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Exactly when did "liberals" decide to stop being tolerant?


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2012 Nov 25, 7:21am   32,776 views  76 comments

by FuckTheMainstreamMedia   ➕follow (3)   💰tip   ignore  

As I remember, one of the core tennents of the "liberal" belief system was tolerance of others...in esence, an emphasis on the ideas:

-that government ought not dictate what goes on between consenting adults behind closed doors.
-freedom of press.
-very strong support of free speech.

Basically an overall belief that as long as someone is doing or saying something that doesn't hurt anyone else, they ought to be able to do it and society and government should protect that person and their right to express themselves.

But that has diminished a great deal. The hatred by some of the left wing posters on this site is quite palpable. There is a STRONG intolerance of the ideas of others.

I'd argue that the concepts I listed above have been taken over by mostly libertarian leaning folks out there. That there are very few true liberals anymore, and that the entire liberal concept has been forcefully outdated, leaving the political spectrum worse for the wear.

IMO it really won't be too long before we see drastic changes in what is considered freedom of speech. I'm already seeing situations where people are asking to move with like minded people. Where if you don't agree with the lifestyle someone else lives, your immediately branded as a person of "hate". Where you are considered an inappropriate parent if you fail to teach your children an appropriately "tolerant" point of view as part of their upbringing.

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1   Bellingham Bill   2012 Nov 25, 7:47am  

Why should I "tolerate" stupidity.

Wanting to roll government back to the 19th century is patently stupid. If you are a small government conservative of that stripe, you are an ignorant pinhead living in an ideological la-la land worse than any present-day Marxist.

Where if you don't agree with the lifestyle someone else lives, your immediately branded as a person of "hate".

The Supreme Court in its Lawrence decision actually made a good dividing line here. You need a rational basis -- harm -- for laws, not just some bullshit reason to not approve of someone else's lifestyle.

The more religious a place is on this planet, the more of a shithole it is.

I'm never going to be "tolerant" of people wanting to turn this great nation into a Southern Baptist version of Taliban-controlled Aghanistan/Pakistan or the outright theocracy of KSA, Iran and now Iraq.

Bronze Age morality belongs in the Bronze Age.

And these two dominant threads of American movement conservatism -- the alliance between the libertarian Koch-funded small-government minarchists and the social conservatives centered on Know-Nothing fundamentalists and Mormons -- is a lot of what's wrong with America today.

I'm never going to be tolerant of those arguing we need to abandon what progress we won in the 20th century. Their facts are deficient and thus their arguments are crap.

2   FuckTheMainstreamMedia   2012 Nov 25, 8:18am  

LOL thank you for proving my point.

3   Bellingham Bill   2012 Nov 25, 9:27am  

"hey man where's my toleration, huh?"

is just passive-aggressive bullshit.

Your mouth is moving but you're not making any sense.

4   mell   2012 Nov 25, 9:47am  

Nice post, I noticed the same thing. True liberalism can still be found within the Bourgeousie (~ upper middle class) in some European countries, e.g. Germany or Switzerland. In the US most original/true liberals have either converted to libertarianism or become conservatives of some sort.

5   mell   2012 Nov 25, 9:51am  

Bellingham Bill says

I'm never going to be "tolerant" of people wanting to turn this great nation into a Southern Baptist version of Taliban-controlled Aghanistan/Pakistan or the outright theocracy of KSA, Iran and now Iraq.

As screwed up as you think some of the southern baptist folks you mention may be, to compare them with Islamic fundamentalists is just disingenious. I'd take living in a deeply christian southern state in the US anytime over a theocracy in the middle-east and so would you.

6   FuckTheMainstreamMedia   2012 Nov 25, 10:57am  

Bellingham Bill says

"hey man where's my toleration, huh?"

is just passive-aggressive bullshit.

Your mouth is moving but you're not making any sense.

Hey, I'm not the one making extremely aggressive use of language.

Rather, I think you part believe what you say and also part have found that what you say irritates others, perhaps irrationally.

Put another way, you definitely enjoys your trolling.

7   Bellingham Bill   2012 Nov 25, 11:15am  

dodgerfanjohn says

you part believe what you say and also part have found that what you say irritates others, perhaps irrationally

certainly there are more politic ways to say what I said.

doesn't matter, since what I said is exactly what I meant.

There is no underlying wisdom in the American conservatism movement today. It is a crock from end to end, purchased by propagandists and overrun by hucksters.

I have been exposed to it daily on the internet over the past 15-odd years, and in the real world its idiotic faith-based and non-"reality-based" ideological approach has done immense -- incalculable, actually -- damage to my country's prospect as a going concern.

