patrick.net

It is true that a lot of loser east coasters move to the west coast and hurt our reputation. Unfortunately, the loser west coasters don't reciprocate because, after all, even a loser doesn't want to leave paradise.

rooemoore says

the loser west coasters don't reciprocate because, after all, even a loser doesn't want to leave paradise.

The arbitrage here is that the northeast, doesn't have mild winters and thus, those who stick around, are relatively hardy and only need an occasional mid-Jan or Feb break in the Bahamas, to breakup the near continuous cold weather.

And as a result, we have our natural beauty: Cape Cod Natl seashore, Newport RI's cliffwalk, VT's northeast kingdom, Maine's rocky coastline, etc, to be enjoyed from Spring till Fall.

Crazy home prices? Check.
Excessive homelessness? Check.
Out of control local police? Check.
Run down buildings that smell like piss and shit? Double check.

San Francisco is a shithole. It's few redeeming qualities are overshadowed by pretty much everything else.

I am from SFBA and my opinion of SF is that I find it over-priced. I naturally like the suburbs more which further amplifies my perception of SF as a city to live. If I were to live in SF, not only would my commute to work be longer, but I wouldn't like to deal with insane house prices whether buy/rent, lack of parking (I really can't stand spending time circling trying to find a spot), the weather I don't particularly like, the homeless issue and the overstimulation due to noise. For someone like me, I would require a discount to live in such an environment, so it actually benefits me that prices in the suburbs are cheaper than in the city. I do like SF as a place to visit sometimes however and it's about a 45 min bart ride for me to embarcadero station and then at the end of the day I go back to my suburb.

rooemoore says

It is true that a lot of loser east coasters move to the west coast and hurt our reputation. Unfortunately, the loser west coasters don't reciprocate because, after all, even a loser doesn't want to leave paradise.

Would that be the Losers who are there working and can afford the rent?

Rin says

And then, the so-called hipsters and/or hippies appear to be the brain dead Bostonians or New Yorkers, who couldn't hack the winters back east.

More like small town people (Midwest, South, West, whatever) who want San Francisco to be the opposite of their one-horse town, whether ideologically or otherwise.

I always liked the "49er" description. San Francisco is a 4 that thinks it's a 9.

I agree with epitaph's and dublin hillz's characterization for the most part. Also, even if you are well-off enough to be a property owner in SF, you still have to deal with the crazy planning department plus NIMBY neighbors in order to do anything with your house.

epitaph actually mentioned an interesting one: SFPD. Those guys are useless at actually stopping crime, solving crimes, etc. Basically, they seem to ride around in cars all day (rather than doing something more effective like walking beats), threaten people who report crimes (instead of trying to get more info from them to solve them), and generally be willfully ineffective (much like city government). Just talk to SF residents who have been robbed, which happens more frequently than anyone is willing to admit, due to the ample gangs, projects, and transients.

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

No, it was time to declare it a piece of shit around 1971. Now it's a piece of shit that is 10,0000 more expensive than it should be

Oh great, so now you are blaming Dirty Harry.

CaptainShuddup says

Would that be the Losers who are there working and can afford the rent?

I believe there are two sorts of losers here.

One are those, who can find a job, but then, walk around spouting new age philosophies and artistic credos. Usually, these folks back east, never leave a college town (like Amherst MA, which is a lot like Berkeley CA but rural), however, when they do, they decide that Boston (or NYC) is too harsh for them, where ppl expect results from navel gazing like good health, more endurance for some 10K race, or working longer hours.

Then there are the drifter/no job type of hipsters, whose parents unfortunately give 'em enough of an allowance, so that they can split a 3 bdrm with 3-5 persons. And like the aforementioned crowd above, they too spout philosophies but have no plans on achieving Buddhahood in this lifetime so instead, they join protest groups.

corntrollio says

Just talk to SF residents who have been robbed, which happens more frequently than anyone is willing to admit, due to the ample gangs, projects, and transients

That's just like Philly, which is why when I did a 9 month consulting project there, I'd rented a place in a safe suburb. I came into the office early, before rush hour, and left before 4. And then, I'd dialed in, to check on things afterwards in the evening.

