patrick.net

Republicans fear science because it cannot be faked. It's a self-correcting, transparent system that exposes all fraud and all mistakes. In other words, it cannot be used to fool people into bad policies that benefit the few at the expense of the many.

The article contains a too common misconception of history: "because these children could only be born through heterosexual sex, no model of marriage outside these biologically driven norms existed." Worryingly, Samuel Alito seemed to suffer the same ignorance when he claimed same-sex marriage is newer than cellular phones. In fact, same-sex marriage goes back millenia. The recent science of IVF has helped many families have children who would not otherwise have been able to do so, but gay couples have been having kids for a very long time. Back in the day, some women (including some lesbians) used turkey basters, and if they wanted to anonymize the successful donor they would mix multiple donations. Scientific progress has helped many people, but people did survive for a very long time before cellular phones.

chanakya4773 says

I think we better change the incest laws to embrace these couples as married people along with gay couples...do you guys see anything wrong?

Chan, your trolling with red herrings seems to have fooled someone into liking one of your comments, so I'll respond. The article below provides both an obvious answer to your question and an explanation why you are so interested in the topic:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hidden-motives/201012/is-incest-wrong

Archeologists have found additional reasons related to building larger tribal and societal units that depend on intermarriage between families rather than intramarriage within them, but your obsession seems best explained by Freud.

chanakya4773 says

KarlRoveIsScum says

Just because being Gay is unpleasant to you will never change the fact that it is socialy abhorrent to 100% of the planet population to GET WITH YOUR SIBLING!

So you are going to trample the "civil rights" of a weirdly wired couple because its not socially acceptable ?

Are you not fighting the same reasoning for advocating gay rights ?

He doesn't understand that ;)

chanakya4773 says

what about brother/sister relationship

Again the most obvious answer can be found in the article I linked to, especially when you consider that older brothers and uncles tend to be bigger and stronger than nieces and younger sisters, as you probably have considered given your obsession with the topic.

As I mentioned earlier, archeologists would add that larger tribal and societal structures depend on intermarriage between families rather than intramarriage within them. If you look at other predators closely related to humans, e.g. ape pods, you see one alpha male mounting all the females (and the beta males), and he drives off any rivals. That limits the size of the pod, which is why you don't see pods of a thousand or more apes all living together (except in fiction, e.g. Planet of the Apes). Obviously a larger group could become stronger and overpower a smaller pod, but keeping them united requires inter-marriage. This is how humans prevailed over Neanderthals, and how groups of humans that prohibit incest (e.g. America) prevailed over groups that didn't (e.g. the original Hawaiian islanders). Just as you are bigger and stronger than your little sister, the American group was bigger and stronger than the native Hawaiian group.

curious2 says

Again the most obvious answer can be found in the article I linked to, especially when you consider that older brothers and uncles tend to be bigger and stronger than nieces and younger sisters, as you probably have considered given your obsession with the topic.

That article only talks mainly about parent-child incest. This has nothing to do with my personal opinion or feelings about this, but there really is NO logical reason to support gay marriage while denying the same right to siblings or half-siblings.

By the way Sweden has been allowing marriages between half-siblings for a while and the country hasn't perished or changed in any way related to that since then - skal! ;)

mell says

there really is NO logical reason

I have already provided two. I will add a third, which I can't claim to be original because it's been written about widely: children who are subjected to incest, or even the apparent prospect of it, grow up in an overly sexualized environment that impairs their ability to develop trusting adult relationships. Since you refused to see the logical arguments I've already presented, it's obvious you don't want to see them, so I won't bother tracking down where this has already been published - you'll ignore it anyway.

chanakya4773 says

IDDQD says

KarlRoveIsScum says

really so 3% of the population wants the opportunity to marry a sibling?

i don't fucking think so.. SHOW ME !

They are afraid to come out because they fear of being attacked and ostracized by bigots.

LOL !

Touche ;)

KarlRoveIsScum says

chanakya4773 says

the only argument i can come up with is that its weird..but then people make that argument for gay marriage as well.

genetic abnormalities for one.

So you want to disallow non-related couples with the same genetic disability to get married and/or have children? That would surely be a cruel strike against a minority.

chanakya4773 says

esp given so much irrational exuberance over gay marriage rights .

