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U.S. has among lowest taxes in the world


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2013 Jan 14, 7:29am   8,004 views  62 comments

by tovarichpeter   ➕follow (6)   💰tip   ignore  

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/01/how-low-are-us-taxes-compared-to-other-countries/267148/

U.S. Unlike most advanced economies, the U.S. don't supplement personal income taxes with a national sales tax, or value-added tax (VAT). Consumption taxes accounted for about a fifth of total U.S. revenue in 2008 (mostly at the state and local level) compared to an OECD average of 32 percent. In other words, the U.S. relies uniquely on personal tax rates to raise revenue -- and we have relatively low personal tax rates.

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1   leo707   2013 Jan 14, 7:38am  

Gotta starve the beast somehow.

2   lostand confused   2013 Jan 14, 7:39am  

Well the states have their own tax rates. Most states have sales tax and/or income tax, then you have property taxes, corporate taxes, business permits and taxes, fees for permits etc. etc. it is not the Federal only.

Yes, we are better than European nations, but we are not a low tax nation.

3   leo707   2013 Jan 14, 8:11am  

lostand confused says

Well the states have their own tax rates. Most states have sales tax and/or income tax, then you have property taxes, corporate taxes, business permits and taxes, fees for permits etc. etc. it is not the Federal only.

The data in the article covers all taxes not just Federal, "...taxes[both income and consumption] at all levels of government..."

lostand confused says

Yes, we are better than European nations, but we are not a low tax nation.

What you you then consider to be a "low tax nation?"

4   nope   2013 Jan 14, 8:17am  

Monaco.

5   New Renter   2013 Jan 14, 8:21am  

leo707 says

Gotta starve the beast somehow.

I'm hungry!

6   leo707   2013 Jan 14, 9:11am  

Kevin says

Monaco.

Oh, you can probably do better than that.

What are Somalia's taxes as a % of GDP?

The title of this thread should probably be,"U.S. has among lowest taxes in the developed world"

7   lostand confused   2013 Jan 14, 10:50am  

leo707 says

Kevin says



Monaco.


Oh, you can probably do better than that.


What are Somalia's taxes as a % of GDP?


The title of this thread should probably be,"U.S. has among lowest taxes in the developed world"

Well a lot of middle eastern nations have zero tax rates. Yes you don't have "freedom", but the chance of you being locked up in jail is much higher in the USA, than any nation on earth. Plus here, you carry your record with you.

Hong kong -though not a country-has very marginal tax rates and no taxes on dividends, capital gains etc.

Switzerland manages to have very low tax rates and still be very affluent.

Now the US, you don't get the bang for your buck-unless you are poor and not paying taxes and using up a whole lot of services. You don't get healthcare-unless you qualify for Medicaid. You have to buy your own-unlike many of the high tax countries.

States vary massively-. CA has a maximum of what 11%? TX , FL, NV and WA have no state income tax. But real estate taxes may vary-so I don't think the above list can accurately state the tax impact of the whole US-because it varies-by a lot.

8   nope   2013 Jan 14, 4:11pm  

leo707 says

Kevin says

Monaco.

Oh, you can probably do better than that.

What are Somalia's taxes as a % of GDP?

The title of this thread should probably be,"U.S. has among lowest taxes in the developed world"

Monaco was the only country I could think of off the top of my head that I would actually be wiling to live in that has a zero tax rate.

Of course, they only accomplish this via a quasi communist casino regime. So there's that. It turns out that state owned industry are the practical alternative to taxes, but dumbshit anarcho capitalists don't seem to recognize that.

lostand confused says

Well a lot of middle eastern nations have zero tax rates. Yes you don't have "freedom", but the chance of you being locked up in jail is much higher in the USA, than any nation on earth. Plus here, you carry your record with you.

Yeah, they're great countries as long as you don't criticize the government, say anything that could be interpreted as vaguely anti-islamic, or go out in public while female.

lostand confused says

Switzerland manages to have very low tax rates and still be very affluent.

Switzerland doesn't have low taxes by non-European standards. They have relatively low income taxes, but overall taxation is higher than the US.