The place I was looking at in a so-called safe section of center city, had a guy get gunned down, just around the corner, by a street gang. There was no way I was going to move into Philly, after that had occurred. From what I'd heard from my friend, who'd lived there after that slaying, the Philly PD never solved the case. It was like 'which gang?'

That's real deterrence for you.

My mom's side of the family came to California in 1842. Over the years I've had ancestors who've lived all over the state, including SF.

The truth is San Francisco has ALWAYS been considered dirty, and filled with degenerates. It has also ALWAYS been expensive.

But hey, I love San Francisco. I also like Boston and Philly.

rooemoore says

The truth is San Francisco has ALWAYS been considered dirty, and filled with degenerates. It has also ALWAYS been expensive.

Poppycock. I'm a seventh generation Californian. I've lived here most of my life. SF has always been known for a couple of things: its' whores and its' earthquakes. The outsized pricing of SF real estate (and surrounding areas) came about fairly recently. I have a buddy who bought a decent-sized house on a hill with his stay-at-home wife in Tiburon in 1969. He was an electrician's apprentice at the time. (He's still there.) Good luck with that today.

I suspect people are just inured to the idea that California should be more expensive because it's California. True of native's, too, but to a lesser degree

Rin says

with the photo opts of the Golden Gate park to the Embarcadero area posing as a front

You don't seem to realize what percentage of the city you just described. Sad to hear your time here as a tourist wasn't what you'd hoped.

There's no such thing as overrated, unless you mean by cost of living or some other measure. Either you like a place, find some things redeeming or to your like, or you don't for the most part. I'm not always sure it's worth the price, but this place is incredible. It felt like home almost immediately.

JodyChunder says

Poppycock. ... I have a buddy who bought a decent-sized house on a hill with his stay-at-home wife in Tiburon in 1969. He was an electrician's apprentice at the time. (He's still there.) Good luck with that today.

First of all, Tiberon is not San Francisco. Secondly, just because San Francisco was more affordable many years ago does not mean that it wasn't still expensive. When I say it was always expensive I mean that relative to other cities. Post war, the price climb has been consistent and strong.

7th generation? So when did your family come to CA? 1800?

NYC and SF have been called expensive for more than a century, but the numbers show disproportionate price increases in recent decades. There are several reasons for it, for example Paul Krugman distinguished "the zoned zone" from flatland. NYC allowed massive construction in the 1960s, so housing prices in the 1970s were quite reasonable, but then the city went nearly bankrupt and many buildings in undesirable areas were abandoned to crime. I suspect that underlying current policy, which maximizes prices by minimizing construction, may be the memory of that era.

A good way to see the changes in recent decades is to watch old movies, whether documentaries or sometimes even fiction. If you look at SF in the early 1970s, ordinary people had decent housing. Philip Glass began composing music while supporting himself and his family as a taxi driver, and he remembers that it was possible for a blue collar worker living in an outer borough to do that in those days. Watch "Saturday Night Fever," which I thought was about disco dancing when I first saw it, but seeing it again I saw it was about life in NYC at that time, the different ambitions and stresses and opportunities and risks. The stories may be dramatized, but apply your peripheral vision to the perimeter of the frame and you'll see how different things were.

NYC and SF are expensive because there is a lot of demand, i.e. many people want to live in NYC and/or SF, including many people who have a choice. To some extent it reflects the widening gap between the 1% and the 99%, i.e. the 1% can bid up prices for whatever they want most. If they thought Cleveland was better, they'd move.

So no, SF isn't overrated, but it's overpriced due primarily to zoning & planning and outsized demand by the 1%.

