patrick.net

I bet none of those gun deaths were caused by a concealed carry citizen.
Gun crimes are committed by criminals.
Criminals must be shot.

All I want is an app that will redirect any bullets fired at me back towards the head of the person firing them.

Oh, and tasers, too.

No theres not ways to reduce gun violence.

Thats the fallacy of the entire gun control argument. The assumption is that gun violence will end because there will be no guns.

Thats false on two levels -

1.) It assumes that violence won't occur in equal amounts via other weapons.

2.) It assumes that people who are criminals will not have access to guns.

I don't think I need to address #1. It should be a absolute given. #2. Most guns that criminals have are illegally obtained and have the serial numbers scratched off. This ability to illegally obtain guns absolutely would not be curtailed by gun control laws, even ones completely eliminating gun ownership*. Or perhaps you can convince my why drugs and other illegal items are so easy to get in the US but guns would not be.

*There is one way to actually eliminate illegal guns...or get pretty close. Thats to make gun possession a 99 year minimum jail sentence. But that won't happen because...well, people are corrupt.

Moderate Infidel says

I bet none of those gun deaths were caused by a concealed carry citizen.

Gun crimes are committed by criminals.

Criminals must be shot.

Google and VPC says you are wrong ...
http://www.vpc.org/press/1202ccw.htm

Yes, crimes are committed by criminals.

Don't you think a stance by which all criminals need to be shot is a bit extreme? I know of very few nations, including those who use the death penalty much more freely than the US, with such a view.

Rew says

Don't you think a stance by which all criminals need to be shot is a bit extreme? I know of very few nations, including those who use the death penalty much more freely than the US, with such a view.

People who take such a view incorrectly assume that they will be the ones deciding who is a criminal and who is not. The fact is that practically every American commits at least a few crimes a week without even knowing it. Our legal system over-criminalizes and then selectively enforces the law so that at any time the state can call any person a criminal at its complete discretion.

At the same time, Senators are given a free pass to do things that would be felonies carrying minimum sentences over 20 years for the rest of us.

dodgerfanjohn says

Thats the fallacy of the entire gun control argument. The assumption is that gun violence will end because there will be no guns.

The argument for zero gun ownership wasn't made. This is about education, regulation, and responsible use/ownership.

The shoot them before they shoot you stance is complete testosterone fantasy land bull crap. It's so rare as to be negligibly measurable outside of LEOs.

Per #1) I'd like to replace every gun with a spork. Spork could still apply lethal force but is far less able to deal death in the quantities of a modern firearm. Point here is, though I know that is impossible, increasing small arm proliferation is not an answer to lower violence by firearms ... quite the opposite. Statistically odds go up, not down.

As to gaining access to controlled substances and arms : please work to obtain a modern grenade and compare experience to obtain a semi-auto rifle. Scarcity of object and control/regulation on object are true barriers to obtaining them by a criminal or otherwise.

It's really amazing how many times one can get attacked and falsely accused - to the point that a firearm becomes an absolute necessity.

Consider the killer George Zimmerman:

- In 2005 Zimmerman is arrested for “resisting officer with violence” and “battery of law enforcement officer.” But this is a lie: in his application to the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office Citizens Law Enforcement Academy he wrote that “the officer assaulted me first”.

- In the same year, his fiance gets a restraining order on the grounds of domestic violence. Another lie: Zimmerman takes out a restraining order on her, stating correctly that she is a threat to him.

- George Zimmerman’s cousin accused him of molesting her beginning at at age 6, and it allegedly went on for several years. She said that her parents found out and confronted Zimmerman and that he admitted to the molestation. This is obviously false.

Given a world in which people attack you over and over, and then race baiters claim that you attacked them, can't these dirty liberals understand why a man has to carry a piece?

Rew says

The argument for zero gun ownership wasn't made. This is about education, regulation, and responsible use/ownership.

