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1   Dan8267   2014 Jan 2, 11:16pm  

I've been saying that currency debasement kills the poor and the middle class for years, but everyone has been brainwashed into thinking that "inflation" is good. This rich have won because the poor and the middle class are stupid.

2   driscoll63   2014 Jan 2, 11:22pm  

"because the poor and the middle class are stupid" That's like saying water is wet. Why do you think they are poor and middle class? Too much time on play station and in front of a TV screen.

3   Y   2014 Jan 2, 11:44pm  

So you agree with foxman that we should separate nations by IQ?

Dan8267 says

I've been saying that currency debasement kills the poor and the middle class for years, but everyone has been brainwashed into thinking that "inflation" is good. This rich have won because the poor and the middle class are stupid.

4   Dan8267   2014 Jan 2, 11:47pm  

driscoll63 says

"because the poor and the middle class are stupid" That's like saying water is wet. Why do you think they are poor and middle class? Too much time on play station and in front of a TV screen.

Astrophysicists are damn smart, but they are still middle class. Intelligence does not translate into riches in a capitalistic economy.

5   Dan8267   2014 Jan 2, 11:48pm  

SoftShell says

So you agree with foxman that we should separate nations by IQ?

I would have gone with raising the intelligence of the population, but whatever floats your boat. Let's turn the middle half of this country into Jesusland. Just make sure Jesusland does not get to have arms or a military.

6   tatupu70   2014 Jan 3, 10:28pm  

Dan8267 says

I've been saying that currency debasement kills the poor and the middle class for years, but everyone has been brainwashed into thinking that "inflation" is good. This rich have won because the poor and the middle class are stupid.

You've been wrong for years then. Currency debasement is a distraction. There is plenty of money. Productivity gains are undisputed.

We simply have a distribution problem. Median wages should be easily growing faster than inflation.

Put simply, there's no reason to think that a stable currency would have any effect on real wages...

7   Bellingham Bill   2014 Jan 4, 1:11am  

tatupu70 says

Median wages should be easily growing faster than inflation.

99% of our economic understanding does not allow that rising real wages are always negated by rising land values in the end.

The day I made this graph:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=qBB

was a real aha moment for me.

If rents didn't inflate as they have, inflation wouldn't be that big a deal. But since housing is everyone's dominant life expense, rent inflation is a very big deal.

The apartment I rented in 1991 for $700 now rents for $1800.
The apartment I rented in 2006 for $1320 now rents for $2000.

However, Tokyo has not seen this inflation at all . . . rents have gone down since 1995!

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/JPNCPIHOUMINMEI

8   Dan8267   2014 Jan 4, 2:21am  

tatupu70 says

We simply have a distribution problem.

Currency debasement is one of the main causes of the distribution problem.

9   Bellingham Bill   2014 Jan 4, 2:48am  

Dan8267 says

Currency debasement is one of the main causes of the distribution problem.

'specially after Prop 13 locked costs to 1980 + 2% pa.

The apartment I rented in 1991 now has a $35,000 Prop 13 valuation, yielding all of ~$60/mo in property tax to the county (rent is pushing $2000/mo).

The Georgist thesis doesn't require inflation (after all, the hard-money late 19th century was largely deflationary) but it doesn't hurt!

10   anonymous   2014 Jan 4, 3:01am  

tatupu70 says

Dan8267 says

I've been saying that currency debasement kills the poor and the middle class for years, but everyone has been brainwashed into thinking that "inflation" is good. This rich have won because the poor and the middle class are stupid.

You've been wrong for years then. Currency debasement is a distraction. There is plenty of money. Productivity gains are undisputed.

We simply have a distribution problem. Median wages should be easily growing faster than inflation.

Put simply, there's no reason to think that a stable currency would have any effect on real wages...

Where you get it wrong is in blaming taxes and govenment policy. Occams razor, working class get paid by the hour, income earners from higher strata, get compensated with salary. So while working class wages have been left behind, its not because of bad policy, rather by design of their compensation packages

11   Vicente   2014 Jan 4, 3:04am  

errc says

income earners from higher strata, get compensated with salary.