9   lostand confused   2013 Jan 14, 8:32pm  

Kevin says

Yeah, they're great countries as long as you don't criticize the government, say
anything that could be interpreted as vaguely anti-islamic, or go out in public
while female

Not really. Only Saudi is like that. The UAE(Dubai, Abu Dhabi etc), Bahrain, Qatar are all very different. While you still have to follow cultural mores, it is quite free. yes there are lines you do not cross-but those lines are very clear-nobody goes around pretending to be the land of the free. Here in many states, you smoke a joint-they throw you in jail or you become President.

Kevin says

Switzerland doesn't have low taxes by non-European standards. They have
relatively low income taxes, but overall taxation is higher than the US.

Well it depends. The max Swiss tax rate is 11.5%, then of course there are the canton rates and a bunch of local taxes, that can vary your taxes from 22-42% of income. The same here-the max is now back to 39% and then of course you have state taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, etc etc.

So it really depends on where you live. The above charts are tax vs GDP, but really if you want to look at someone making 100k and what he pays in taxes-one has to look at the location. Then of course there are other factors. Someone making 100k in the mid-west can live like a king and still save a ton , not so in CA-where it is just average.

I think CA max tax rate is now 11%?

10   bob2356   2013 Jan 14, 8:40pm  

leo707 says

The data in the article covers all taxes not just Federal, "...taxes[both income and consumption] at all levels of government..."

I notice the data skips what other countries get for their tax dollars that the US taxpayer doesn't, like health care and college for starters. Pretty big omission. Really big omission. Like maybe 10-15% of gdp omission. Add that back in and it puts the US back up to pretty close to the head of the class.

leo707 says

What you you then consider to be a "low tax nation?"

Bahamas,Vanuatu,St Bart,Qatar,Oman, BVI,Cayman Islands,Bahrain,Turks and Caicos,Maldives,Brunei,Bermuda,Saudi Arabia,AUE,St Kitts and Nevis,Andorra, Azergijan are all at zero. Belarus,Switzerland,Bolivia,Ukraine,Mauritius,Bulgaria,HK,Czech,Montenegro,Lichtenstein,Lithuania,Russia, are below 15% max rate.
That's of without any war zone or totally dysfunctional countries included. I'd live in about half of these.

11   Peter P   2013 Jan 15, 12:41am  

Thus US has the best social mobility in the world. One can go from nothing to $1B in a few short years.

12   finehoe   2013 Jan 15, 1:42am  

Peter P says

Thus US has the best social mobility in the world. One can go from nothing to $1B in a few short years.

Uh, no.

"Empircal analyses estimate the United States is a comparitvely immobile society, that is, where on starts in the income distribution influences where one ends up to a greater degree than in several advanced economies"

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42400.pdf

13   Peter P   2013 Jan 15, 1:46am  

It is not about income distribution. It is about how high you can go.

14   Peter P   2013 Jan 15, 1:50am  

How many billionaires did Germany/Japan mint in the last ten years?

15   leo707   2013 Jan 15, 1:53am  

Kevin says

Monaco was the only country I could think of off the top of my head that I would actually be wiling to live in that has a zero tax rate.

No income tax but Monaco does have taxes (It think there taxes are around 18% of their GDP).

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mn.html
"The state has no income tax and low business taxes and thrives as a tax haven both for individuals who have established residence and for foreign companies that have set up businesses and offices. Monaco, however, is not a tax-free shelter; it charges nearly 20% value-added tax, collects stamp duties, and companies face a 33% tax on profits unless they can show that three-quarters of profits are generated within the principality."

16   lostand confused   2013 Jan 15, 2:02am  

Peter P says

Thus US has the best social mobility in the world. One can go from nothing to $1B in a few short years.

A few people becoming billionares is not social mobility. In Singapore, 11.4% of the population are millionares. much easier there for you to be the elite.

17   leo707   2013 Jan 15, 2:04am  

lostand confused says

Switzerland manages to have very low tax rates and still be very affluent.

Still in Switzerland they have higher taxes as a % of GDP than the US does.

lostand confused says

Hong kong -though not a country-has very marginal tax rates and no taxes on dividends, capital gains etc.

Is Hong Kong and example of low taxes?