You make it sound like there is a gay marriage rights bubble. I assure you that gay marriage rights can only go up. Gay marry now or forever be locked out!

chanakya4773

Here is science illuminating incest and why society won't embrace it for the rights of marriage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding

Simple explination: it prodcues unfit and unwell children. That comes with a large societal cost.

Here are examples of a multitude of strict to loose laws dealing with incest, to try and mitigate damage to overal social structures, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_incest

Why are you so hung up on incest? Hot for sister or cousin? (if mildly attracted to a cousin, you are likely wired normal: your genetic selfishness is just begin exhibited. If sister, you are in a minority whoes geneitc safegaurds aren't being tripped. Humans recognize when there is too much genetic similarity. Why? It's been bred into us! Think about that for a second … yeah.)

Can you find any factual, science based articles to show that a same sex family is detrimental to society? I'll help you out: you cannot. (if you want to use any 'word of God' arguments, I'll simply ask for you to prove God exists, and that's game set and match.)

If you want to argue for two sisters or two brothers to be married, sure, go for it. By the logic above there is no known cost . Incestual homosexual couples would be like what … less than a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the population. (shrug) That can be a tack on clause to the marriage equality and rights acts ... but it never will be ... because it simply doesn't exist in society in large enough numbers.

The true reason religions, socieites, and states are so hung up on homosexuality is because they want to breed more followers. "Growth is always good. Growth is power."

Most religions believe and preach that procreation is one of the most holy things one can do with ones life. This is no accident. What religions are most anti-homosexual? Are they larger older practicies or new smaller pracitices? Are they growing? Or receeding in popularity? Why is this? (see Mormons and Islam for nice examples)

Religions go through a life cycle if you will: when they are first being founded they are all inclusive, everyone in! Then when they are trying to grow they get fanatical, often proselytizing, and very anti-homosexula. Later as they age they become more inclusive again and work to focus on societal goods and adapt to the society that is most predominant for their followers.

(An aside: Which US states gave the right to vote to women first? Why?)

Some of the first ancient cities went through bouts of outlawing and legalizing homosexuality. Why? Population management was crucial and very difficult to deal with in ancient city formations. Too many people, packed in close together brings hosts of issues: disease, unemployment, filth, squalor.

Today though, there are so many children without families of their own there is no societal impretive to promote procreation. With adoption and the internationalization, how small the Earth is today for humans ... no reason to tie marriage to a procreative need.

The PRC may get very gay here in the not too distant future. I'm not joking.

The problem with the anti-homosexual crowd is that they have a horrible knwoldege of history and science. (Those old holy books aren't the only game in town, and far less infleuntial today. They are loosing ground every year. Evolve or perish. (yes, evolve, that was a carefully chosen term))

(Bonus snark: I comfort myself knowing there is a huge section of homophobe bro-dudes who like the movie 300. Little do they know, little do they know …)

chanakya4773 says

This topic is a room silencer ..esp given so much irrational exuberance over gay marriage rights .

most people will just look at you clueless as if a brick hit their head.

Nobody can technically/legally/logically answer this question....esp legally

For US law we citizens would say simply: Legally you are denying rights to a class of citizens that is enjoyed by another class of citizens. See any discrimination or civil rights law for the past 70 years as an example of the foundation of the legality of gay marriage.

(In case you haven't noticed it's already legal in many states. So legally I think that's a check mate. You want to go for logic or technicality next? Your move.)

"Daddy, what's a rimjob?"

"Bobby, rimjobs are for daddies who love each other very much."

Im starting to think the real problem is just a total degeneration of morals amongst the boomers.

In russia for instance, where such behavioral excesses were bred out in the last 20 years, gay marriage is simply not even a consideration.

this gay marraige debate is really a byproduct of ... yes you guessed it, the Stupid Generation aka The Boomers.

They can legalize eating your own feces in public, but that doesn't make it right. People can make all sorts of illogical arguments for why it's ok and ram it down your throat in the media. But, in the end, it'll always be disgusting and unnatural.

The Original Bankster says

Im starting to think the real problem is just a total degeneration of morals amongst the boomers.

In russia for instance, where such behavioral excesses were bred out in the last 20 years, gay marriage is simply not even a consideration.

this gay marraige debate is really a byproduct of ... yes you guessed it, the Stupid Generation aka The Boomers.

