Barry was in his 3rd term and folks with any kind of decent income (and a family) were buying in the MD and VA suburbs, not DC itself. No one was putting up with the derelict police, fire, and school services in DC then.

But, we were childless at the time so school didn't matter to us. What I saw we're the SAME exact home in Chevy Chase, MD cost 30% less than the ones in the Chevy Chase section of DC...and the DC ones had walking access to one of the best underground subway systems in the US. Yet, folks were fleeing DC.

Despite 7% mortgage interest rates, with a 10% down payment and a 10% second (all we could afford to put down then...the second mortgage was pretty much wiped by Fannie, Freddie and FHA nowadays) owning a home was ~25% less costly monthly.

So, we bought - and luck intervened. Mayor Crackhead announced it was to be his last term - a group of DC businessman cobbled together $$ and established a 4 year post at Howard University as Professor Emeritus at 2x the mayors pay. The 3 time divorced and 1x bankrupt mayor took the bait like flies to dog shit. The businessmen were developers who knew Barry's presence was killing land deals in the most important capital in the world.

I think the day the mayor announced our home must've gone up in value 10% and kept climbing. We put nothing but painting and re-did the floors and even factoring that and agent 6% when sold...we doubled our money.

We had the itch to move to CA, still childless, so we did. We were unsure if we'd stay so we signed a 2 year lease. The prices here had already begun moving up in 2002, so it made sense in most ways to do this. Well, we liked it here, decided to stay (began a family here) and signed on another 2 years. That was 2004 and prices were ramping up seriously. It was like 40% more to own each month...folks were nuts...but they were enticed by nothing down, pick a pay monthlies for 5 years and the belief that homes never go down.

Something seemed so wrong with this mania, that despite some objections from the wife (now with kids the homing instinct was raised and she wanted to 'settle') we decided to rent for another 2 years. In April 2006 the home mania was in full swing - home prices were zooming, but despite low inventory, home rents faltered. It was 50% cheaper to rent than own monthly with less hassle....so again with my wife less happy, we rented another 2 years.

Well, 2008 came around and she began seeing the home carnage around her. Rents were still cheaper, but stabilized, but prices were falling. I inquired into buying as we now had good assets and great FICO's, but she wouldn't let me so we rented another 2 years.

This brings us to 2010. We were on the same page - prefer to buy - but nothing struck us as worthwhile. The rent vs buy still more slightly favored rent and there was so much carnage we felt unsure - so we rented another 2 years.

2 months ago we moved into our first owned place in 10 years. With 20% down today, a place costs ~20% less monthly to own than rent. It's probably still not a wide enough disparity to buy frankly...but we have great assets for waiting for 10 years and can afford to lose the down payment if that happens.

So, we'll see how it goes. But the whole notion if equity really is a red herring dangled too often by an establishment that benefits more from signing a mortgage than a lease and should be factored out of any home decision.

jsmarket says

The owning is equity spiel isn't used much anymore tho...since such a large swath of the public outright bought or HELOC'ed up 2002-2007 or so.

And right THERE was the problem the first group likely lost most of their money the second group went under.

repo4sale says

BUT 2011 WAS THE BOTTOM OF CALIFORNIA PRICES.

WHAT a commercial! Woo Hoo!

What you HAVE done is you have so convenienced me NOT to touch a fucking thing in CA.

Middle of nowhere is the only place to be,asshole.
As to why I am in Queens,I go back and forth until my wife retires from her high six figure job in Manhattan.

"Renters are actually in a better position to build equity through investing in anything but housing.". Wrong , wrong wrong. People tend to spend every penny they earn and then dip into plastic. Plus, a bad investment anywhere, is a bad investment. Your anti-RE idea applies only to bubble priced property.

"You're comparing a depreciating asset like a house to an investment like stocks. Why are you doing that?" idiotic assumption the stock market is like a golden goose.

KILLERJANE says

"Renters are actually in a better position to build equity through investing in anything but housing.". Wron

Maybe in YOUR social circle and world not in mine.

RentalWatch says

KILLERJANE says

idiotic assumption the stock market is like a golden goose.

You're making the assumption.

I have one response to that guy ENRON

"Renters have no opportunity to build equity."

AGREED.

Having 'opportunity' and actually doing something pro-active with it?

A bunch do not act. Most spend all they have discretionary.

KILLERJANE says

"Renters have no opportunity to build equity."

AGREED.

Having 'opportunity' and actually doing something pro-active with it?

A bunch do not act. Most spend all they have discretionary.

Just keep your blinders on! Common sense is a myth.

That largely depends on their social standing and sophistication. This applies to both owners and renters. I have seen many 100K plus households broke living with plastic furniture.

Again, you're comparing leveraged equity with investments that aren't leveraged.

RentalWatch says

KILLERJANE says

"Renters have no opportunity to build equity."

AGREED.

Equity isn't "built" via depreciating assets.

AMEN

THEY DONT GET IT. I see all too clearly how this crew got elected. God damn the fucking public are both blind and stupid.

pkennedy says

Again, you're comparing leveraged equity with investments that aren't leveraged.

Leveraged or not a depreciating asset is losing money one way or another.

KILLERJANE says

I make 15% after costs guaranteed through rent income. You can't get that guarantee in the stocks.

Just keep your blinders on! Common sense is a myth.