That already exists. Attempt to buy a gun and report back. Rew says

The shoot them before they shoot you stance is complete testosterone fantasy land bull crap. It's so rare as to be negligibly measurable outside of LEOs.

Nice straw man. Argue against a point I never made.

Rew says

Per #1) I'd like to replace every gun with a spork. Spork could still apply lethal force but is far less able to deal death in the quantities of a modern firearm. Point here is, though I know that is impossible, increasing small arm proliferation is not an answer to lower violence by firearms ... quite the opposite. Statistically odds go up, not down.

And take a ridiculous point of view. Unless you can prevent bombings, poisonous gas, pitchforks, baseball bats, knives, halberds, and honestly whatever, you will not decrease violence based deaths.

Rew says

As to gaining access to controlled substances and arms : please work to obtain a modern grenade and compare experience to obtain a semi-auto rifle. Scarcity of object and control/regulation on object are true barriers to obtaining them by a criminal or otherwise.

Red herring. I'm not going out to shoot anyone so my ability to illegally obtain weapons is not a concern here. Its the criminals ability to illegally obtain a weapon. As such, an illegal gun is by definition scarce. Yet criminals are able to obtain them, and quite easily by what I saw during my eight years spend in a court room.

Rew says

Moderate Infidel says

I bet none of those gun deaths were caused by a concealed carry citizen.

Gun crimes are committed by criminals.

Criminals must be shot.

Google and VPC says you are wrong ...

http://www.vpc.org/press/1202ccw.htm

Yes, crimes are committed by criminals.

Don't you think a stance by which all criminals need to be shot is a bit extreme? I know of very few nations, including those who use the death penalty much more freely than the US, with such a view.

3/4 of those were already convicted so they were criminals. Thanks for making my argument for me.

Moderate Infidel says

Rew says

Moderate Infidel says

I bet none of those gun deaths were caused by a concealed carry citizen.

Gun crimes are committed by criminals.

Criminals must be shot.

Google and VPC says you are wrong ...

http://www.vpc.org/press/1202ccw.htm

Yes, crimes are committed by criminals.

Don't you think a stance by which all criminals need to be shot is a bit extreme? I know of very few nations, including those who use the death penalty much more freely than the US, with such a view.

3/4 of those were already convicted so they were criminals. Thanks for making my argument for me.

Right, they are now criminals, because they were legal CC gun owners, who then used that firearm in a crime, crossing the line into criminality.

Look to the Android platform for that program. You won't find it in the Communist Closed System Mind Control CensorshipCity AppleStore....

Dan8267 says

All I want is an app that will redirect any bullets fired at me back towards the head of the person firing them.

Oh, and tasers, too.

Rew says

Right, they are now criminals, because they were legal CC gun owners, who then used that firearm in a crime, crossing the line into criminality.

You're right, I read that wrong. I will make the argument though that these people are a small % of legal concealed carry citizens and that they would have carried concealed anyways whether it was illegal or not because they were criminals.

Fantasyland.
with 300 million guns out there, we are well past the point of eliminating guns, or trading them in for other stuff.
More realistic solutions need to be put forth, such as longer sentences for illegal gun use that will make people think twice before carrying...

Rew says

Per #1) I'd like to replace every gun with a spork.

The last Iraq war would be a large example. And contrary to Cheney's frequent statements, we had been attacked by terrorists after 9/11, i.e., the anthrax attacks, which served to further whip up the terrified sheeple into a pro-war and pro-homeland security state. And the perpetrators have never been found. Things that make you go hmmmm....

dodgerfanjohn says

That already exists. Attempt to buy a gun and report back.

A multiple choice test able to be filled out by the semi-literate, a demonstration of pointing the firearm away from people, a felony background check, and 24hours later ... firearm is yours. Last time I did this was two years ago. The point is this is so much easier than getting a drivers license it is shocking. The legal and personal responsibilities that go with gun ownership are far greater in my opinion as well.

dodgerfanjohn says

The shoot them before they shoot you stance is complete testosterone fantasy land bull crap. It's so rare as to be negligibly measurable outside of LEOs.