Even during the dotcom boom, SF housing prices were pretty affordable. It has shot up after the bust.

curious2 says

Watch "Saturday Night Fever," which I thought was about disco dancing when I first saw it, but seeing it again I saw it was about life in NYC at that time, the different ambitions and stresses and opportunities and risks. The stories may be dramatized, but apply your peripheral vision to the perimeter of the frame and you'll see how different things were.

Recently rewatched. What a dark movie! I'd forgotten.

Even then, a paint store clerk had to live in Brooklyn and could only aspire to live in NYC. Isn't that what was portrayed? Including the girlfriend.

FunTime says

Isn't that what was portrayed? Including the girlfriend.

She got a job (as a secretary IIRC) and a small apartment in the east village or the lower east side of Manhattan. Good luck to any secretary trying to get that same apartment now! Their differing ambitions were part of the tension of the story, indeed it would already have been difficult to prosper in an unskilled clerk job that required no education, but if you got an education or learned a skill - even typing or driving a taxi - you could make it in NYC.

curious2 says

Good luck to any secretary trying to get that same apartment now!

In NYC, women have options, like women's only dorm/hostels.

For instance:

http://websterapartments.org/rates.htm

which includes meals along with rent. I'd known a few women who'd stayed in those places in NY and they're rather nice and well kept.

It's the theme of the Tom Hank's original comedy show, 'Bosom Buddies', two guys in drag, attempting to find housing in a women's hostel.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/ORKyyHBy6JQ

FunTime says

You don't seem to realize what percentage of the city you just described. Sad to hear your time here as a tourist wasn't what you'd hoped.

Well, here's the thing, I'd went with the business tourist crowd to the Embracadero-Golden Gate arc and sure, for the most part, it was like a slice of Boston's downtown areas.

On the other hand, the eastern transplants, who're permanent SF residents, took me all over the place. And one of the things they had in common was that they drove from one point to another, and seldom walked or used the BART for those transits because all and all, the city was more like Philly than SF. That's how I came to realize that a lot of SF was more reputation than reality with the hobos, thugs, and weirdos.

In contrast, if you follow this one simple rule in Boston, and that's avoid the neighborhoods of Roxbury, Mattapan, & Dorchester, chances are, you'll be fine. Just be aware of your proximity to the big bad 3 neighborhoods, if you're in those neighborhoods which border them. Yes, there have been gang problems, when they cross into formerly safe areas. And then, there are these insular places like Charlestown & South Boston, where if you're friends with a local, you're fine, but they tend to not like outsiders hanging out at their watering holes.

So if you start a walking tour ... in East Boston (Maverick Sq to Orient Heights), you'll get a blue collar vibe but residents are ok and reasonable. I know ppl who live there and they don't deal with bums and thugs. The airport is located there.

Then, you can across the harbor, on the transit (MBTA) into downtown, and walk from the Financial District/North End, all the way through the shopping, clubbing, and university areas, and into where the young students live, off campus, in Brighton/Allston, and it's still fine.

And likewise, the more residential areas of Boston: Hyde Park, Roslindale, & West Roxbury, are like working class suburbs but cityside.

When I was working in Philly, doing something like the above was simply not safe. I only did the Penn to Rittenhouse Sq to Society Hill walk once, as they were thugs, beggars, and riff-raff, between each safe point. Afterwards, I drove from sector to sector and garage parked.

Here's a music video of a Boston band, Extreme, now well over 20 years ago, but it's still valid even today.

What you see is still a part of Boston's rich culture of outdoor music, audience participation, & a general sense of community, when it's not winter-time ...

http://www.youtube.com/embed/I-h4A7bF8wQ

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

the J Geils shit they used to play

J Geils rock, or at least, they used to, back in ancient times ...

http://www.youtube.com/embed/w5h0A1u-XsE

rooemoore says

My mom's side of the family came to California in 1842. Over the years I've had ancestors who've lived all over the state, including SF.

