patrick.net

Blurtman says

"My career depends on it."

Not really, she is "affirmative action insulated".

Where is the law that says "We will correct a perceived injustice to a designated subgroup by creating an equal and opposite injustice imposed on another arbitrary group who had nothing to do with the original perceived injustice, but stand in proxy by being good enough for guilt by association."

This sounds like a business opportunity. Let's have a MailBoxes etc company in Buenos Aires, & get all wannabe migrants to the US, from Britain, the rest of western Europe, eastern Europe, & the near east, to set up a mail stop in Latin America and then, they can all declare themselves a disadvantaged group upon arriving in the US, despite being basically white.

Blurtman says

"By emgirating to Buenos Aires instead of New York, these Italian immigrants have been transformed into Latin Americans, a reviled and disadvantaged people." said the Supreme Court Justice.

I can't find this anywhere on the intternet. Where and when did she say it or did you just make it up?

It's satire.

Ceffer says

It's satire.

Still, it's in essence, a true point.

A person could move from eastern Europe, to South America, and then apply to the US, as a Latin-American migrant and have opportunities for more scholarship money than someone, starting from [ Bulgaria, Azerbaijan, Afghanistan, etc ] and moving to America directly, as a white person. Today, the concept *white ethnic*, only applies for Spanish speaking nations.

The funny part is, Justice Scalia once referred to his Italian heritage as being a "minority." That's pretty liberal interpretation. (horrors!!)

monkframe says

The funny part is, Justice Scalia once referred to his Italian heritage as being a "minority." That's pretty liberal interpretation. (horrors!!)

Sorry, no affirmative action for Scalia, in spite of the fact that the USA passed a law to keep his brethren out of the country.

Immigration Act of 1924

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924

Yep, there are multiple generations of poor Italians in Brooklyn and in South Boston, who have been doing shitty manual labor from great grandfather to great grandson. Not to mention plenty of Scots-Irish in West Virginia in poverty for even longer.

But don't hold your breath for any preferential treatment.

Admissions should be 100% merit based, or at least based on class, not race. There's no reason the private-school educated children of a Nigerian Immigrant Surgeon needs Affirmative Action.

The place to apply for reparations for disadvantaged Latin Americans is called "Madrid".

So do gay Chindian billionares qualify as a minority? Can they buy a 5 million dollar house and still qualify as a minority and get benefits?

lostand confused says

So do gay Chindian billionares qualify as a minority? Can they buy a 5 million dollar house and still qualify as a minority and get benefits?

Nope.

By virtue of the high percentage of Asian-Americans at Ivy colleges and so forth, Asians are not considered disadvantaged minorities.

In fact, children of mixed, White-Asian couples are applying to the Ivies, as *white* applicants.

lostand confused says

So do gay Chindian billionares qualify as a minority? Can they buy a 5 million dollar house and still qualify as a minority and get benefits?

But if you're a billionaire, getting into Ivies is as simple as taking courses as as a special student and then, transferring into the full time program.

thunderlips11 says

Admissions should be 100% merit based, or at least based on class, not race.

The issue is not so much pure admissions per se but scholarship opportunities. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of this whole Ivy league obsession, however, if you factor out the Ivies, the chances for a person of *Latin* designation, getting a full scholarship to let's say Petroleum Engineering at a Univ of Houston, Comp Engineering at GA Tech, etc, is far higher than either a White or Asian applicant. That ability to then, get through a program w/o the excess loan overhead, is in itself, a major blessing. What ends up happening, in the end, is that you see a lot of rich *white* ppl from Latin Countries having huge opportunities whereas others with less of an advantage, get it locally.

Rin says

Ceffer says

It's satire.

Still, it's in essence, a true point.

A person could move from eastern Europe, to South America, and then apply to the US, as a Latin-American migrant and have opportunities for more scholarship money than someone, starting from [ Bulgaria, Azerbaijan, Afghanistan, etc ] and moving to America directly, as a white person. Today, the concept *white ethnic*, only applies for Spanish speaking nations.

In essence it's a moronic how many angels can dance on the head of a pin stupidity.

Rin says

What ends up happening, in the end, is that you see a lot of rich *white* ppl from Latin Countries having huge opportunities whereas others with less of an advantage, get it locally.

Oh, there's no doubt about it. People don't realize how many Argentines, Brazilians, and lilywhite 100% Castillian or German or Italian Ancestry individuals take advantage to go to US Schools.

They're not only not at all Indian or Mestiso, they're also not at all disadvantaged. Many of the ones I knew in University lived in $2000+/month apartments by themselves, paid for by their wealthy families in Sao Paolo - in the 90s.