The 2003 Iraq War alone might have fatally compromised our nation's finances still. The 2001-2003 tax cuts championed by conservatives added fuel to the housing bubble, itself engendered by conservatives in the Fed pumping up the economy for Bush's 2004 reelection combined with conservatives' de-regulating the finance sector, both with Gramm-Leach-Bliley and their control of the executive's oversight 2001-2008 and total majority Congress in 1996-2001 &/2003-2006.

Conservative laissez approach to medicine saw per-capital health costs rocket:

(and Medicare Part D was another asinine piece of the puzzle)

Meanwhile, out in the other parts of the world, other countries have been running their affairs much better than us.

Yet conservatives consistently refuse to learn from their parallel experiments and experience. Because you guys must know that they utterly refute everything you believe to be true.

And that's just the fiscal, hard number stuff. Movement conservatism's pandering to our Christian fundamentalism is a whole other dimension of fault.

Your: Where if you don't agree with the lifestyle someone else lives, your immediately branded as a person of "hate".

seemed to me to be referent to Christian intolerance of homosexual couples in this country, and the "liberal" reaction to that, which is now "intolerance" too in your world.

Conservatism is a failed ideology. Romney may not have been "severely conservative" enough, but conservatives offer no solutions to anything here in the reality-based world. All your ideas have just made things so, so much worse.

So no thanks to "tolerance" of all that.

8   lostand confused   2012 Nov 25, 11:19am  

Whatever happened to stating your opinion and letting the chips fall where they may. Conservatives - I hate gays, I think they are an abomination, I don't care if a gay couple has been together for three decades-they better not be visiting their partner on their death bed, they cannot get married, they cannot adopt kids yada, yada. Now for these opinions and laws, everyone should love me, oh why are people so intolerant, why do they hate me so -oh the intolerance!!!

9   Entitlemented   2012 Nov 25, 11:22am  

Conservatism is about conserving best concepts.

Liberalism is now a combination of Democracy, and a Aristocrasy as defined by Montesquie.

Furthermore, while the War from 911 was misguided, and concerns terrorist planning secret missions, and hiding, Clinton shares some of the blame due to not get OBL when it was known.

Further, the CRA, and the Repeal of Glass Stegall were complete Democrat engineered changes: http://www.nytimes.com/1999/10/24/us/deal-on-bank-bill-was-helped-along-by-midnight-talks.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

The liberals did NAFTA, and also the CRA, in which the bad faith loans quickly became the norm in the FHA and private loans. There is a reason why 20% went away around 1998, and the only reason is the CRA and its influences.

10   Tenpoundbass   2012 Nov 25, 11:25am  

You're clearly an uneducated, obese middle aged white guy, with a family. But it's nothing joining a Union wont fix.

11   FuckTheMainstreamMedia   2012 Nov 25, 11:38am  

CaptainShuddup says

clearly an uneducated, obese middle aged white guy, with a family. But it's nothing joining a Union wont

Assuming you are addressing me,

I'm slightly below middle aged, I'm overweight but not morbidly obese, I am caucasian, I have a BS, and I am a union member.

My advice is to discontinue prognosticating until you're good at it. Or even halfway decent.

Particularly considering I've posted all of the above and its easily accessible by reading through my past postings.

12   FuckTheMainstreamMedia   2012 Nov 25, 11:42am  

lostand confused says

Whatever happened to stating your opinion and letting the chips fall where they may. Conservatives - I hate gays, I think they are an abomination, I don't care if a gay couple has been together for three decades-they better not be visiting their partner on their death bed, they cannot get married, they cannot adopt kids yada, yada. Now for these opinions and laws, everyone should love me, oh why are people so intolerant, why do they hate me so -oh the intolerance!!!

I don't think Christians...and lets be clear here...your use of the term Conservatives here means exactly "Born again Protestant Christian"....hate anyone.

I think theres a pretty large gap between "I don't think gays should be married" to "I hate people and want them to die". Theres even a really large gap between "I don't like gays" and "I want gays to die".

13   Bellingham Bill   2012 Nov 25, 11:45am  

Entitlemented says

The liberals did NAFTA,

great, another Darrell impersonator.

14   mell   2012 Nov 25, 11:56am  

dodgerfanjohn says

CaptainShuddup says

clearly an uneducated, obese middle aged white guy, with a family. But it's nothing joining a Union wont

Assuming you are addressing me,

I'm slightly below middle aged, I'm overweight but not morbidly obese, I am caucasian, I have a BS, and I am a union member.

My advice is to discontinue prognosticating until you're good at it. Or even halfway decent.