The truth is San Francisco has ALWAYS been considered dirty, and filled with degenerates. It has also ALWAYS been expensive.

But hey, I love San Francisco. I also like Boston and Philly.

SF and LA prices were comparable in the 1980s. Monthly payments today are the same in LA adjusted for inflation as in 1980s. Not so in SF. SF is still stuck in a tech boom.

Rin says

vibrant music scene plus an avant-garde bohemian thing going on

Um, the musicians and "avant-garde bohemians" all got priced out of SF, mostly during the 1st tech boom, while the rest got booted this last downturn, quickly replaced by geeky, yet oh so trendy software engineers, so I am not sure what you were expecting, maybe a Summer of Love Haight-Ashbury Revival?

Next time try Oakland.

We need to clone Charlie Manson and release a couple of dozen into the SF homeless/hippie scene to give SF a publicity bump.

Indiana Jones says

Rin says

vibrant music scene plus an avant-garde bohemian thing going on

Um, the musicians and "avant-garde bohemians" all got priced out of SF, mostly during the 1st tech boom, while the rest got booted this last downturn, quickly replaced by geeky, yet oh so trendy software engineers, so I am not sure what you were expecting, maybe a Summer of Love Haight-Ashbury Revival?

Next time try Oakland.

I was expecting Boston but what I saw was Philly.

Perhaps what's always buffered the city of Boston is that during any academic year, there are upwards of 100K students living in the city, not including the 'burbs, where the grand total could swell up to 200K. The so-called musicians and such, seem to mingle with this crowd first, before adopting the region as a whole.

And then, the more traditional neighborhoods, like an East Boston for instance, have retained their soul over the decades. And sure, most everyone's priced out of downtown/Back Bay but it isn't all that necessary to be exactly there, as there are plenty of gatherings of like minded folks, all over the place.

BTW, considered one of the worst (or cheesiest) songs of the 80s, here's Marty Balin & Grace Slick, paying homage to San Francisco ...

Starship's "We Built This City"

http://www.youtube.com/embed/K1b8AhIsSYQ

Ouch. That Starship song mentions at least three cities and the video adds several more; it isn't a homage to SF. While living in SF, Grace Slick wrote this:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/WANNqr-vcx0

And Otis Redding and Steve Cropper wrote this:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/PyxLaHmOaYM

Well of course, Jefferson Airplane's "White Rabbit" is pure classic rock. No argument on that point.

But that was a *Summer of Love* track, think Haight-Ashbury era, not a homage towards SF.

As for SF dedications, here's Harry Chaplin's "Taxi"

http://www.youtube.com/embed/4qYU9b5OF8M

And Blue Image's "Ride Captain Ride"

http://www.youtube.com/embed/UAx9h_R23PQ

curious2 says

Ouch. That Starship song mentions at least three cities

Tossing Abe Lincoln's memorial in there, doesn't make it a DC tribute. The idea behind that quip was to show that Honest Abe approved of all the great work that Jefferson Airplane/Jefferson Starship/Starship did for American culture. Basically, it's like saying that Abe handed them a Frank Lloyd Wright award for cultural greatness.

That Starship song also mentions "The City That Never Sleeps," which would be New York, certainly not SF which has last call at 1:30a and rolls up the sidewalks at 2. It also mentions Cleveland or something, and a lot of the video was shot in Las Vegas. And, it was written by Brits, not SF natives. So, even though the song mentions the Golden Gate Bridge, you can't fairly blame it on SF.

Well, here are the two of the Boston area's classic rock mainstay masterpieces:

Aerosmith's "Dream On":

http://www.youtube.com/embed/yyfNHlqymP8

Boston's "More Than A Feeling":

http://www.youtube.com/embed/SSR6ZzjDZ94

I love "Dream On" but it isn't specifically about Boston; if you're going to credit Boston with every song ever written by everybody who ever lived there, then SF gets The Grateful Dead, Janice Joplin, and countless others, even Green Day and Creedence Clearwater Revival (SFBA). Even "More Than a Feeling" doesn't mention Boston, but the band is called Boston so I accept that one.