Nice straw man. Argue against a point I never made.

Apologies. I assumed you were going to make the more guns = more safety argument. Thanks for the additional clarity. Instead you are saying ...

dodgerfanjohn says

And take a ridiculous point of view. Unless you can prevent bombings, poisonous gas, pitchforks, baseball bats, knives, halberds, and honestly whatever, you will not decrease violence based deaths.

... the general desire and propensity for humans to commit murder/violence is a constant given other factors: specifically choice of murder weapon.

I'm pretty sure there is good criminologist and psychological data to show otherwise. To commit murder with a knife is a much more personal attack, close, messy, than by firearm. A firearm has a relatively low barrier of expertise of use to cause significant amounts of harm. Some recent would be bombers have failed at their attempts due to failures of bomb-craft.

Firearms are point squeeze and done. They are shockingly simple to use. They are also fraught with opportunities of negligence and mishandling. They are concealable. They can kill multiple people in a very short amount of time. They can be used to strike at great range.

So, putting that all together, you have something which is very unique: concealable, can kill multiple targets in short time, allows distance, low barrier of expertise in use, psychologically more distant and people more willing to use.

(Also, pitchforks and halberds are clearly less ridiculous than sporks. I give the spark the edge actually from the concealable factor.)

dodgerfanjohn says

Its the criminals ability to illegally obtain a weapon. As such, an illegal gun is by definition scarce. Yet criminals are able to obtain them, and quite easily by what I saw during my eight years spend in a court room.

I think I'll need more on your definition of what an "illegal gun" is. You mean one with its serial scratched off or one with outlawed features? Criminals are able to obtain firearms because they are prevalent and typically not well kept in modern America today.

Compare and contrast to say: tanks, strike helicopters, nuclear weapons, bio-weapons, flame throwers. All magnitudes more difficult to obtain and harder to use as weapons.

The mistakes and consequences of well meaning gun owners who are negligent in storage or use, or those who are law abiding now and then cross the threshold into criminality with their firearm, are a legitimate BIG problem.

Moderate Infidel says

You're right, I read that wrong. I will make the argument though that these people are a small % of legal concealed carry citizens and that they would have carried concealed anyways whether it was illegal or not because they were criminals.

But we made it so simple for them to get that firearm (legally or illegally) and now they have a huge capacity to do lots of harm.

Rew says

A multiple choice test able to be filled out by the semi-literate, a demonstration of pointing the firearm away from people, a felony background check, and 24hours later ... firearm is yours. Last time I did this was two years ago. The point is this is so much easier than getting a drivers license it is shocking. The legal and personal responsibilities that go with gun ownership are far greater in my opinion as well

Obviously you haven't done this in CA.

LOL Turners Outdoorsman in Reseda and I forget what its called in Newhall...but its a gun club there....both business' actively attempted to discourage me to buy a gun.

Needless to say theres significant hoops to jump through.

Rew says

But we made it so simple for them to get that firearm (legally or illegally) and now they have a huge capacity to do lots of harm.

It's not a huge capacity. Those are tiny numbers of deaths.

dodgerfanjohn says

Rew says

A multiple choice test able to be filled out by the semi-literate, a demonstration of pointing the firearm away from people, a felony background check, and 24hours later ... firearm is yours. Last time I did this was two years ago. The point is this is so much easier than getting a drivers license it is shocking. The legal and personal responsibilities that go with gun ownership are far greater in my opinion as well

Obviously you haven't done this in CA.

LOL Turners Outdoorsman in Reseda and I forget what its called in Newhall...but its a gun club there....both business' actively attempted to discourage me to buy a gun.

Needless to say theres significant hoops to jump through.

