patrick.net

He would have to show some evidence that it was sent. It is open and shut unless you get a judge who is a landlord.

What constitutes as evidence in cases like this: concrete things like certified mail with return receipt or some handyman lying that he did drop the letter in the mail would suffice?

PS. The address I gave him was my work address where we have a dedicated mail room, so there is always somebody to sign for a letter requiring signature.

I did it and won. My landlord was an idiot though. He sent me a letter with deductions that I clearly wasn't responsible for from the lease agreement. I did have a billion pictures moving out though. Evidence is the most important thing you can have on your side.

theoakman says

I did it and won. My landlord was an idiot though. He sent me a letter with deductions that I clearly wasn't responsible for from the lease agreement. I did have a billion pictures moving out though. Evidence is the most important thing you can have on your side.

I assume your landlord did make the 21-day deadline? If so, my case is slightly different: he did not claim any damage until I asked for my deposit in full several months later. Naturally, after receiving my demand letter he came up with all sorts of "damage" and even managed to send the letter in such way as to reliably reach me (which somehow he wasn't able to do when he was allegedly sending the first one). I suppose I need to prepare to argue against validity of his deductions in case the judge decides to believe that the first letter was somehow "lost", but will it even go there if the judge decides to believe that the first letter was indeed sent? After all, I'm arguing that I'm entitled to full deposit because he didn't make the deadline. I never mentioned charges for bogus "damages" in my filing.

robertoaribas says

depends on your state law

Bing! Bing! I think we have a winner!!!

Yeah, I think donjumpsuit is on to something. I have always found that with tenants a 'little carrot along with the threat of a big ass stick' goes a long way. The same should work with a landlord.

In this case I'd write him a polite, but strongly worded letter indicating you feel you are entitled to the deposit (all of it or whatever you think was fair). If you broke a door or scratched the fridge, own up to it and deduct something reasonable. But then indicate that you are familiar with your rights as a tenant (that scares the crap out of us landlords) as well as his obligations as a landlord, and will pursue all available legal options under CA state law for compensation. Give him like 14 business days to comply and provide the deposit. Send it certified mail.

Only once did I not give any of the deposit back, on a girl who moved in a boyfriend without permission and he kicked in a door and broke the door frame. Threw them out and no deposit returned.

gbenson says

Only once did I not give any of the deposit back, on a girl who moved in a
boyfriend without permission and he kicked in a door and broke the door frame.
Threw them out and no deposit returned.

Did you evict them (w/ police force) or what?

robertoaribas says

depends on your state law. In AZ, I send a certified letter. if it doesn't reach the tenant, not my problem after that.

The bigger issue usually is tenants that leave with no forwarding address. Then, I send a certified letter to the old address, with "please forward" on it. if it comes back to me, I put it in my files.

I'm in California and it's the same here: letter to address provided in 30-day notice or - if such address is not provided or letter is undeliverable - to the address of the rental unit.

gbenson says

In this case I'd write him a polite, but strongly worded letter indicating you feel you are entitled to the deposit (all of it or whatever you think was fair). If you broke a door or scratched the fridge, own up to it and deduct something reasonable. But then indicate that you are familiar with your rights as a tenant (that scares the crap out of us landlords) as well as his obligations as a landlord, and will pursue all available legal options under CA state law for compensation. Give him like 14 business days to comply and provide the deposit. Send it certified mail.

This is exactly what I did and his response was basically "it's too bad you didn't receive the letter, but you owe me more than the deposit anyway". I already filed with small claim court and the summons have been already served.

donjumpsuit says

So why don't you wave these facts in front of your previous landlord and see how fast he ponies up that deposit. I heard filing these in small claims court is a no brainer.

These facts were in my demand letter and apparently he wasn't impressed. I really don't understand why he is going through the court and risking losing 3x the deposit instead of just offering to keep a reasonable cleaning fee and returning the rest. It's not like he has a hope to dodge collection with couple of properties to his name. What makes him so sure he can win this thing? The only possible way I see is to somehow obtain (fabricate) the evidence that mythical first letter was delivered.

So we had our day in court. No decision yet - it takes up to a month to get one.

It didn't feel like the court was slanted in favor of a tenant, quite opposite: it felt like I was the defendant. The POS landlord lied through his teeth not even bothering to present a sliver of evidence of sending the letter in time. I was right to expect that the trial would get beyond meeting the deadline. Judge immediately concentrated on deductions and their supposed validity, even though the law clearly says that it shouldn't matter if deadline is not met.

Anyhow, I was prepared and I think I put up pretty good fight, exposing their lies using documentation. Will see how it turns out. Hope the judge was paying attention (he looked pretty bored).

PS. I found out (sadly, couple days after the court hearing) that the landlord is a registered sex offender and was somewhat of a local celebrity in the 80s. Apparently the guy was accused of raping his housemaid, went through a series of trails and appeals, jumped bail, was hiding overseas, returned when faced with sale of collateral properties and was finally sentenced for 6 years in prison. Even worse, he used to be a realtor. But you probably already guessed that. ;)

PPS. Patrick, how come you don't have a section for landlord reviews? I would gladly submit a juicy one.