Hong Kong taxes at 23.2% of GDP:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2221.html

About 4% less than the US.

As a % of GDP the US seems to be right between Hong Kong and Switzerland.

18   leo707   2013 Jan 15, 2:07am  

lostand confused says

Peter P says

Thus US has the best social mobility in the world. One can go from nothing to $1B in a few short years.

A few people becoming billionares is not social mobility. In Singapore, 11.4% of the population are millionares. much easier there for you to be the elite.

The only country in the developed world that has worse social mobility than the US is the UK.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?sq=mobility&st=cse&scp=1&pagewanted=all&_r=0

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/economy/news/2006/04/26/1917/understanding-mobility-in-america/

19   finehoe   2013 Jan 15, 2:13am  

Peter P says

It is about how high you can go.

No, it's about how many people have the opportunity to go higher. And in the US, that number is lower than just about any developed nation.

20   finehoe   2013 Jan 15, 2:15am  

Peter P says

How many billionaires did Germany/Japan mint in the last ten years?

Who cares? The answer to that will tell you nothing about the amount of social mobility in those countries.

21   leo707   2013 Jan 15, 2:28am  

bob2356 says

health care and college for starters. Pretty big omission. Really big omission. Like maybe 10-15% of gdp omission.

Yes, the taxes in many of those countries pay for college and health care, but college and health care in the US are not taxes. American health care in particular is primarily revenue for private companies. If some of those other countries use tax revenue to pay for school lunches for all kids should we in the US count the cost of sending our kids to school with a bag lunch as a tax?

The US chooses to spend a good portion of its taxes on military, should the other countries get a reduction on the chart because they don't choose to spend as much on military?

bob2356 says

Bahamas,Vanuatu,St Bart,Qatar,Oman, BVI,Cayman Islands,Bahrain,Turks and Caicos,Maldives,Brunei,Bermuda,Saudi Arabia,AUE,St Kitts and Nevis,Andorra, Azergijan are all at zero. Belarus,Switzerland,Bolivia,Ukraine,Mauritius,Bulgaria,HK,Czech,Montenegro,Lichtenstein,Lithuania,Russia, are below 15% max rate.

Yes, you do list many countries with low or no income taxes. However, we are not just talking about income taxes. Many--if not all-- of the countries you list as zero taxes actually have taxes(and other revenues) in forms other than an income tax.

Qatar for example has a corporate tax rate of 10%:
http://www.taxrates.cc/html/qatar-tax-rates.html

The government revenues are 35.4% of GDP:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2221.html

22   leo707   2013 Jan 15, 2:41am  

lostand confused says

States vary massively-. CA has a maximum of what 11%? TX , FL, NV and WA have no state income tax. But real estate taxes may vary-so I don't think the above list can accurately state the tax impact of the whole US-because it varies-by a lot.

Sure, the US is big and by moving around you can vary your tax burden to a degree, but the point of the list is to compare the overall accumulated taxes in the US to that of other countries.

Looking at the "best" state for overall taxation is different than country by country.

Here is a list of state-by-state revenues as % of GDP:
http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/compare_state_revenue_2013pF0c

California at 17.79% is pretty close to the combine revenue of all states at 16.34%.

23   bob2356   2013 Jan 15, 3:48am  

leo707 says

The US chooses to spend a good portion of its taxes on military, should the other countries get a reduction on the chart because they don't choose to spend as much on military?

Remind me what percentage of gdp people in other countries need to spend out of pocket for military that the government doesn't provide.

leo707 says

Yes, you do list many countries with low or no income taxes. However, we are not just talking about income taxes.

Actually we were. Personal tax rates are what the original post is all about.

24   edvard2   2013 Jan 15, 4:05am  

The irony here and one that Republicans will never seem to grasp is that looking at that list, a large number at or near the top are also countries that enjoy the highest standards of living in the world.

25   Peter P   2013 Jan 15, 4:14am  

What if we only look at the top 10%?

I think US will do quite well.

Besides, cramping in small homes is hardly a sign of high living standard.

Another indicator, aircraft ownership. I worked with people who own planes. Thry are regular senior engineers.