I think part of my point is that Tom Scholz/late Brad Delp of Boston, Steve Tyler/Joe Perry/etc of Aerosmith, Seth Justman/Peter Wolf of J Geils, Ric Ocasek/Greg Hawkes of The Cars, etc, are members of the Boston community and are actually accessible (of course within limits/privacy/etc) to those aspiring musicians and talents in the area.

Part of the reason why the aforementioned, didn't move to NYC or LA, upon achieving their millions is that they like to be a part of an actual community than being in some security detail zone on the upper east side Manhattan or Bel Air LA, living in isolation from others.

Someone put out the following article, which seems to highlight my issue against SF, as a souless city ..

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/is-san-francisco-losing-its-soul

curious2 says

SF gets The Doors

?, not sure I follow. Definitely a band formed in Los Angeles.

Point well made, though. San Francisco has an incredible history of inspiring amazing music, popular or not. Still going. It's not the way we'd like it, but San Francisco still has a huge number of amazing bands and musicians.

FunTime says

?, not sure I follow. Definitely a band formed in Los Angeles.

Thanks - deleted - somehow I thought they moved from L.A. to SF, but maybe they were only staying temporarily in connection with their concerts in 1967 and 68.

donjumpsuit says

First of all, people on the west coast, let's just say the SFBay, but it extends to the whole west coast, don't know how to express themselves in a honest and sincere way, and moreover, don't know how to deal with people who do.

Well, I'm from the west coast and let me say this as honestly and sincerely as I am capable of: You're a moron.

Your rant is just another example of a common theme on Patnet: People who project their problems on "the other". In your case -- "Not my fault, no it's the people around me!"

donjumpsuit says

Personally I will miss Tahoe, and that's about it.

Hey, don't let Nevada hit your ass on the way out.

Rin says

Someone put out the following article, which seems to highlight my issue against SF, as a souless city ..

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/is-san-francisco-losing-its-soul

Thanks for posting that article. I'm hopeful that the latter part of the article which suggests possible positive outcomes will prove to be more true than the doom and gloom. We'll see.

In his book From Counterculture to Cyberculture, he even argues that today's tech culture is a direct descendant of the hippy movement. The techies are far richer and aren't a counter-culture, but like some hippies they have the same sense of social mission to transform the world for the better with technology. Likewise the way that tech culture mixes work and play and emphasises personal growth has echoes of hippy life. "The same logic that was driving the counter-culture – and that continues to drive much of San Francisco today – is the very logic that drives Google," says Turner. "In a limited sense, the 1960s are turning around to bite San Francisco."

curious2 says

Thanks - deleted - somehow I thought they moved from L.A. to SF, but maybe they were only staying temporarily in connection with their concerts in 1967 and 68.

Of course they spent a lot of time here! ; ) San Francisco was the place to be in those days. Always something interesting going on in Los Angeles too.

donjumpsuit says

It will leave the Chinese and Mexicans to hash it out. Literally and figuratively.

Typical backwards, traditional, racist East Coaster! ; )

Good luck with so many generalizations. I don't find them useful, but they are darn funny!
One of the most fun realizations of my life was visiting New York City for the first time. I'd had all these generalizations built-up over years of movie and TV references to New York City. I just expected everyone out there to be an asshole. It was really awesome to get there and realize how dumb all those things I'd seen portrayed or had been told turned out to be.

The insistence on categorizing regions of people is really amazing and confusing. We all have much more in common than in difference.

donjumpsuit says

Kardashian mentality.

Feminism too much for ya? ; ) Again, I find these kinds of generalizations really funny. Of course, there's some truth to them, but it gets overblown.

The East Coast often seems quaintly old-fashioned when it comes to male/female roles. I'm surprised women still put up with it.