Walton family how much you think each one makes in salary? Most income is from dividends, special deals on stock options and so forth. They avoid estate taxes and perpetuate dynastic wealth, something allegedly anathema in "meritocratic America".

13   tatupu70   2014 Jan 4, 4:10am  

errc says

Where you get it wrong is in blaming taxes and govenment policy.

I understand that the government doesn't CAUSE the inequality, but government is the only entity that can fix it through good policy.

14   Heraclitusstudent   2014 Jan 4, 4:30am  

tatupu70 says

We simply have a distribution problem. Median wages should be easily growing faster than inflation.

Housing is a big source of inequality, as expensive prices force poor people to take large debt that essentially results in them paying a rent to banks. Everything has been organized at the policy level so this happens. Poor people buying a house WILL pay a large fraction of their lifetime earnings to banks.

I never heard an elected democrat complain about that. On the contrary they all seem happy to go along with the scheme.

High housing prices is also an good way to cancel inflation: even relatively wealthy people (top 20%) must compete on price and give up a lot of cash to access home ownership - cash that would otherwise be creating inflation.

I guess you can put all this under the umbrella "inequality". This is just the detail of how it happens.

15   Bellingham Bill   2014 Jan 4, 5:38am  

Finding good government on this planet is a very difficult task.

Singapore, S Korea, Taiwan, maybe Norway on balance. . . but even they have major policy disasters that offend my sensibilities.

Perhaps Switzerland wins the pot, but good luck joining that club.

Japan had a meteoric, hard-won rise, 1960-1990:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/JPNRGDPC

but they let success get to their heads, and they're pretty fucked now, I suspect.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/GGGDTAJPA188N

The US's problems are kinda solvable, but not while we're so divided as we are.

It is true that eurosocialist policies are harder, if not suicidal, to implement when we have 300M people to house & feed.

If we just throw free shit at the masses, we'll have 600M people to house & feed in due time.

16   tatupu70   2014 Jan 4, 7:12am  

Call it Crazy says

...due to the incompetence, laziness and lack of ability by the working class...

Nominated.

17   John Bailo   2014 Jan 4, 7:20am  

driscoll63 says

"because the poor and the middle class are stupid"

Mega Millions: Late discovery leads to delivery driver claiming $324 million lottery prize

Two weeks of suspense over who won a $324 million lottery prize ended Friday with the announcement that a delivery driver who bought the winning ticket at an East San Jose gift shop finally stepped forward to claim his winnings.

Tran said he is -- or was -- a delivery driver who loves to visit San Jose with his family and bought tickets throughout his route.

http://www.mercurynews.com/california/ci_24840318/california-lottery-324-million-mega-millions-winner-steps

Who wants to bet that there is no one who reads or posts on Patrick.net who has a higher net worth than Steve Tran, Mega-Millions winner...and former delivery truck driver!

At the same time, who wants to bet that almost everyone who does post, thinks his IQ is way above the average Mega-Millions winner, and in fact, is the sort of person who would never buy a lottery ticket.

18   Robert Sproul   2014 Jan 4, 7:24am  

From Paul Craig Roberts current posting:
"According to the official wage statistics for 2012 http://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2012 , forty percent of the US work force earned less than $20,000, fifty-three percent earned less than $30,000, and seventy-three percent earned less than $50,000. The median wage or salary was $27,519. The amounts are in current dollars and they are compensation amounts subject to state and federal income taxes and to Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes. In other words, the take home pay is less.
To put these incomes into some perspective, the poverty threshold for a family of four in 2013 was $23,550."
I hope Obama(doesn't)Care at least keeps paying for their Zanax.
(Some on PatNet discount PCR, I personally am quite fond of these old Reagan Storm Troopers [Stockman] that now revile and disparage the corrupt Corporatocracy)

19   tatupu70   2014 Jan 4, 7:29am  

Heraclitusstudent says

Housing is a big source of inequality, as expensive prices force poor people to take large debt that essentially results in them paying a rent to banks. Everything has been organized at the policy level so this happens. Poor people buying a house WILL pay a large fraction of their lifetime earnings to banks.