Particularly considering I've posted all of the above and its easily accessible by reading through my past postings.

I think he was addressing the previous poster, not you ;)

15   Bellingham Bill   2012 Nov 25, 11:57am  

dodgerfanjohn says

Theres even a really large gap between "I don't like gays" and "I want gays to die".

but there is no gap when conservatives cross the line and legislate their Bronze Age morality.

The funny thing is, they are only concerned with enforcing their law on others -- Old Testament morality for thee and not for me.

And the man that commits adultery with another man's wife, even he that commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. -- Leviticus 20:10

Too bad, General Petraeus was such a nice man.

16   lostand confused   2012 Nov 25, 12:04pm  

dodgerfanjohn says

I don't think Christians...and lets be clear here...your use of the term Conservatives here means exactly "Born again Protestant Christian"....hate anyone.
I think theres a pretty large gap between "I don't think gays should be married" to "I hate people and want them to die". Theres even a really large gap between "I don't like gays" and "I want gays to die".

dodgerfanjohn says

IMO it really won't be too long before we see drastic changes in what is considered freedom of speech. I'm already seeing situations where people are asking to move with like minded people. Where if you don't agree with the lifestyle someone else lives, your immediately branded as a person of "hate". Where you are considered an inappropriate parent if you fail to teach your children an appropriately "tolerant" point of view as part of their upbringing.

I just don't get this republican viewpoint. Look around you, so much time and money has been spent in legislation against gays. Preventing them from getting married, preventing them from visitng loved ones in hospitals, preventing them from adopting kids, calling them all sorts of names. So they fight back and the conservative position is -oh my God my free speech rights are being violated-oh my God the constitution-oh, oh my God-swoon..

The most dramatic drag queen could not compete with some of these republicans. The first amendment works like this-you say what you want and the gays/whoever say what they want. Not you say what you want and they are supposed to shut up and agree with whatever you say. If you don't like what they say-come up with a better argument.

17   FuckTheMainstreamMedia   2012 Nov 25, 12:09pm  

lostand confused says

violated-oh my God the constitution-oh, oh my God-swoon..
The most dramatic drag queen could not compete with some of these republicans. The first amendment works like this-you

And then there is the key word "some".

Personally, I am Christian.

But I do not presume to know what God wants or does not want. He has given us guidelines by which to live. He has not given us instructions to determine who is or is not Christian and who is or is not saved.

If someone is gay...and all indications are that it is indeed caused by a combinations of genetic and environmental factors....its not within the scope of my understanding to judge that person.

If you spoke with Christians in depth, and I'll admit that sometimes there are many layers to peel through, you will find more often than not their understanding will be the same as mine.

What is portrayed in the media is intentional and is from people who desire media attention.

Me personally, I have no agenda against anyone for the way they choose to live, provided they do not hurt others.

Preventing from adoption and marriage...I can see where it comes from although I do not entirely agree with that agenda. Everything else, I think is hyperbole and smoke and mirrors. At least in any sort of mass numbers.

18   Tenpoundbass   2012 Nov 25, 12:23pm  

dodgerfanjohn says

I'm slightly below middle aged, I'm overweight but not morbidly obese, I am caucasian, I have a BS, and I am a union member.

Then is sound like you're in the all clear, with the Liberal shitlist.

19   Bellingham Bill   2012 Nov 25, 12:23pm  

Conservatives are doing the 'woe-is-me how dare you disrespect my religion' act too with PPACA's requirement that health plans offer contraception coverage.

This is not a small thing in our socio-politics. Conservative Christians dominate the current Republican coalition. They showed up this month at 26% of the electorate and 43% of Romney's total vote.

This is why the Republican power structure is tying itself up in knots. They know all the philosophizing on rape by their conservative Christian senator candidates really killed them at the polls.

And the Goldwater conservatives among them know that dealing with the fundamentalists really sucks.

Yet without the fundies in the tent the modern GOP is just the conservative redneck party, what the Democrats used to be back before Wilson.

20   Dan8267   2012 Nov 25, 1:20pm  

dodgerfanjohn says

Exactly when did "liberals" decide to stop being tolerant?

Never

dodgerfanjohn says

The hatred by some of the left wing posters on this site is quite palpable. There is a STRONG intolerance of the ideas of others.

And there's your problem. You think "left" and "liberal" mean the same thing. They don't.

A liberal believes that people should be allowed to do whatever the fuck they want with absolutely no interference from government as long as they are not harming another or infringing upon another's rights (actually, these two things are the same).

Anyone who is not a liberal is a commie scumbag.