This was in San Jose from US Firearms Co. : http://www.usfirearmsco.com/

The "hoops" are so trivial. Take laughable "test", demonstrate you know which is the business end, hand over 3 dollars for bureaucratic paperwork processing, sign papers, wait 24 hours (cool off), take possession.

Moderate Infidel says

Rew says

But we made it so simple for them to get that firearm (legally or illegally) and now they have a huge capacity to do lots of harm.

It's not a huge capacity. Those are tiny numbers of deaths.

For legal CC holders, true, but they are a contributor to the overall whole ...

31,076 homicides, suicides, and unintentional shootings (equivalent of more than 85 deaths each day, and more than 3 deaths each hour). 73,505 Americans were treated in hospital emergency departments for non-fatal gunshot wounds. Firearms were the third-leading cause of injury-related deaths nationwide following poisoning and motor vehicle accidents. (These stats from the Nat’l Ctr. for Injury Prevention & Control, U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for the year 2010.)

... The bigger factor is probably legal gun owners who have their firearms stolen and used in a crime. There is so much opposition by the gun lobby to keep regulation and oversight extremely light on firearms (The Brady Law's have only been in effect since 1994).

I think it is ridiculous. It should be at-least as well regulated as motor vehicle ownership.

"According to the FBI, there were 12,996 murders in the US in 2010, of which 8,775 were caused by firearms."

No they were not caused by firearms. Firearms don't shoot themselves.

FortWayne says

"According to the FBI, there were 12,996 murders in the US in 2010, of which 8,775 were caused by firearms."

No they were not caused by firearms. Firearms don't shoot themselves.

Firearms were the cause of death. Correct.
Just like cars don't drive themselves.

I guess if you wanted to be super pedantic about it:
"Death was caused by lethal gunshot, fired by a firearm, in which a person mechanically influenced the firearm to shoot the bullet into the victim."

Point is we regulate dangerous things, especially those which have high potential of misuse and harm to others. Personal responsibility is key, but people are fallible.

How is the waiting period for firearm purchases calculated?
The waiting period for the purchase or transfer of a firearm is ten (10) 24-hour periods from the date and time of the submission of the DROS information to the DOJ.

That's for California

Rew says

Firearms were the cause of death. Correct.

Just like cars don't drive themselves.

I guess if you wanted to be super pedantic about it:

"Death was caused by lethal gunshot, fired by a firearm, in which a person mechanically influenced the firearm to shoot the bullet into the victim."

Point is we regulate dangerous things, especially those which have high potential of misuse and harm to others. Personal responsibility is key, but people are fallible.

Men can misuse women, should women be regulated and banned too? Address morality, not the tool of choice.

FortWayne says

Rew says

Firearms were the cause of death. Correct.

Just like cars don't drive themselves.

I guess if you wanted to be super pedantic about it:

"Death was caused by lethal gunshot, fired by a firearm, in which a person mechanically influenced the firearm to shoot the bullet into the victim."

Point is we regulate dangerous things, especially those which have high potential of misuse and harm to others. Personal responsibility is key, but people are fallible.

Men can misuse women, should women be regulated and banned too? Address morality, not the tool of choice.

They are 'regulated'. :) Women come with a full set of personal rights and the law to protect them.

Your analogy misses a little. You would want regulation for a man, using a woman, against another man. I like a good drama now and then, but personal relationship dynamics probably don't need government oversight.

dodgerfanjohn says

How is the waiting period for firearm purchases calculated?

The waiting period for the purchase or transfer of a firearm is ten (10) 24-hour periods from the date and time of the submission of the DROS information to the DOJ.

That's for California

Oh, 10 days, sorry. It just wasn't a huge factor in my purchase. I had special ordered what I wanted. The 'wait time' was absorbed in delivery.

I don't think their should be drive through "guns & ammo". I understand the intent of a cool off period. Per the legislation arriving at 10 days, it is just as arbitrary as 1. I'm ok with it and understand it is imperfect. It wasn't a huge hardship or loop to jump through as part of getting the new firearm.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

That will discipline its use and limit casual carry.