You need to take a step back--the problem isn't housing. Rich own all the assets and are able to monetize them in such a way to enrich themselves and hurt the middle and lower classes.

Housing is one of those assets, sure, but is not unique.

20   Bellingham Bill   2014 Jan 4, 8:08am  

tatupu70 says

Housing is one of those assets, sure, but is not unique.

What is unique about it is that everyone has to either enjoy a leasehold tenancy or borrow some multiple of their annual income to escape that poling.

Then government gives borrowers the MID tax break, which just results in having to borrow even more money, at least in high-income areas where the MID is a real long-term "affordability" benefit.

A $700k home bought with 20% down at 4.5%/30 yr has an interest cost of $460,000 to the bank over the life of the loan, with $160,000 of that potentially refunded to the taxpayer via the MID.

The lender did nothing to create that wealth -- the housing good -- yet they get their ~$15,000/yr "taste" of the action.

Only when Redfin looks like the toothpaste aisle at Safeway will we get any sanity in the housing sector.

Compounding matters is that we have the 1% actually buying up supply like this is a real-world Monopoly game.

Insanity cubed!

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/jan/04/buy-to-let-landlord-evicts-housing-benefit-tenants

21   tatupu70   2014 Jan 4, 8:28am  

Bellingham Bill says

What is unique about it is that everyone has to either enjoy a leasehold tenancy or borrow some multiple of their annual income to escape that poling.

Yes, I agree with that.

22   thomaswong.1986   2014 Jan 4, 9:01am  

tatupu70 says

I understand that the government doesn't CAUSE the inequality, but government is the only entity that can fix it through good policy.

If you dont like your pay, go get a better job. Why is it clowns like you
think Govt is the only answer.. Get off your feet and get a better job.

23   thomaswong.1986   2014 Jan 4, 9:07am  

Heraclitusstudent says

Housing is a big source of inequality, as expensive prices force poor people to take large debt that essentially results in them paying a rent to banks. Everything has been organized at the policy level so this happens. Poor people buying a house WILL pay a large fraction of their lifetime earnings to banks.

You can thank the public for that one as they didnt believe home prices were much more cheaper in the past. The 99% as they say, lost their
minds ... many of your are still brainwashed over RE as some sure way to wealth. It certainly isnt.

24   mell   2014 Jan 4, 9:18am  

thomaswong.1986 says

tatupu70 says

I understand that the government doesn't CAUSE the inequality, but government is the only entity that can fix it through good policy.

If you dont like your pay, go get a better job. Why is it clowns like you

think Govt is the only answer.. Get off your feet and get a better job.

Agreed.

thomaswong.1986 says

Heraclitusstudent says

Housing is a big source of inequality, as expensive prices force poor people to take large debt that essentially results in them paying a rent to banks. Everything has been organized at the policy level so this happens. Poor people buying a house WILL pay a large fraction of their lifetime earnings to banks.

You can thank the public for that one as they didnt believe home prices were much more cheaper in the past. The 99% as they say, lost their

minds ... many of your are still brainwashed over RE as some sure way to wealth. It certainly isnt.

Agreed again. The main reason for inequality is the counterfeiting by the FED which is constantly blowing asset bubbles and reducing the pricing power of the dollar. Minimum wage is not too low, debasement is too high. Adjusting the minimum wage will never fix this, it will kill off more jobs instead. What will fix this is the prohibition of counterfeiting under severe punishment (prison time for life if necessary) for everybody and demanding that one dollar lent needs to be backed by one dollar of capital/assets, i.e. abolish fractional lending. But yeah, housing is always a great investment, go ahead by some shacks and make my day ;)

25   tatupu70   2014 Jan 4, 9:22am  

mell says

The main reason for inequality is the counterfeiting by the FED which is constantly blowing asset bubbles and reducing the pricing power of the dollar.

OK--please explain how bubbles/inflation cause inequality then. In detail.