21   Homeboy   2012 Nov 25, 3:22pm  

dodgerfanjohn says

-that government ought not dictate what goes on between consenting adults behind closed doors.
-freedom of press.
-very strong support of free speech.

Basically an overall belief that as long as someone is doing or saying something that doesn't hurt anyone else, they ought to be able to do it and society and government should protect that person and their right to express themselves.

But that has diminished a great deal. The hatred by some of the left wing posters on this site is quite palpable. There is a STRONG intolerance of the ideas of others.

This is utter nonsense. The simple act of disagreeing with another is not an abridgment of free speech. You are extremely confused.

22   FuckTheMainstreamMedia   2012 Nov 25, 3:40pm  

Wow, absolutely awesome how several posters go on to prove my point....

Hey, its fine to disagree, but if I think you are incorrect, imma shout you down, use any angle I can to disparage and mischaracterize you and insta invalidate your opinion.

MSNBC.

Amirite?

23   FuckTheMainstreamMedia   2012 Nov 25, 3:41pm  

Homeboy says

dodgerfanjohn says

-that government ought not dictate what goes on between consenting adults behind closed doors.

-freedom of press.

-very strong support of free speech.

Basically an overall belief that as long as someone is doing or saying something that doesn't hurt anyone else, they ought to be able to do it and society and government should protect that person and their right to express themselves.

But that has diminished a great deal. The hatred by some of the left wing posters on this site is quite palpable. There is a STRONG intolerance of the ideas of others.

This is utter nonsense. The simple act of disagreeing with another is not an abridgment of free speech. You are extremely confused.

You entirely misunderstood my posting.

24   Dan8267   2012 Nov 25, 11:41pm  

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

I believe everything has gone completely shithouse since the 9th Century and that 8th Century values are the basis upon which the Constitution was written and the Framers codified. Therefore, all those radical amendments, like the 13th, 14th and 19th Amendments must fucking go!

8th and 9th century? Actually, that probably wasn't a typo.

If you can't carry a sword, you are peasant meat.

25   lostand confused   2012 Nov 25, 11:42pm  

So according to conservatives, people should love these right wingers?
http://www.youtube.com/embed/X1Ck4m9EXeo&feature=related

26   FuckTheMainstreamMedia   2012 Nov 25, 11:52pm  

Dan8267 says

dodgerfanjohn says

Exactly when did "liberals" decide to stop being tolerant?

Never

dodgerfanjohn says

The hatred by some of the left wing posters on this site is quite palpable. There is a STRONG intolerance of the ideas of others.

And there's your problem. You think "left" and "liberal" mean the same thing. They don't.

A liberal believes that people should be allowed to do whatever the fuck they want with absolutely no interference from government as long as they are not harming another or infringing upon another's rights (actually, these two things are the same).

I think this is probably the most correct answer in the entire thread.

27   zzyzzx   2012 Nov 26, 12:02am  

IMO, Liberals have never been tolerant and are really only pro-choice on abortion. On everything else they want the government to decide what's best for you.

28   BobbyS   2012 Nov 26, 12:03am  

tolerance have limits. even the most well-engineered bridge has to stop tolerating certain forces that cause it to collapse.

29   BobbyS   2012 Nov 26, 12:08am  

Privatize everything and "pay-as-you-go" seems the fairest way for goods to be distributed to those opposed to a progressive tax and believe everyone should be paying exactly for what they get. It seems the people against 'unfair' redistribution hate that some people benefit more than others for certain governmental services. They lament the diabetic milking medicaid while having to pay for his own health costs out of pocket. They (at least in theory should) lament a family needing 30 firefighters to put out a fire on their estate while never having needed the services of firefighters themselves. These 'fairists' seem to lean towards one of two directions.

In one direction, there are those okay with taxes, provided everyone pays the exact same rate in income tax or in consumption tax. They also HATE free-loading thieves and believe the redistribution of services must be absolutely equatable in their eyes, which usually means no welfare of any sort, no gov't subsidized health care, no tax deductions and most other programs. Basically, they are okay with taxes that provide some sort of defense from danger, enforces laws and pays for transportation (except public transportation because that's a waste of money and no one uses it and it's unamerican).

The other direction are the "pay-as-you-goers" hardcore libertarians or minarchists. They believe everything should be privatized with the government role to be to be absentee politicoids who ensure everything is privatized and the constitution is strictly adhered to. Their hierarchy of governance: Federal politicians, "Leave it up to the states to decide." State politicians, "Leave it up to the city/counties to decide". City/county politicians, "Leave it up to the districts/towns/lowest level of governance to decide." District/town/lowest level governance politicians, "leave it up to the most powerful and influential groups to decide."

