patrick.net

The fact is that Obama is every bit as evil as Bush was. The actions he has taken are exactly what Bush would have done in a third term. No objective person could hold the current administration free of guilt while holding the prior one not guilty or vice-versa.

Yes, the Democrats have been hypocrites for embracing the abusive powers the Republicans sought while Bush was in office, just like the Republicans have been hypocrites for whining about executive power abuses for Obama doing exactly what the Republicans did during the Bush administration.

Pointing out the hypocrisy of one side isn't an advocation of the other.

why do Democrats let Obama get away with the same curbing of liberties for which they blasted Bush

What is he talking about? The Patriot Act got a whole bunch of democrat votes. When did they "blast Bush"?

In fact, I believe only one Senator voted against the Patriot Act in 2001, whereas I think about 18 Senators voted against its reauthorization in 2011. So actually, Democrats supported BUSH more than they supported Obama with regard to the Patriot Act. How is that "hypocritical"?

So what Freedoms have you lost since the Patriot Act in 2001 ?

fact is no one lost anything except some terrorist fanatics.
fact is your day to day life hasnt changed
fact is you will be complaining 5-10 years from now how you expect some vast Right Wing conspiracy exists to snare your freedoms.

So go ahead lists how your freedoms have changed ?

thomaswong.1986 says

So go ahead lists how your freedoms have changed ?

That's not a very compelling argument. Because the slide down that slippery slope goes quite a ways before it actually impacts most individuals in the general populace.

Does monitoring all of my communications really affect me ? No. Does gradually changing the internet to be less open, giving greater control to some, and less to others, perceptibly change my freedoms ? No.

As for the rights that people accused of terrorism or associated with suspected terrorists ? It's true that this doesn't affect us individually now. But who knows what changes occur over coming decades . There might be a time in the future where the line between protester and terrorist gets blurred by an overly fascist government.

I'm not arguing that the govt has crossed some line. Those arguments are for legal experts in in the ACLU and elsewhere. I'm just arguing that changes can be very important to our general freedom, regardless of how they affect us individually, now.

thomaswong.1986 says

So go ahead lists how your freedoms have changed ?

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

There are different versions of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

Here is Dick Cheney championing NSA surveillence. Funny thing I am seeing is, a lot of dems agreeing with Dick Cheney-because now it is Obama doing it-so it must be right.
Perhaps Cheney can run for President in 2016 and he will have bipartisan support-now that a ton of dems support his policies .

http://news.yahoo.com/rare-interview-dick-cheney-champions-nsa-surveillance-100827532.html

the libracrats war on Christ and on good and on normal and on the Bill or Rights and on the very soul of America ... well, maybe the bitter clingers have had enough. Repubs are just as nervoue as DEMONcrats because it (the next few years of friction) is all about concervative values and all the things that piss of the pukes on the left. I'd vote to disband the union at this time, and I would also place military at the border and start to remove all of those here illegally, as well as any of their spawn under 30 years old. All drugs would be legal, but drug testing mandatory for all public paid jobs and welfare. And driving while on drugs would be nude public flogging. All of those on death row would be hung by the neck until dead ASAP. It's a start.

I appreciate Bernie Sanders for his role as the Far Left Foil.

However, in the grand scheme of things this whole NSA business is a damp squib. The biggest problem is a bunch of OVERPAID CONTRACTORS swimming in a pool full of manure, trying to fish out gold nuggets. Why was Snowden getting $200K a year? Because we spend too much time on shit like this which is mostly worthless, then when fenced in agency TRIES to justify the gold-plated boondoggle by saying it KINDA-SORTA-MAYBE stopped a terrorist attack somewhere. I'm sorry I just don't buy that most of this is worth the billions spent.

Here's a solution to the concern that Teabaggers should enjoy, defund the NSA and let's see how we do without it.

Well, it is Obama offering cuts on SS-even when republicans haven't asked for it.

sbh says

They'll just clamor for a tax cut for the 1%, rather than for funding SS and Medicare.

No, I'm dead serious.

DEFUND THE NSA! You can separate serious civil libertarians from the shit-stirrers. Many current opponents of this "situation" just worry about WHOSE hands it will be in, not the actual capability.

Stop fucking around, and kill it! Let's find out if it's essential to American national security or not.

Me, I couldn't give a shit that the NSA listened in on my e-life. Quite frankly no tinfoil-hat-wearing conspiracy nut in the US has much to worry about. I feel pretty certain the occasional off-color comment or fetishism elicits anything other than a mild EWWWW before they move on to bigger fish.

Corporate execs ought to be worried that contractors are potentially fishing through their garbage, and might sell nuggets on the side for extra dough.

Vicente says

No, I'm dead serious.