Mobi says

Did you evict them (w/ police force) or what?

Told her I'd give her the full deposit back and waive a half months rent if she left before the end of the month and left the place in good condition. I put that into writing with her.

She left, and then I pointed out the door was still broken, so it wasn't in good condition. Since she had violated the terms of our agreement, I kept the deposit and sent her a bill for the balance of the rent.

Words to live by: "Hold out a carrot, and when the donkey closes his eyes to think about how good the carrot will taste, knock him out with the carrot."

gbenson says

Told her I'd give her the full deposit back and waive a half months rent if she left before the end of the month and left the place in good condition. I put that into writing with her.

She left, and then I pointed out the door was still broken, so it wasn't in good condition. Since she had violated the terms of our agreement, I kept the deposit and sent her a bill for the balance of the rent.

This is where it gets murky. If you're in California that document THEORETICALLY wouldn't be good enough: Civil Code 1950.5 does require written estimate of any necessary cleaning/repairs identified during initial inspection. If the door was already broken when you were signing your document but wasn't specifically mentioned as deficiency to be corrected, she could argue that you were satisfied with the condition and what "good condition" meant was really for it to be no worse that at the moment of signing. How these things play out in court - I have no idea.

2 month later still no decision.

UPDATE: I was afforded full amount of deposit plus costs.

Winner

Goran_K says

Winner

Not so fast: the SOB has appealed.

Congrats and Kudos for taking your issue to court.

Having researched the same issue in California 3 years ago, small claims court is about the only option. Tenants are encouraged to take their claims to court I read.

For me, at the time, I had a relatively new job and it was very, very busy. I was happy the air conditioning worked in my new apartment without any run around and never did take the issue to court, although I did send a certified letter at the time as I was so angry at the way I was treated.

Straw Man says

It didn't feel like the court was slanted in favor of a tenant, quite opposite: it felt like I was the defendant.

Was this Oakland? That's exactly how I felt when I sued my landlord. My case was different because I was trying to break my lease after finding out the place was completely defective and the landlord was insane. We called out the code enforcement on her and they made us move out so she could fix the issues (fire hazards and so on). The judge asked us why we didn't just rent a hotel room for the months it took her to fix the place and make it legal (we have a dog and we both work from home), even though the law says I don't owe any rent on a place that is not even a legal rental unit. She counter sued and cried to the judge about how we left and didn't pay the utilities so she had to come home to a dark house in "Oakland" (this was in the Piedmont hills) and we weren't even renting the main house, just an attached, illegal in-law. She apparently had us paying her house utilities too. It was a nightmare that included hundreds of spiders falling on my head while I tried to work --truly a nightmare. Glad it only lasted about 30 days.

Even though we lost our deposit and the money we invested in new flooring, at least the judge didn't award her anything on her countersuit. We ended up in a brand new cottage in Walnut Creek. We should have just walked away and stayed out of court.

rufita11 says

Was this Oakland?

Nope, San Mateo.

UPDATE: He now offers to pay half "to save us both time and money" if I agree not to proceed with the appeal he filed.

Fool, appealed. Then asked to settle, ask for written settlement.

This says you can now bring a Lawyer.
http://www.courts.ca.gov/1115.htm
and you can screw him good:
http://www.sanmateocourt.org/court_divisions/small_claims/how_to_appeal_judgement.php

So, contact a lawyer, and ask does he think he can get the $1000? if so, he can have anything above the original deposit.

egads101 says

you could reply that "while you are certain you will win again on appeal, you'll take 10% off to settle it today..." or whatever it is worth to you to be done.

Certainly a sensible thing to try, but looks like a lawyer is already involved on the other side. I suspect that 10% won't be enough to feed the shark.

just someone says

So, contact a lawyer,

I will. Any referrals?

egads101 says

just someone says

So, contact a lawyer, and ask does he think he can get the $1000? if so, he can have anything above the original deposit.

you guys are smoking crack if you think any lawyer worth a damn will take this...

You can find one to take the case easily, but not for $1000. The retainer alone is going to be more than the deposit was.

I would reject the settlement, no counter. Lets see if this guy actually wants to pay for the attorney fees to take it to civil court AND risk the 3x penalty if it goes to trial....

If he doesn't immediately drop the case, I would hit him with a few discovery requests, depositions, etc. A bunch of stuff to jack his attorney fees.

I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice. I am just stating what I would do.

control point says

You can find one to take the case easily, but not for $1000. The retainer alone is going to be more than the deposit was.

I would reject the settlement, no counter. Lets see if this guy actually wants to pay for the attorney fees to take it to civil court AND risk the 3x penalty if it goes to trial....

If he doesn't immediately drop the case, I would hit him with a few discovery requests, depositions, etc. A bunch of stuff to jack his attorney fees.

I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice. I am just stating what I would do.

We're talking about $3000 deposit here. The original lawsuit was for $9000.

egads101 says

just someone says

So, contact a lawyer, and ask does he think he can get the $1000? if so, he can have anything above the original deposit.

you guys are smoking crack if you think any lawyer worth a damn will take this...