But that sounds like what our parents said about us and what their parents said about them when they were listening to the beatles and stones. There is a tendency to spot moral decay in society as we age ;)

mell says

The Original Bankster says

Im starting to think the real problem is just a total degeneration of morals amongst the boomers.

In russia for instance, where such behavioral excesses were bred out in the last 20 years, gay marriage is simply not even a consideration.

this gay marraige debate is really a byproduct of ... yes you guessed it, the Stupid Generation aka The Boomers.

But that sounds like what our parents said about us and what their parents said about them when they were listening to the beatles and stones. There is a tendency to spot moral decay in society as we age ;)

they used to stop black people from marrying white people which means that we should reconsider the legal status of incest.

some of the logical conclusions liberals come to is just stupendous.

The Original Bankster says

they used to stop black people from marrying white people which means that we should reconsider the legal status of incest.

some of the logical conclusions liberals come to is just stupendous.

There is no tendency towards incest today, in fact it is far less common due to the globalization and people leaving their home town/village. Reconsidering the value of certain laws is not moral decay. If you want to target moral decay running rampant these days you may want to look no further than the financial industry or the NAR, not how 15 year olds dress (although that is an understandable concern for parents).

The Original Bankster says

Im starting to think the real problem is just a total degeneration of morals amongst the boomers.

In russia for instance, where such behavioral excesses were bred out in the last 20 years, gay marriage is simply not even a consideration.

this gay marraige debate is really a byproduct of ... yes you guessed it, the Stupid Generation aka The Boomers.

I think this moral decline started in the late 60's early 70's. Too many drugs, too many excesses, and no reason to do anything productive. Entire generation spent their life doing drugs, drinking, and seeking pleasure. Bored people with nothing better to do and no imagination. Way too prosperous for our own good.

And at some point we decided that every single person out there needs to make it and pass on their genes. I remember back in the day there was this tv show where they would marry off retards, those that were born retarded, and acted as if that was some sort of humanitarian mission. So our gene pool got a little mixed with all kinds of things that evolution wouldn't support otherwise. And we are here today wondering where all the weirdos come from.

FortWayne says

And we are here today wondering where all the weirdos come from.

Again Russia is going to destroy us.

China is not nearly as much of a threat as Russia. Russian have very strong values and identity and America is totally susceptible to manipulation. There is really nothing any one individual can do about it because our system is built on democratic liberal values, and it really only takes a few years to first corrupt the people, then exploiting the system's finances only takes a short time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fQoGMtE0EY

FortWayne says

And we are here today wondering where all the weirdos come from.

We've 'outsmarted' ourselves.

The Original Bankster says

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fQoGMtE0EY

That's one scary video.

FortWayne says

The Original Bankster says

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fQoGMtE0EY

That's one scary video.

he has a number of them on Youtube. A really brilliant speaker who describes the evolution of American culture perfectly. And he said all this stuff decades ago.

The Original Bankster says

"Daddy, what's a rimjob?"

http://www.youtube.com/embed/P8XJ_Z-QSBI

FortWayne says

Too many drugs, too many excesses, and no reason to do anything productive. Entire generation spent their life doing drugs, drinking, and seeking pleasure. Bored people with nothing better to do and no imagination. Way too prosperous for our own good.

The poor in this country are certainly not "way too prosperous", and I would submit that drug and alcohol use in poor neighborhoods is largely the result of trying to dull the pain of poverty.

Now as for why rich, famous dumb-asses use drugs, that I don't get. If you're fucking Denise Richards, live in a mansion, and never have to work for a living, why do you need to roll eight-balls? Actually, I have no idea what that even means, but I know it has something to do with heavy narcotics.

Dan8267 says

Now as for why rich, famous dumb-asses use drugs, that I don't get. If you're fucking Denise Richards, live in a mansion, and never have to work for a living, why do you need to roll eight-balls? Actually, I have no idea what that even means, but I know it has something to do with heavy narcotics.

because most of these people's actual lives are nothing like how we see them. Anytime we get a glimpse inside these people we get to see they are severely damaged and highly dependent people who make for more manageable assets for the entertainment industry.

The Original Bankster says

Dan8267 says

Now as for why rich, famous dumb-asses use drugs, that I don't get. If you're fucking Denise Richards, live in a mansion, and never have to work for a living, why do you need to roll eight-balls? Actually, I have no idea what that even means, but I know it has something to do with heavy narcotics.

because most of these people's actual lives are nothing like how we see them. Anytime we get a glimpse inside these people we get to see they are severely damaged and highly dependent people who make for more manageable assets for the entertainment industry.