Is that the commercial of the smiling landlord in front of his income property?

The best advice a co-worker once told me (back in '07, no less):

- "Get the housing you NEED, not the housing you WANT."
- "If it's cheaper to rent, RENT. If it's cheaper to buy, BUY."

It hasn't been "cheaper to buy" for a very, very long time. Probably 1999 or earlier, imo. So I keep renting. And I'm happy.

divelly says

Middle of nowhere is the only place to be,asshole.

As to why I am in Queens,I go back and forth until my wife retires from her high six figure job in Manhattan.

You know you don't include the .00 in the figure digit count right?

KILLERJANE says

I make 15% after costs guaranteed through rent income. You can't get that guarantee in the stocks. And if I factor in the appreciation, I am at 25%, but with no real guarantee there, I will leave it at 15%, happily. But I am sure the 2001 house cannot be rebuilt for what I paid.

Just keep your blinders on! Common sense is a myth.

When you compare to yesterdays costs, yah 15% is good. However, compare it to what it would cost you for that place today. There is how to conclude its investment quality. I bought Cisco stock at $5 a long time ago and their 3% dividend is really a 12% based on my original cost. However, I can't tell a new investor to look at Cisco cause it pays 12% dividends.

Wrong, you just have to be smart about what you do and always have a back Door plan. All these one sided arguments have many gray zones.

On a side note, your avatar is creepy yet creative.

RentalWatch says

And that's about all you could get for it today once you depreciate it for disrepair.

KILLERJANE says

I block those who only see one side, they bore me.

Just keep your blinders on! Common sense is a myth.

You mean those who disagree with you? Well, then you might as well FOLD.

If all one can do is argue one side and not offer any new info, then nothing is gained.

repo4sale says

BUT 2011 WAS THE BOTTOM OF CALIFORNIA PRICES.

WRONG!

Not only was the bottom not in 2011, other years were lower.

Home prices in Califronia are still in decline.

Here is the graph

by the way nationally we are in pre-2000 house prices, see the problem with California housing?

Still nearly 2x overpriced, there is a direct impact on the market due to low wages and jobs.

Salaries have no risen for 30yrs.

But a home in California has doubled and tripped.

Unless your earning 250k a year with no debt your broke in Cali.

The rest are working poor ,including those fools with car leases for $650 a month

Looking at the graph above shows me the market has a long way to crash still a very long way to go. 2015/2017 the bottom will arrive.

Politicofact says

Looking at the graph above shows me the market has a long way to crash still a very long way to go. 2015/2017 the bottom will arrive.

If that, because the numbers being in the late 80s.

RentalWatch says

KILLERJANE says

I block those who only see one side, they bore me.

You folded like a cheap whore in a lawn chair.

ROFL that's a new line.

Politicofact says

Not only was the bottom not in 2011, other years were lower.

Home prices in Califronia are still in decline.

Here is the graph

It does look like we still have a bit further downward to go based on that.

divelly says

Middle of nowhere is the only place to be,asshole.

As to why I am in Queens,I go back and forth until my wife retires from her high six figure job in Manhattan.

Kew Gardens - I used to have a buddy that lived there. I was living in Manhattan at the time, but used to go to his place a lot to play soccer and ultimate Frisbee in Flushing Meadow park.

You don't need to apologize for Queens. It has some very nice areas and great food. But the Olympic Peninsula is pretty nice too. The food isn't as good, though.

RentalWatch says

Reader says

RentalWatch says

KILLERJANE says

I block those who only see one side, they bore me.

You folded like a cheap whore in a lawn chair.

ROFL that's a new line.

Reader

lmao..... Like a crack whore in a cheap lawn chair?

Yes, at least new to me. I burst on that one.

Renters can get rich much faster than owners, just by saving the money that owners are wasting on mortgages, taxes, and maintenance.

Renters are paying their landlord's mortgages, taxes, and maintenance. They are only winning if they can wait and do better in the future, but market timing is tough even for Wall Street geniuses, who don't agree on the direction of the real estate or other markets, let alone for the average person or family.

Renters are getting paid to wait, both by the monthly savings and by watching the value of their savings increase relative to housing.

Only if housing and interest costs are on the decline and will continue to be.

Owners are losing principal in a leveraged way as prices decline.

True, just as owners gain in a leveraged way when prices go up. I see more up side than down side from this point in the market, but reasonable people can disagree about it. The latest Case-Schiller report shows a national upswing: http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Case-Shiller-index-Home-values-climbing-3894161.php

Owers must pay taxes simply to own a house.

This is indeed annoying, let's get rid of property taxes. Has anywhere in the U.S. done this? As mentioned above, for rental properties, the taxes are either coming from the tenants (most cases) or from the landlord's pocket.

That is not true of stocks, bonds, or any other asset that can build equity.

Doesn't Florida actually have a tax on such assets, at least above a certain exclusion level?

Owers must insure a house, but not most other investments

Owners must insure their belongings in an apartment, as well. Either tenants or landlord's losses are paying for the insurance on rental properties.

RentalWatch says

It shows a seasonal bounce... just like every other year.

Wrong. It's a year to year comparison, not December to July comparison.

Homeowners who own can insure or not insure. Those who owe the bank have to insure. Tenants whose landlords require insurance must insure; tenants whose landlords don't require insurance can go bare if they want to.