Meanwhile an Italian kid from four generations doing manual labor in South Boston or Brooklyn, single mother, can't get a break.

thunderlips11 says

They're not only not at all Indian or Mestiso, they're also not at all disadvantaged. Many of the ones I knew in University lived in $2000+/month apartments by themselves, paid for by their wealthy families in Sao Paolo - in the 90s.

Same here, I knew a bunch of them, living in prime locations in Boston, during those days.

Rin says

Same here, I knew a bunch of them, living in prime locations in Boston, during those days.

Yep, me too - same city.

I should also mention one absolutely bristled at the suggestion he was even partially Indian, and the surest way to get in a fistfight with a Mexican is to insinuate - even in the nicest way - that he may have Black ancestry.

Which is highly likely, since millions of Black Slaves from Africa arrived at Santa Cruz, and they're weren't taken up in Dr. Funkenstein's Spaceship after Mexican Indepedence.

thunderlips11 says

Rin says

Same here, I knew a bunch of them, living in prime locations in Boston, during those days.

Yep, me too - same city.

The thing here is that if one's rich, one should go through the *white* path.. Take classes, ala carte, at Harvard, Duke, Columbia, MIT, etc, [ pay for each class, out of pocket ] and transfer into the full time program.

There's no need to insult the middle class applicant or attendant by pretending to have merit.

The scholarships, etc, should be for those who need the money. The rich kids, *Latin* or otherwise, have plenty of backdoors into the schools.

thunderlips11 says

Oh, there's no doubt about it. People don't realize how many Argentines, Brazilians, and lilywhite 100% Castillian or German or Italian Ancestry individuals take advantage to go to US Schools.

Rin says

Same here, I knew a bunch of them, living in prime locations in Boston, during those days

Well I don't realize how many or know a bunch of them. I didn't see them at university. You guys want to put some numbers to this or is this going to be pure anecdotal?

WTF you guys are telling me people waltz into the country on a student visa and get scholarships just on ethnicity? Prove it. Show something from a university somewhere backing this up. You're saying foreign students get admission preference over local in state students. Prove it. What about in state vs out of state tuition? Wouldn't the mythiical poor 4th generation italian kid pay in state rates?

bob2356 says

You guys want to put some numbers to this or is this going to be pure anecdotal?

Yes, it's anecdotal because no one I knew, got into Harvard graduate school with a 3.2 GPA and a Latin scholarship but happened to have a rich white Texan dad, retired in Mexico City with his Mexican sweetheart.

Again, Columbia Univ, 3.1 GPA & scholarship, but mother, a millionaire in Sao Paulo Brazil. She was white Portuguese.

Another guy, 3.0 GPA, Brown Univ Masters program but with rich family in Rio de Janeiro, mixed Spanish & Italian.

And the list goes on ...

In contrast, every white or Asian person in the aforementioned situations had 3.5-4.0 GPAs, and the only rich one of the pack, had his family put him up in London, getting his MS at London School of Economics before arriving at Univ of Chicago for his PhD.

Rin says

Again, Columbia Univ, 3.1 GPA & scholarship, but mother, a millionaire in Sao Paulo Brazil. She was white Portuguese.

Another guy, 3.0 GPA, Brown Univ Masters program but with rich family in Rio de Janeiro, mixed Spanish & Italian.

and you just happened to know these people, their gpa and their family situation even though they went to a different school or are you claiming you went to harvard, columbia, and brown? As well as knowing every white and asian person, their gpa's and family situation. Pretty f'ing remarkable. Didn't you also claim you aced your mcats, but aren't a doctor? Nice to be on the internet were you can be anyone you want to be.

the list goes on.

WTF is a "latin scholarship", I've never heard the term. But I didn't go to harvard, brown, and columbia either so I may have missed out. Of course I didn't know the gpa and income of everyone I went to school with either. or anyone I went to school with actually.

As for me, I work for a hedge fund, thus, medical school is on hold until I get my cash out. Remember, I want to be a researcher, not a greedy Anesthesiologist, so I can't afford to borrow money for additional schooling.

Latin Scholarship in this case refers to a myriad of scholarships granted to persons who're declared of Hispanic descent, which is a geographic demarcation of sorts. And these scholarships were not based upon having financial difficulties.

As for specific stats from specific colleges, heck, even my school would never disclose the graduating GPAs of Latin-Hispanic vs White or Asian.