!!! :) hahaha

FortWayne says

Men can misuse women, should women be regulated and banned too? Address morality, not the tool of choice.

I think we should apply Texas abortion standards to firearms.

Some "reasonable" steps should be taken, and the side with the most votes gets to define reasonable and the rest will sit down and shut up about it or be put in irons.

My state just recently went to conceal/carry which makes for really interesting stories of misuse. Recently, in Milwaukee two guys were blasting away on the freeway, the one guy shot all four of the other guys tires out.

And, yeah the story about the guy in Texas who shot his escort in the neck (she died 7 months later), for taking his $150 and not having sex with him, he was defending his $150 which was his property, he's free to go.

Rew says

dodgerfanjohn says

How is the waiting period for firearm purchases calculated?

The waiting period for the purchase or transfer of a firearm is ten (10) 24-hour periods from the date and time of the submission of the DROS information to the DOJ.

That's for California

Oh, 10 days, sorry. It just wasn't a huge factor in my purchase. I had special ordered what I wanted. The 'wait time' was absorbed in delivery.

I don't think their should be drive through "guns & ammo". I understand the intent of a cool off period. Per the legislation arriving at 10 days, it is just as arbitrary as 1. I'm ok with it and understand it is imperfect. It wasn't a huge hardship or loop to jump through as part of getting the new firearm.

Oh I get it now.

Nice troll thread. You got me...really had me going.

Good show ole chap!

Guns in Wisconsin are made out of cheese.

dodgerfanjohn says

Oh I get it now.

Nice troll thread. You got me...really had me going.

Good show ole chap!

What? I don't understand how this is a troll thread? I concede ... you win ... it's 10 days not 24 hours. Sorry ... ? .... *hug* ... ?

I don't think a 10 day wait is equal to "a bunch of hoops". There are far too few good hoops in what it takes to become a gun owner.

Straw Man says

Rew says

Criminals are able to obtain firearms because they are prevalent and typically not well kept in modern America today.

Criminals had no trouble obtaining firearms in USSR where civilian ownership of handguns was outright banned in late 20s and there were not much of them in civilian hands prior to that anyway. Possession of a single pistol part or cartridge was a guaranteed prison term. Yet every criminal worth his salt was rocking Nagant, TT, Makarov or sawed-off Mosin. So if 70 years of totalitarian rule didn't do much to deny criminals the access to guns, how long will it take in the US with 300-400 mil of guns in civvie hands?

Were firearms prevalent and not well kept in the USSR at this time? What are the current sensible gun ownership laws in place in Russia today?

I'm not advocating a ban.

Moderate Infidel says

Guns in Wisconsin are made out of cheese.

And can still turn you right into Swiss ...

;)

Ah, the Swiss, now there is a heavily armed society.

Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18]

Moderate Infidel says

Ah, the Swiss, now there is a heavily armed society.

Seems that the Germans also have a gun culture..so whats missing here ?

We need to import more Swiss and Germans?

Moderate Infidel says

Ah, the Swiss, now there is a heavily armed society.

This is because the Swiss gun culture and ownership is based in principals of responsibility and defense. I'd argue they follow our 2nd amendment better than we do.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state...

Instead our emphasis much more on the "bear arms" portion.

If we trained our youth more like the Swiss (mandatory firearms training by 20), universal gun registration, universal background checks, guns cannot be carried or loaded except if you are part of a militia in training, ammunition heavily regulated to the point where it typically isn't stored at home, sure ... the US could have a very low rate of gun violence too.

America's current gun culture is rooted in 'Grand Theft Auto', 'Modern Warfare 2', Hollywood action flicks, and the belief that any day the black helicopters come and we will have to fight our way through the zombie hordes.

I think the Swiss model is a bit extreme to work in the US, but mandatory training I'd be for.

You are to give us all your firearms.