DEFUND THE NSA! You can separate serious civil libertarians from the shit-stirrers. Many current opponents of this "situation" just worry about WHOSE hands it will be in, not the actual capability.

Stop fucking around, and kill it! Let's find out if it's essential to American national security or not.

Yep.. stopping the NSA will sure stop them Commie Chinese Reds from hacking into everyones data Individual, Business and Govt... fact is The Chinese REDs know more about Vicente than the US Govt.. how ironic.. and now Vicente doesnt want NSA to after after the Chinese espionage, cause he is afraid his privacy and freedoms will get trashed.

thomaswong.1986 says

fact is The Chinese REDs know more about Vicente than the US Govt

Fact? Mr Controller of an international company-don't you ever get tired of passing opinion as fact. Do you live in some sort of alternative reality??

sbh says

How's that Christian thing workin' out for ya? What's next on your slippery slope......female circumcision?.......burning of homosexuals in the town square?

There's no slippery slope you Jackass, name one single instance of female circumcision or burning homosexuals in the town square in America under the name of Christianity.
You're why conservatives say Liberals are a mental condition.

All politicians are hypocrites. We elect them based on what they say, not what they'll ever do.

Bap33 says

the libracrats war on Christ and on good and on normal and on the Bill or Rights and on the very soul of America

The fact that you would even think that liberals are on the side of evil and conservatives on the side of good shows how incredibly much Christianity fucks up a person's moral compass. Liberals have been on the side of good and conservatives (especially Southerners) on the side of evil in every single battle between good and evil in America since the Revolution. Let's go down the list.

1. Genocide
Bleeding heart liberals wanted equal rights for Native Americans. Conservatives wanted to slaughter the indigenous population and steal their land.

2. Slavery
Liberals were called abolitionists. Conservatives wanted to expand slavery into the Western territories and used the Bible, both testaments, to support slavery.

3. Voting rights for blacks
Liberals wanted equal rights for all regardless of race. Conservatives wanted to outlaw the black vote. When that failed, they tried Jim Crow laws. When that failed, poll taxes. When that failed, the War on Drugs. When that failed, voter ID laws. To this day, conservatives try to prevent African American citizens from voting by any means possible.

4. Voting rights for women
Liberals wanted equal rights for all regardless of gender. Conservatives wanted women kept in their place.

5. Segregation
Liberals wanted equal rights for all, including educational rights and access to public services. Conservatives said this would break down the social order.

6. Interracial marriage
Liberals wanted equal rights for all, including marriage rights, regardless of race. Conservatives called it an abomination and said, "What's next, marrying a dog?".

7. Same sex marriage
Liberals wanted equal rights for all, including marriage rights, regardless of gender. Conservatives called it an abomination and said, "What's next, marrying a dog?".

Notice a pattern here, Bap? When the hell, exactly, were the conservatives ever, ever on the side of good?

Conservatives are morally inferior to liberals. That is precisely why they are conservatives. Only liberals, those who believe in the dignity and rights of all persons, can honestly claim the moral high ground. The truly disgusting thing about conservatives is that they compound their vileness shown above with the hypocrisy of claiming moral superiority, as if genocide, slavery, and lynching were good, Christian, moral behavior.

Example of "Southern Hospitality"

Dan8267 says

2. Slavery

Liberals were called abolitionists. Conservatives wanted to expand slavery into the Western territories and used the Bible, both testaments, to support slavery.

Umm, it's the religious folks that were against slavery the most, not liberals.

thomaswong.1986 says

Vicente doesnt want NSA to after after the Chinese espionage, cause he is afraid his privacy and freedoms will get trashed.

I am not SCARED of anything.

You want the NSA to do the job it does, then OWN it and all consequences. Or get CONGRESS to overhaul it, who voted for the current state of things. What I see relentlessly from the tinfoil hat crowd is all about OBAMA! Is this about Obama, or about LIBERTY?

...those revelations, captivating as they are, have been partial —they primarily focus on one government agency and on the surveillance end of intelligence work, purportedly done in the interest of national security. What has received less attention is the fact that most intelligence work today is not carried out by government agencies but by private intelligence firms and that much of that work involves another common aspect of intelligence work: deception. That is, it is involved not just with the concealment of reality, but with the manufacture of it.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/14/the-real-war-on-reality/?ref=opinion

zzyzzx says

Dan8267 says

2. Slavery

Liberals were called abolitionists. Conservatives wanted to expand slavery into the Western territories and used the Bible, both testaments, to support slavery.

Umm, it's the religious folks that were against slavery the most, not liberals.

Bullshit. One word: Baptists. Please challenge me on this. I've got 8 billions quotes and pictures I'd love an excuse to plaster all over this thread.