Keeping in mind that inflation hurts SAVERS and helps DEBTORS. Is your theory that the bottom 50% are net savers and the top 1% are net debtors?

26   tatupu70   2014 Jan 4, 9:26am  

thomaswong.1986 says

If you dont like your pay, go get a better job. Why is it clowns like you

think Govt is the only answer.. Get off your feet and get a better job.

You obviously missed the memo. There aren't lots of available jobs that pay better. You know why? Because there is no demand, because of the current extreme levels of wealth inequality.

27   mell   2014 Jan 4, 9:30am  

tatupu70 says

mell says

The main reason for inequality is the counterfeiting by the FED which is constantly blowing asset bubbles and reducing the pricing power of the dollar.

OK--please explain how bubbles/inflation cause inequality then. In detail.

Keeping in mind that inflation hurts SAVERS and helps DEBTORS. Is your theory that the bottom 50% are net savers and the top 1% are net debtors?

All you need are these 2 graphs:

The top 1%s wealth is mostly in assets such as housing and stocks. The bottom 50% need to spend too much of their income on basic necessities and thus cannot profit from the asset bubbles. Pretty simple.

28   tatupu70   2014 Jan 4, 9:34am  

mell says

The top 1%s wealth is mostly in assets such as housing and stocks. The bottom 50% need to spend too much of their income on basic necessities ti profit from the asset bubbles. Pretty simple.

You make the very common mistake that assumes people's incomes aren't correlated with inflation. Let me dispel that notion--They absolutely are. If incomes rise 1% more than inflation every year, it doesn't matter if inflation is 1% or 10%, people are doing well. Conversely, if inflation is 0% every year, but incomes fall 1% a year--people are doing poorly.

Real incomes is what matters. And I've yet to any explanation why real incomes fare worse under moderate inflation.

The US economy is generating plenty of wealth--we simply have a distribution problem.

29   tatupu70   2014 Jan 4, 9:35am  

mell says

The top 1%s wealth is mostly in assets such as housing and stocks. The bottom 50% need to spend too much of their income on basic necessities and thus cannot profit from the asset bubbles. Pretty simple.

Bubbles don't generate wealth unless you can time them correctly. I've seen no evidence that the 1% is good at timing bubbles.

30   mell   2014 Jan 4, 9:44am  

tatupu70 says

If incomes rise 1% more than inflation every year, it doesn't matter if inflation is 1% or 10%, people are doing well.

But they aren't and haven't for a long time (1st graph), instead they have been lagging inflation, correlating with the Feds continued and increased intervention. The scenario you described is possible when organic economic growth and innovation takes place, not by gov. debasement of currency.

tatupu70 says

mell says

The top 1%s wealth is mostly in assets such as housing and stocks. The bottom 50% need to spend too much of their income on basic necessities and thus cannot profit from the asset bubbles. Pretty simple.

Bubbles don't generate wealth unless you can time them correctly. I've seen no evidence that the 1% is good at timing bubbles.

Somewhat true, that's why they were scared shitless in 2008 and eventually threatened/bribed the administration to enact the unprecedented bailouts. You don't have to time the bubbles that well if they last long enough and you have at least half a brain. That's why it was relatively easy to make money either in housing or stocks after the Feds announcement of QEinifinity. The game will end eventually, but there is time to siphon off the money and move it to safer heavens.

31   thomaswong.1986   2014 Jan 4, 9:45am  

tatupu70 says

You obviously missed the memo. There aren't lots of available jobs that pay better. You know why? Because there is no demand, because of the current extreme levels of wealth inequality.

Thank govt for that...."Those jobs are not coming back - Bill Clinton"

at one time even Silicon Valley was full of Middle Class jobs... thanks to
govt policies, we have lost those jobs and more... The Govt has handicapped business, education and workers over the past decades. And now you expect the same Govt to solve inequality of what? You gotta be kiddin'.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/20/steve-jobs-biography-obama_n_1022786.html

he ( Steve Jobs) told Obama at the start of their meeting, insisting that the administration needed to be more business-friendly. As an example, Jobs described the ease with which companies can build factories in China compared to the United States, where "regulations and unnecessary costs" make it difficult for them.