That I'd agree with, but I don't think incest or gay marriage are a threat to this society (no matter if you endorse it or no not). I do think though that a nation that focuses more on these topics rather than on sound money policy and enforcing the rule of law does have a problem. I'd gladly give up my right to marry (it should be a personal contract anyways) for seeing Jon Corzine prosecuted and convicted of fraud and locked up in jail. That would be a start ;)

as bezmenov describes, it's part of the process of demoralization. Clearly things like Gay Marriage should not be a top priority right now and anyone who has half a brain can see it's being used as a distraction.

The Original Bankster says

it's being used as a distraction

...by Republicans who sell war all over the world (including the drug war at home) all charged to deficit spending by saying they're going to "defend" you and your kids from those scary "other" people, who are supposedly attacking you somehow. The sad thing is that so many people have fallen for that distraction. Hopefully when DoMA ends and becomes a distant memory, and gay couples being married is as familiar as interracial couples being married (e.g. Clarence Thomas and his wife, and the President's parents) Republicans won't be able to use it as a distraction anymore.

And before anyone accuses me of "partisanship" because I mentioned the name of a certain major party, see my comments on Obamacare, I'm no captive of either major party.

curious2 says

I'm no captive of either major party.

but you are captive to an ideology that claims that any biological impulse is permissible. You were told in your indoctrination center(that you were told was a school to be proud of) that this is a form of freedom, however it was actually an agenda to break down the structure of America. Seems liberals and gay marriage proponents can't see the forest for the trees.

Personally I'm tiring of trying to challenge every step in this progression towards complete moral debauchery and instead I simply wait for the collapse and put my eggs elsewhere. Those who can't see this for what it is will no doubt be left holding the shit bag.

Your nonsense about "moral decline" is bigotry masquerading as morality. If you want to talk about moral decline, look at CEOs looting the corporations with which they've been entrusted. Look at the medical-industrial complex, and read David Goldhill's searing Atlantic article "How American Health Care Killed My Father". There are real examples of immorality, quit hiding your own by pointing your finger lamely at gay couples as if they were somehow not on your arrogant and falsely claimed moral plateau. Bigotry is no substitute for morality, see Dan's earlier threads on this topic.

Rome rose as a republic with freedom of religion and same-sex marriage. It later became an empire, then converted to Christianity and banned same-sex marriage, and then later fell. Look at the Muslim world too, and watch Neil deGrasse Tyson's lecture on Muslim history: they prospered for three centuries during which they were open to ideas, then they closed themselves off in a world of bigotry and fell into poverty. It happens over and over. If America falls, it will be the fault of bigoted morons being distracted from the looting and massacre by the various industrial complexes that have subverted the government into their own tool.

LOL - where's Pat Robertson with his hurricane forecasts! And where was he when the 2012 Republican convention got disrupted by a hurricane, and San Francisco got a rare double rainbow during the Democratic convention! Truly, he should have seen these signs of miracle and wonder, dropped the wife, and got gay married.

chanakya4773 says

why did you leave that ?

because I answered your questions pages ago, but you denied that there were any differences despite the fact that I listed several, and eventually I concluded you're a troll who believes he's found a clever way to disguise his real motive for attacking gay marriage and supporting incest. You call it a conversation stopper, it's because you make a fool of yourself and people don't want to waste time talking to you anymore. You might become the first PatNet user I ever put on Ignore.

any time Liberals are attacked they try and label their opponents as religious fundamentalists.

I'm not religious. I think the bible is quackery. I also think most of what LGBT is promoting is perverted and sick.

The Original Bankster says

I'm not religious.

Then what is the basis for your intense feelings about gay couples? And why does "The Original Bankster's website" link to two words that I won't quote here but that seem very important to your vocabulary?

Colombia Professor defends Incest as being the same as homosexuality:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1339108/David-Epstein-Homosexuals-want-INCEST-different.html

what these gay rights advocates are doing is brokering power with a significant voting bloc(LGBT) while seriously degrading our legal concept of marriage. The changes will be irreversible and damaging in the extreme.

curious2 says

intense feelings about gay couples?

disagreeing with you is 'intense feelings'?

wth is wrong with liberals? why are they so filled with hate and intolerance?

really getting tired of these assholes.