Plus, you're thinking about religious liberals, not religious conservatives. Don't confuse the terms liberal-conservative with secular-religious. Those two axises are independent, and Bap was attacking liberalism.

Evidence is clear - the talk of conservatives about "freedom" is a ruse - first thing they would do if they achieved unilateral power would be to categorize various categories of people as subhuman and implement tyrannical hell. The sooner that most people can see it, the better.

Who cares about all of the Dead Liberals, there's not one single Liberal alive today, and thems there are the FACTS!

CaptainShuddup says

there's not one single Liberal alive today, and thems there are the FACTS!

I beg to differ. *points to self*

At the end of the day, all anyone needs to do is simply see the definitions of liberal and conservative. Conservative- or "Conservatism" is basically about keeping things the same as they are or were. As I wrote this, the hands on the clock have moved and I have grown about 2 minutes older. Hence my point was made already. Conservatives are basically fighting for an outcome they will never-ever win. At best they can slow things down. But progress happens regardless.

Dan,
No conservative finds any sense in the things liberals do .. for example, liberals minds dream up things like affirmitive action, where by a business owner or entity is compelled by threat of law to hire someone other-than-the-best person for the job based solely on an arbitrary physical trait. No regard to provability (prove oneself to be part of the protected class), percentage (how much of me is part of that protected class and what is the minimum requirement), or any other quantitative facts are included with the "feel good" notion of forcing owners to do something that is against a healthy business model. That is just one example, but most have the same sorry excuse for existance ... it is a way for some politically motivated liberal to feel good for forcing their will upon another (a double wammy if the other is a concervative Christian), and also to make sure there is someone out there below them in class/stature that requires their liberal driven "aide".

affirmitive action is based in racism, sexism, and lots of other isms. Conservatives cant support something so racist and sexist as affirmitive action.... and not that white folks are the minoity, there is a big hustle on the left to change the lingo ... seen it this weekend, from "minoity" based programs to "class" based programs ... yep, class warfare ala-Lord Obama coming to a main street near you. The whole liberal model went to poop when productive people became the minority.

sbh says

I admire the intent to conserve what is unique and virtuous about America. I see our Constitution as a Liberal document: it bans theocracy and attempts to codify the rights of the individual as the basis for the common good. Retaining this uniqueness is important and I commend true conservatives whenever they actually do it. Largely they don't do it.

And to me the irony of this is that while a lot of conservatives like to come off as being the only group that is truly patriotic and true to the founding fathers, well for starters the founding fathers were very liberal for their time.

In fact, in many conservative circles of that period, the desire was to stay in the colonies under British rule. The liberals of the day wanted to become independent. Hence the horrible irony here in that had conservatives had their way we might still be under British rule.

Many of the founding fathers were actually Deists, which means they did not specify any particular religion, but rather the formal belief in a sort of supreme being. Most were also strictly against any religious organization within government and hence why it clearly states this in the constitution. Many conservatives today seem to not acknowledge this.

Another irony is that once we did gain independence the conservatives of the day actually wanted the US to have a king- as in Washington would've been "King George". Again- what a horribly ironic thing.

So in the end and as mentioned, conservatism in the US is totally impractical.

conservative .. for me .. means moral and just, natural and spiritual, rugged individualism and protection of the weak.

liberal - for me - means anti-conservative.

I believe the original post was a typo. It should read hypothetical democrats

CaptainShuddup says

there's not one single Liberal alive today, and thems there are the FACTS!

Man you should phone that story into Fox News!

I'd be very glad to hear an end to their overusage of the term.

Bap33 says

conservative .. for me .. means moral and just, natural and spiritual, rugged individualism and protection of the weak.

liberal - for me - means anti-conservative.

No- that's not the definition. Conservative very much means to stay the same. It has zero to do with morality nor does it have anything to do with individualism. I say that because conservatives seem hell-bent in many ways to do exactly as they are told. They then go out and try to tell others that they too need to think exactly as they do. Its because they are so damned sure that what they were told is the absolute truth and there is no such thing as straying from their beliefs.

The thing is that if you look over American history, a huge number of the things that changed were also issues that were obstructed every step of the way by conservatives, who merely slowed down progress. Ironically many of these issues had to do with individual freedoms, which is ironic given that if I were to entertain the notion that conservatives were about freedom and individuality, then by their attempts to stop the very issues that encourages those same qualities shows the stark opposite.

no edward, I said what it means to me. Period. You dont get to choose my expressions. If it helps you deal with it, imagine expression choice to be how the word gay has been used to describe deviant sexual behavior between males by the liberals, while the conservatives were happy having gay mean happy and queer mean deviant sexual behavior between males. The work better for ya? I know you must be pro choice, and pro free expression, so what I said stands. Right? Wait, are you accepting that right and wrong exist??? that will get your liberal card pulled.