Jobs also criticized America's education system, saying it was "crippled by union work rules," noted Isaacson. "Until the teachers' unions were broken, there was almost no hope for education reform." Jobs proposed allowing principals to hire and fire teachers based on merit, that schools stay open until 6 p.m. and that they be open 11 months a year."

http://www.businessinsider.com/president-obamas-lack-of-resolve-frustrated-steve-jobs-2011-10

32   tatupu70   2014 Jan 4, 9:50am  

mell says

But they aren't and haven't for a long time (1st graph), instead they have been lagging inflation, correlating with the Feds continued and increased intervention. The scenario you described is possible when organic economic growth and innovation takes place, not by gov. debasement of currency.

Again--we have organic growth. There is plenty of wealth being generated in the US economy--even now. What we have is a distribution problem.

Care to take another shot at explaining how inflation causes inequality?

33   mell   2014 Jan 4, 9:53am  

tatupu70 says

Again--we have organic growth.

No we don't, by far not enough compared to the debt we're taking on, what's so hard to understand about those 2 graphs? That's the main cause of inequality.

34   tatupu70   2014 Jan 4, 9:54am  

thomaswong.1986 says

he ( Steve Jobs) told Obama at the start of their meeting, insisting that the administration needed to be more business-friendly. As an example, Jobs described the ease with which companies can build factories in China compared to the United States, where "regulations and unnecessary costs" make it difficult for them.

lol--you continue to post this quote? You are hilarious.

You think Jobs might have had an agenda? Maybe?

35   marcus   2014 Jan 4, 9:55am  

Yes, Jobs was arguing for higher corporate welfare, because the wealth inequality wasn't growing fast enough.

36   tatupu70   2014 Jan 4, 9:56am  

mell says

No we don't, by far not enough compared to the debt we're taking on, what's so hard to understand about those 2 graphs? That's the main cause of inequality.

We do. What's impossible to understand is the causation. How does inflation cause inequality?

You've shown no graphs that indicate that inequality worsens during periods of high inflation.

37   marcus   2014 Jan 4, 9:59am  

I'm afraid that if we were to have inflation now, wages would not keep up.

I have no proof other than the fact that we are far from full employment and because globalization and the potential for outsourcing offshoring of labor has not yet finished. What if we we're to have inflation that was more centered on all types of assets (including financial) than on wages ?

We always think of wealth inequality in terms of the 1% versus the rest of us in this country. What about the wealth inequality between the American worker and workers in developing countries ? This is a force to be reckoned with too, unfortunately.

We need to have a way different focus of policies if we are even to maintain the American worker's standard of living.

38   marcus   2014 Jan 4, 10:08am  

tatupu70 says

Call it Crazy says

...due to the incompetence, laziness and lack of ability by the working class...

Nominated.

Yeah, for troll of the month prize. Not that I can see the rest of his nonsense.

39   Robert Sproul   2014 Jan 4, 10:23am  

marcus says

maintain the American worker's standard of living.

It is not being maintained now. As I posted above over half of Americans make less than 30 grand. And when they need tires or the fridge breaks they borrow.

From the link:
"Unless the distribution of wealth in America begins to change for the better, assets will continue to benefit the rich and debt will continue to burden the middle class and the poor."

I despise America's favorite Grandpa Moneybags, but I like his honesty here:
“There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”― Warren Buffett

Also from the link:
"For now, the best thing that you can do is to discuss these issues with your friends, family and colleagues and try to come up with solutions."

Does anybody really think there are "solutions" at this point in the game?
Other than Thomaswrong's solution of; we all hike up our britches and get a better job.

40   tatupu70   2014 Jan 4, 10:37am  

Robert Sproul says

Does anybody really think there are "solutions" at this point in the game?

Hike capital gains taxes. Make income tax more progressive. Keep a significant estate tax.

These policies worked for 30 years until Mr. Reagan came along....

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