30   kentm   2012 Nov 26, 1:06am  

Exactly when did "liberals" decide to stop being tolerant?

I suppose about the same time aggressive conservatives decided to become whiners...

Sorry dude, when I look back over the posts on this site I see a lot more aggression and vehemence from those who identify as conservatives. The angst you're expressing now is simply frustrate at not feeling "on top" anymore.

Who knows if you are or aren't anymore but maybe try to handle the feeling with a bit more dignity.

31   Bellingham Bill   2012 Nov 26, 1:59am  

dodgerfanjohn says

In otherwords he builds a strawman. I never argued about anyone abridging free speech.

vs:

"IMO it really won't be too long before we see drastic changes in what is considered freedom of speech. "

head asplode

32   mmmarvel   2012 Nov 26, 2:07am  

dodgerfanjohn says

As I remember, one of the core tennents of the "liberal" belief system was tolerance of others...in esence, an emphasis on the ideas:

33   Bellingham Bill   2012 Nov 26, 2:13am  

The problem with conservatism is that it attracts stupid people.

There's a core of intelligence within the movement, but it is overwhelmed by Teh Stupid.

As J.S. Mill said 100+ years ago:

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/feb/06/right-stupidity-spreads-enabled-polite-left

At this point I do want to point out that I have maybe encountered one or two intelligent things said by conservatives on this site. For one, I can remember Honest Abe going on about silver coinage prompting me to research what money actually was and supposed to be, and that opened my eyes to how I had just grown up with money around me and hadn't actually thought about what it really was all that much.

This is not about "toleration". Toleration implies accepting the somewhat unacceptable. Intelligent ideas need no "toleration"!

It's the stupid shit -- the lies, the bullshit unfounded slagging on the 'left' -- here that requires our toleration, and there's a lot of that. Be intelligent and we can all get along : )

34   Tenpoundbass   2012 Nov 26, 2:38am  

Bellingham Bill says

There's a core of intelligence within the movement, but it is overwhelmed by Teh Stupid.

It's "The" you maraughn.

35   rooemoore   2012 Nov 26, 2:43am  

Until an acceptable definition of "liberal" can be agreed to by those commenting, this is pretty much a pointless argument. For example, I have a real hard time with your premise that many of yesterday's liberals are today's libertarians.

If a more general interpretation of your thesis could be summarized as it seems that people are more entrenched in their own, intolerant ideology than ever before, I would say, "Welcome to the internet!"

36   Nobody   2012 Nov 26, 2:47am  

Am I reading right? I thought it was tea party and conservative who are very intolerant.

CaptainShuddup says

The problem with conservatism is that it attracts stupid people.

Yeah, that includes you.

37   Tenpoundbass   2012 Nov 26, 3:00am  

To days Liberals are either happy people that don't want to be marginalized by other happy people. So they want the other would be happy people to give up things that makes them the happiest the most. I'm talking to you, Warren Buffet.

Or unhappy people that don't want anyone happier than they are, so they spend a lot of time crafting up ways to crap on every ones parade.
"What do you mean I can't ride my "Big Al's gay boat ride" float in the St. Patrick's day parade?"

38   zzyzzx   2012 Nov 26, 3:03am  

Stalin and Mao were extremely intolerant.

39   Homeboy   2012 Nov 26, 3:53am  

dodgerfanjohn says

Homeboy posted "The simple act of disagreeing with another is not an abridgment of free speech".

In otherwords he builds a strawman. I never argued about anyone abridging free speech.

You wrote, in the very first post, that one of the core "tennents" [sic] of the liberal belief system was "very strong support of free speech." Then you wrote "But that has diminished a great deal". And later, you wrote, "IMO it really won't be too long before we see drastic changes in what is considered freedom of speech."

How can you now say that you "never argued about anyone abridging free speech"? Did someone steal your screenname?

40   Bellingham Bill   2012 Nov 26, 4:02am  

mmmarvel says

dodgerfanjohn says

As I remember, one of the core tennents of the "liberal" belief system was tolerance of others...in esence, an emphasis on the ideas:

like I said above, what I hate is all the stupidity. Southern rednecks, christian fundamentalists, and conservative republicans don't have the market cornered on stupidity, but it's close and there's certainly a massive nexus of the stuff to be found in these three communites -- which, to be honest here, largely overlap.

The Southern Baptist bible belt is in the South, and while there's a libertarian unabomber streak in the midwest, the midwest is also very much fundamentalist Christian -- "Christianist" actually -- these days.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/18/blue-states-red-states_n_1976768.html

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