Bap33 says

No conservative finds any sense in the things liberals do .. for example, liberals minds dream up things like affirmitive action

No liberal supports Affirmative Action as it violates the 14th Amendment's equal protection clause. Once again, you are confusing the arbitrary American political left with liberalism. If you haven't listened to how I explained the difference between these two groups over a hundred times already, you're probably not going to listen this time.

More importantly, you have completely ignored, and thus tacitly accepted, the fact that conservatives have been on the side of evil in every battle between good and evil on American soil including genocide, slavery, voting rights for blacks, voting rights for women, segregation, and interracial marriage. Meanwhile, we liberals have been on the side of good for each of these issues.

Conservatives love to pretend their moral and beat their chests about it, but history shows that conservatives are the most morally bankrupt people in our nation's history. No matter how much you white wash or ignore history, you can't wipe away all those stains.

So if you want to talk about morality, we liberals have a one thousand batting average while you conservatives are batting zero.

When you conservatives start admitting the moral vileness of your history, we liberals might start letting you live down that history. But to this date, you guys just keep double-down on that evil.

Dan,
word games? really? (said in the voice of my 10 year old daughter)

Conservatives strive for morality.
Liberals hate that morality exists, but depend on it for an existance.

Liberals are anti-Conservatives ... even with your definitions we agree. lol

Bap33 says

Conservatives strive for morality.

Liberals hate that morality exists, but depend on it for an existance.

History contradicts all that you say. Who am I to believe, you or history?

the right to vote should be based on tax paying ability. The more you pay in tax, the more votes you get. (relax, that's how it is now) Race, sex, and other stuff that cant be proven at the ballot box need not apply.

We should vote on the back of our tax return. No more issues with either once that starts.

Bap33 says

the right to vote should be based on tax paying ability.

Yeah, that's a moral basis for society. Especially when those who are rich, often through the use of slavery, use their extra votes to ensure that they and only they can continue to be rich, and those they and only they get the majority of votes. See the perpetual cycle?

I wonder what the real Captain America would think about that idea. Or the real Captain Jesus for that matter.

slavery is what happened when victorious tribes stopped killing the losers, and instead held them alive and used their labor to improve life. Manpower = food in all of mankind until the evil internal combustion engine and evil use of fuel. Controlled manpower made it possible for more people to grow more food and the population explosion that happened as a result of slavery is also in history books. Sure, life as a slave must have sucked, but it was just a little better than being killed in battle. Every slave brought to the British colony in America was gathered up and sold by other negro tribes.

From the believe it or not catagoy: I come from slaves too, but we were slaves by choice, just to get the chance to come to America, and before that we were slaves to the Spanish crown, and before that we were slaves of the muslims. You do know that the negro/arabs that invaded the western mediteranian came to the Azores and left their mark ... dont you? They came, they raped, they got drunk, we sank their boats. We used rock in slings and hay sicles, and attacked their blades and kicked their butts. We then boiled them in whale fat, dried out the bodies, and hung their bodies on poles in the rocks on Sao George or Sao Miguel (not sure). We did one at a time so each saw the next. Story goes there was 500 or so invaders, and 300+ arabs that got boiled, and the last few hundred were allowed to live to be slaves to help rebuild the crap they messed up. When those arabs started their pirate crap a few years later, they avoided the Azores.

Sure, later the spanish kicked out butts, but it took lots of boats and lots of soldiers. The spanish kicked the aztec butts too. Few boats and few soldiers ... just germs.

Dan8267 says

Especially when those who are rich, often through the use of slavery, use their
extra votes to ensure that they and only they can continue to be rich, and those
they and only they get the majority of votes.

I wrote that as a humorous point .. I think that IS how it is .. ofcourse that is not right!! geeze man. One man, one vote, flat tax based on percent of increase/worth. And we need to go back to the 50 year jubilee.

end the minimum wage.
end public paid schooling.(good buy teacher union, DoE, stuff like that)
end all welfare/wealth transfers.

Bap33 says

slavery is what happened when

You aren't really trying to justify the conservative south's use of slavery, are you?

Just admit that throughout American history, liberals have been the good guys and conservatives the bad guys. Then get over your pride and join the good side.

Bap33 says

I wrote that as a humorous point

My bad. However, your philosophies are so wacky that it's hard to tell when you're joking.

sbh says

When today's conservative (ala Bap33) speaks of morality and spirituality he
speaks within the context of southern evangelical doctrine.

says who? you? puh-leeeze

Dan8267 says

You aren't really trying to justify the conservative south's use of slavery,
are you?

you liked history a second ago ... just playing along