$1000 was an example from the court website. My lawsuit was for $9000.

If half actually gets your deposit back, just take it and walk away. Your time is being sucked pursuing this. Your time is your life. I wouldn't give anymore of my life than I have to. Lesson learned.

control point says

I would reject the settlement, no counter. Lets see if this guy actually wants to pay for the attorney fees to take it to civil court AND risk the 3x penalty if it goes to trial....

If he doesn't immediately drop the case, I would hit him with a few discovery requests, depositions, etc. A bunch of stuff to jack his attorney fees.

Interesting. I was considering either countering or not answering at all. This is a third option to think about.

rufita11 says

If half actually gets your deposit back, just take it and walk away.

The half is half of the deposit. I was awarded full deposit plus (trivial) filing costs.

rufita11 says

Your time is being sucked pursuing this. Your time is your life. I wouldn't give anymore of my life than I have to.

I'm not enjoying any of this, but walking away doesn't feel right either. Especially after playing nice for 2 years and being treated as shit in response.

I get philosophical about the whole deal after losing thousands of dollars on vet bills from 3 dog attacks, one bad landlord, and a lawyer who kept my unused retainer and claims she can't find any record of it. I could spend all of my time suing people or I can be thankful that I still have my family intact and a safe place to live. I've received blessings way beyond what has been stolen from me though. And I choose not to waste any more time in court unless it's a life-changing amount of money.

The laws around deposits need to be changed. Just brainstorming here, but maybe require all deposits to be kept in an escrow account with a third-party auditor who makes move-in and move-out inspections with on the spot deductions breakdown and refund at the time of walk through. No waiting on a check allowed.

Don't let some jerk out there take your money. This is a very standard case, landlords lose these all the time if they fail to pay what they have to, giving other land lords a bad name.

Their word is not good enough "i sent the letter". They have to prove it. I've seen those cases plenty. If they didn't do what they are supposed to do, it's a clear case win for you.

FortWayne says

Don't let some jerk out there take your money. This is a very standard case, landlords lose these all the time if they fail to pay what they have to, giving other land lords a bad name.

Their word is not good enough "i sent the letter". They have to prove it. I've seen those cases plenty.

He already lost once. What bothers me with the appeal process is that it's effectively a trial de novo with real lawyers allowed.

Straw Man says

rufita11 says

Your time is being sucked pursuing this. Your time is your life. I wouldn't give anymore of my life than I have to.

I'm not enjoying any of this, but walking away doesn't feel right either. Especially after playing nice for 2 years and being treated as shit in response.

don't walk away. There is no better feeling than winning these battles.

The best way to avoid hassles is to:

1. Take pictures where the date shows on the picture and itemize and notify your landlord of any problems when you move in.

2. Hire a good cleaning agency and/or take lots of pictures when you leave. And keep your receipts. I went to small claims court once and witnessed a case where the renter had pictures and back up witnesses from the cleaning agency and the judge was not nice to the landlord.

3. Use up all your deposits in the form of rent in the last month or 2 that you rent so the landlord doesn't owe you any money. But make sure that everything is as good or better than when you moved in.

It's a pain in the ass to go through legal hassles and very few people would take you to court if there's a chance they won't get anything in return.

Some landlords are jerks and they get by because they cause more problems than you have time and money to fight and they know it.

However, all but 2 of my landlords has either returned my money or let me use it in place of rent. As long as we agreed to it and on what condition they expected the place to be left in.

The 2 landlords who took my money. One was a drunk manager and I had moved out of state. I even painted the place before I left and he kept the money and sent a note saying he had to repaint - I know he used it to buy booze. This guy was such a bad drunk that he got cited in front of our apartment building after he fell out of his car while he was driving up our street - the police had followed him home. I lost $100 but it wasn't convenient for me to fight it. The 2nd landlord was having financial problems and so was I so I didn't have the time or the money to fight it. That was about $100 also (these happened about 40 years ago).

I guess you have to look at everything in life as a trade-off. One instance is this where seeking justice and recompense is fine as long as it doesn't significantly undermine your quality of life. Questions I ask myself are: is this causing me to miss out on time with family and friends, am I making my relationships less gratifying for myself and those around me, am I missing out on exercise or just general enjoyment of my day. Sometimes cutting your losses and moving on is better for your general health and the health of those in your life. Justice is fine, but at what cost to you?

I bet he is just trying to drag it out. There is nothing he can do to win, just being a jerk as usual. I wonder if you can also have him pay for wasting your time with frivolous appeals.

After all, if he is placing economic burden on you with these BS appeals, he should pay for your time.

I don't think he'll bring a lawyer. No one is going to pay a lawyer thousands of dollars just to get a fraction of that back, you know what I mean? Nor can a lawyer do anything, law is very clear here.

FortWayne says

I don't think he'll bring a lawyer. No one is going to pay a lawyer thousands of dollars just to get a fraction of that back, you know what I mean? Nor can a lawyer do anything, law is very clear here.

You might be on to something here: the letter with the offer wasn't sent by his lawyer even though he mentioned that he has one. Maybe he has an imaginary lawyer. =))