On the other hand, medicine seems to track the whole GPA/MCAT indices well so here's a chart ...

https://www.aamc.org/download/321498/data/2012factstable19.pdf

In it, you can see that the White & Asian pools have the highest MCAT average and that particular exam levels the playing field as non-science GPAs, etc, have a lot of fluctuation based upon depts, schools, instructors, etc.

Rin says

atin Scholarship in this case refers to a myriad of scholarships granted to persons who're declared of Hispanic descent, which is a geographic demarcation of sorts. And these scholarships were not based upon having financial difficulties.

And that is self-declared, I am sure. So you merely claim to be Hispanic, and you are instantly a disadvantaged minority, or perhaps more accurately, an underrepresented minority as even if you are a billionaire you become entitled.

Quite a while ago, I had contacted the SF Bay Area SBA office and asked about their minority loan program. According to the office, to be considered to be a Hispanic minority all you had to do was to declare that you were Hispanic. But to be considered as a native American, you could not merely self declare. You had to provide proof that you were on a tribal register.

Blurtman says

to be considered to be a Hispanic minority all you had to do was to declare that you were Hispanic.

And what's a better way of validating that, than in getting a Mailboxes etc address, south of the border.

Seriously, there's probably a big business idea here, for eastern Europeaners who want to come to America.

I think that gal at Harvard could rent out a room in her dad's mansion in Mexico City.

Rin says

Blurtman says

to be considered to be a Hispanic minority all you had to do was to declare that you were Hispanic.

And what's a better way of validating that, than in getting a Mailboxes etc address, south of the border.

Seriously, there's probably a big business idea here, for eastern Europeaners who want to come to America.

I think that gal at Harvard could rent out a room in her dad's mansion in Mexico City.

There is an easy solution to all this: DNA profiling of anyone claiming admission or financial aid based on race.

With DNA testing it easy enough to prove if that latino applicant has ANY minority heritage or not.

There are Germans living in Argentina- have they been so transformed!

By the way, in the 60's or 70's Italian Americans WERE given preferential treatment at NYC college as they also claimed "minority" status and were granted it.

and they are still seeking it!
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/15/nyregion/15italians.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Sotomayor is no minority, her ass alone took a census team of 6 complete.

smaulgld says

There are Germans living in Argentina- they been so transformed!

By the way, in the 60's or 70's Italian Americans WERE given preferential treatment at NYC college as they also claimed "minority" status and were granted it.

and they are still seeking it!

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/15/nyregion/15italians.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

The methodology is sound - illustrate under-representation, and that's it. Well, it won't quite work that way unless the federal and state governments say you can do that, and everone cannot.

The law of the land once acted to limit entry of undesirable Italians, eastern and southern Europeans, and Jews. Maybe they should open up affirmative action to these groups, too.

Blurtman says

smaulgld says

There are Germans living in Argentina- they been so transformed!

By the way, in the 60's or 70's Italian Americans WERE given preferential treatment at NYC college as they also claimed "minority" status and were granted it.

and they are still seeking it!

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/15/nyregion/15italians.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

The methodology is sound - illustrate under-representation, and that's it. Well, it won't quite work that way unless the federal and state governments say you can do that, and everone cannot.

The law of the land once acted to limit entry of undesirable Italians, eastern and southern Europeans, and Jews. Maybe they should open up affirmative action to these groups, too.

And once everyone has claimed it, then Anglo- Saxon-Americans can claim it too! They will be the first triple hyphenated ethnic group to claim such status.

New Renter says

With DNA testing it easy enough to prove if that latino applicant has ANY minority heritage or not.

The problem with that is that almost everyone has 5% of something other. Plus, continental Spain is basically white but is somehow, seen as Latin heritage whereas the French and Italians are not Latin, despite their linguistic roots being identical ... a.k.a. Caesar's language, Latin.

This whole thing is a farce, as in New Zealand, half-Maori/half-English students can get full STEM scholarships to places like Auckland university, for being disadvantaged, despite having fair-to-olive skin & round eyes, whereas an Afghan or Cambodian family, who'd fled a true genocide, gets nothing. No one in NZ talks about this, as it's not PC, but that's what's going on.

Rin says

seen as Latin heritage whereas the French and Italians are not Latin, despite their linguistic roots being identical ... a.k.a. Caesar's language, Latin.

Latin originated in Italy near Rome in an area called Latium
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/332009/Latium

Blurtman says

According to the office, to be considered to be a Hispanic minority all you had to do was to declare that you were Hispanic.

So if I change all the Z's in my last name to S's then claim to be Hispanic, then I get preferential treatment, right?