26   leo707   2013 Jan 15, 4:36am  

edvard2 says

The irony here and one that Republicans will never seem to grasp is that looking at that list, a large number at or near the top are also countries that enjoy the highest standards of living in the world.

Yep.

27   finehoe   2013 Jan 15, 4:40am  

Peter P says

What if we only look at the top 10%?

Then we are ignoring 90% of the population. What would that prove?

28   Peter P   2013 Jan 15, 4:59am  

finehoe says

Peter P says

What if we only look at the top 10%?

Then we are ignoring 90% of the population. What would that prove?

Anyone can have a realistic chance of joining the top 10%. Percentile membership is not etched on your forehead.

29   Peter P   2013 Jan 15, 5:01am  

Just not everyone at the same time. When everyone tries, all boats are lifted by the tide of growth.

30   leo707   2013 Jan 15, 5:28am  

Peter P says

finehoe says

Peter P says

What if we only look at the top 10%?

Then we are ignoring 90% of the population. What would that prove?

Anyone can have a realistic chance of joining the top 10%. Percentile membership is not etched on your forehead.

Most people may be able to realistically reach the top 10% or even top 5%, but not the top 1% or .01%, and the US is one of the most difficult places in the developed world to try and move up the class ladder.

31   tatupu70   2013 Jan 15, 5:30am  

Peter P says

Anyone can have a realistic chance of joining the top 10%. Percentile
membership is not etched on your forehead.

Of course--that's what powerball is for, right?

32   Peter P   2013 Jan 15, 5:32am  

Most of the successful people started with nothing. My two heroes are the prime examples: George Soros, Dennis Washington

33   leo707   2013 Jan 15, 5:33am  

tatupu70 says

Peter P says

Anyone can have a realistic chance of joining the top 10%. Percentile

membership is not etched on your forehead.

Of course--that's what powerball is for, right?

People tend to vastly underestimate the role that luck plays in any method of improving ones socioeconomic status.

34   Peter P   2013 Jan 15, 5:34am  

Unlike other countries, America is a country of becoming, not being. It is one of change and growth, not one of stagnancy and complacency.

35   leo707   2013 Jan 15, 5:35am  

Peter P says

Unlike other countries, America is a country of becoming, not being. It is one of change and growth, not one of stagnancy and complacency.

Interesting, yes that is the myth, but the facts show that America has almost the worst social mobility of any developed nation.

36   Peter P   2013 Jan 15, 5:36am  

leo707 says

tatupu70 says

Peter P says

Anyone can have a realistic chance of joining the top 10%. Percentile

membership is not etched on your forehead.

Of course--that's what powerball is for, right?

People tend to vastly underestimate the role that luck plays in any method of improving ones socioeconomic status.

Life is about managing luck. Much can be learned from options market makers.

37   Peter P   2013 Jan 15, 5:38am  

leo707 says

Peter P says

Unlike other countries, America is a country of becoming, not being. It is one of change and growth, not one of stagnancy and complacency.

Interesting, yes that is the myth, but the facts show that America has almost the worst social mobility of any developed nation.

It is a bad place not to take risks though.

38   Peter P   2013 Jan 15, 5:43am  

Also, for a lot of people, they drank the wrong cool aid like working hard for someone, getting a degree, diversify, etc.

39   leo707   2013 Jan 15, 5:49am  

Peter P says

leo707 says

Peter P says

Unlike other countries, America is a country of becoming, not being. It is one of change and growth, not one of stagnancy and complacency.

Interesting, yes that is the myth, but the facts show that America has almost the worst social mobility of any developed nation.

It is a bad place not to take risks though.

Most people in the US are not born in a position where they can afford to take risks. Most of the people on Forbes list--while they did not all start out as billionaires--were born into families that allowed them the opportunity to take risks.

40   leo707   2013 Jan 15, 5:50am  

Peter P says

leo707 says

tatupu70 says

Peter P says

Anyone can have a realistic chance of joining the top 10%. Percentile

membership is not etched on your forehead.

Of course--that's what powerball is for, right?

People tend to vastly underestimate the role that luck plays in any method of improving ones socioeconomic status.

Life is about managing luck. Much can be learned from options market makers.

People tend to vastly underestimate their ability to manage luck.

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