Blurtman says

Sorry, no affirmative action for Scalia, in spite of the fact that the USA passed a law to keep his brethren out of the country.

Immigration Act of 1924

AND despite Roosevelt tossing Italians into concentration camps during World War II http://www.segreta.org/

Research Finds that Atheists are Most Hated and Distrusted Minority

Study: Atheists distrusted as much as rapists

Atheists are one of the most disliked groups in America.

By the standards of Affirmative Action and all other preferential treatment, each atheist should get a billion dollars, his own private island, and a supermodel to fuck. So much for AA being "fair". My people were burnt at the stake for heresy. We've paid our dues as a minority.

"They drove my family out of Bayside!"

Rin says

On the other hand, medicine seems to track the whole GPA/MCAT indices well so here's a chart ...

https://www.aamc.org/download/321498/data/2012factstable19.pdf

For the matriculated students, given the fact that the Asian-American MCAT mean is a 32.5, which clearly exceeds the so-called good score of a 30-31, you could almost say that they face discrimination in medical school admissions.

And how much would you bet that those who didn't declare their race, the 32.6 mean, were also Asian but didn't want to get tagged into that category?

I haven't delved much into it, but there's a guy named Ron Utz or Ouz or something, who claims that affirmative action is more about keeping enough Asians and Jews out to keep space open for Alumni Admissions, particularly in the Ivy Leagues for "Alumni Heritage Admissions"

thunderlips11 says

who claims that affirmative action is more about keeping enough Asians and Jews out to keep space open for Alumni Admissions, particularly in the Ivy Leagues for "Alumni Heritage Admissions"

Of course that data is kept quiet at Ivy schools, however, isn't the medical school/MCAT summary report almost proof of that phenomena, at least for Asian-Americans?

I mean a 32.6 MCAT mean for an entire demographic is nothing to laugh at. In effect, the way that converts, in terms of an absolute type of grading system, no institutional, nor departmental, nor grade inflation bias, 29.5-31.99 = B+, 32-33.99 = A-, 34-35.99 = A, 36 & above is an A+, and 40 and above is a perfect score.

Thus, many admissions to medical school is an A- applicant from the Asian pool whereas others get to have a profile of B's and B+'s.

thunderlips11 says

I haven't delved much into it, but there's a guy named Ron Utz or Ouz or something, who claims that affirmative action is more about keeping enough Asians and Jews out to keep space open for Alumni Admissions, particularly in the Ivy Leagues for "Alumni Heritage Admissions"

Wouldn't matter if that was the intended goal, or not, as it has achieved that.

Let's look at the dynamics:

If you are a legacy applicant, you are in, like in Animal House. A liberal talking head simpleton on one of the Sunday political shows basically implied that no minorities benefited from legacy admission, as if there were no minority Ivy League grads. That would have to be insulting, and portrays what might be described as "good racism" but racism none the less.

If you are wealthy and connected, you can get your moron kid into the top schools because you know people, or are wealthy enough to gift to the school.

If you are minority, or even Spanish or Spanish pretend, but not Asian, you get in with lower qualifications meaning that you took a better qualified applicant's spot.

The rest have to compete based upon qualifications. That includes lots of poor, lower middle class white kids and Asians.

Blurtman says

If you are wealthy and connected, you can get your moron kid into the top schools because you know people, or are wealthy enough to gift to the school.

It goes beyond that ... a wealthy person, alumni or not, has backdoors into schools. One is called the special students program, ppl who take 4 to 8 classes, paying full price ala carte, and have a high chance of transfer admissions into the BA program.

Thus, the best thing for a well off Asian family to do is that instead of torturing their kids to get a 4.0/perfect SATs/captain of every sports team type of resume, instead have them take courses at an ivy, as a special student and not go through the general admissions process.

These schools welcome rich ppl and have ways of getting 'em through the system. The key is not to make a scene and try to appear to compete against the regulars from Philips Academy, Horace Mann, Stuyvesant, etc. The middler classers have their path but the rich ones, have a better one.

Rin says

hese schools welcome rich ppl and have ways of getting 'em through the system. The key is not to make a scene and try to appear to compete against the regulars from Philips Academy, Horace Mann, Stuyvesant, etc. The middler classers have their path but the rich ones, have a better one.

Interesting. GWB was admitted to the number one graduate business school in the USA, had terrible academic and work experience qualifications, and as neither parent had attended Harvard, he was not a legacy.

It somewhat amazes me that politicians continually extoll the concept of the level playing field. Most americans know that is bull, from every socioeconomic segment.