patrick.net

And then, they show mid-career Civil Engineers, earning almost the same $100K salary, with MSs and PhDs, a couple of thousand dollars of each other. Thus, how did the additional schoolwork have an effect?

Then, they bring up accounting, completely forgetting to mention that masters coursework, makes up for the lack of audit hours at a big four audit firm, in qualifying to sit for the CPA exam. And yes, a PhD means that ALL those masters courses are covered under the RA/TA-ship.

Instead, I'd rather have my audit hours at PwC, etc, after college, pass the CPA, laterally move into a securities or insurance/actuarial firm, leave for an MBA (only if it's Wharton, Columbia, London, or Harvard), and then, start out much higher than the bozos that they're reporting on here, like $150K to $180K.

Here's a hint to the educational mafia ... more degrees = overqualified.

Yes, it's great to have a Wharton MBA but the buck stops there, in terms of education and its intrinsic value to the business world.

Rin says

Here's a hint to the educational mafia

I sure like to see cut in course requirements. Art and Music for one and
get rid of the other useless electives... cut courses and costs and add earlier graduation.

thomaswong.1986 says

Rin says

Here's a hint to the educational mafia

I sure like to see cut in course requirements. Art and Music for one and

get rid of the other useless electives... cut courses and costs and add earlier graduation.

That's still college.

This article is a blatant promotion of graduate schools with very sketchy evidence of its long term value, outside of becoming a doctor, lawyer, or Harvard MBA.

Rin says

This article is a blatant promotion of graduate schools with very sketchy evidence of its long term value, outside of becoming a doctor, lawyer, or Harvard MBA.

Based back in mid 80s with a glut of MBAs grads ... absolutely no value doing
college work.. Not much value today in Silicon Valley unless your really interested in
getting a company running and growth for the long run.

Rin says

Here we go again ...

Does the author take into account:

Tax brackets?
Time to complete degrees? (some take a huge chunk of a typical career)?
Lost wages while in school? Again this can be substantial.
Higher COLA for the higher paying jobs?

Unfortunately desperate, naive readers will pick up on articles like this as "proof" higher education is the path to financial success. It is, but only for universities.

New Renter says

Time to complete degrees? (some take a huge chunk of a typical career)?

Lost wages while in school? Again this can be substantial.

No, the author simply hints at and glosses over these points but then, uses mediocre numbers like a few thousand dollars in added salary, here and there, to make his case. That's basically saying that within a standard deviation of data collection, there's a significant causation in effect.

thomaswong.1986 says

Based back in mid 80s with a glut of MBAs grads ... absolutely no value doing

college work

Yes, MBA in itself is fruitless.

On the other hand, many in my field have MBAs from Harvard, Wharton, Stanford, & Columbia. The difference is that these fellas have already worked as let's say, junior equity analyst for Morgan & Stanley, before attending a top tier B-school. The end result is that later, they get recruited by firms like Lazard, MS, etc, into highly paid, lucrative senior analyst to VP like tracks, starting at over $150K.

Rin says

Another plea for ppl to attend graduate school

Yes, we need more advanced degrees to fill all those jobs at McDonald's and Walmart.

Dan8267 says

Yes, we need more advanced degrees to fill all those jobs at McDonald's and Walmart.

The civil engineering MA vs PhD has got to be the hokiest of all the comparisons ...

Excerpt:

Mid-career annual salary for an MA holder: $102,000
Debt payoff time: 8 years, 8 months

Mid-career annual salary for a PhD holder: $104,000
Debt payoff time: 7 years, 3 months

The above assumes near full RA/TA money, if the PhD's debt is lower than the pure MA holder. And then, giving up that ehem, additional *$2K*, the first guy is already four years ahead in experience, like overseeing facilities constructions and more likely not to be dubbed *overqualified*, because of his PhD degree and lack of work experience during that time period.

Realize, civil engineering is about real world construction projects, not some theoretical treatise on the strength of materials, based upon some non-linear ultrasonic pulsation. Seriously, academics have no idea that the real world could care less about their education.

Rin says

Realize, civil engineering is about real world construction projects, not some theoretical treatise on the strength of materials, based upon some non-linear ultrasonic pulsation. Seriously, academics have no idea that the real world could care less about their education

Another point, a person can be working as a Civil, and get a masters part-time, if there's an area he wants to focus on specifically. The company will usually pick up, up to $5K per year for that. Then, in the four years he's working at getting real experience, that MS will be mainly paid off. And then, if he switches job, chances are, he'll do rather well.

Rin says

While the average high school grad 25 years and older can expect to earn just $29,766 a year, median annual earnings climb to $50,281 for someone with a bachelor's degree and to $73,100 for advanced-degree holders.

...and as much as $120K a year for ANYONE who believes in them self.
What a bunch of Mamby Pamby suckers people have become. Sitting around on their asses waiting to be graded, rated and told their worth. I was making anywhere from $100 a day(a easy be at the beach by noon day) to $400 a day, working in some Old Jewish condo on Star Island, with furniture that had a marble slab on every flat surface through out the house. And I was only 19, after working with a guy for year straight, who only paid me $35 a day to work from sun up to sun down.

Several recruiters called me last week, I told them I was busy. But I'm teaching my daughter. They asked what are they doing. I told her, that she already knows where to work in the whole Microsoft Enterprise stack when instructed. She's editing, Javascript, Jquery, C# code, CSS, SQL, HTML and she's coming along.
The lady said what range is she looking for. I said well before the year is out, she will be someone that any company would love to have her in the 38K to 42K range.

The recruiter said... "OH so She's real Junior". And then said, she could place somewhere now at that rate. And she was right, but I'm not done with the project she's helping me on.

CaptainShuddup says

What a bunch of Mamby Pamby suckers people have become. Sitting around on their asses waiting to be graded, rated and told their worth.

Here's the thing, in the Civil Engineering example, when a person is working on a construction/facilities project, as a junior, more likely than not, data collection will be a large part of his job, as well as interacting with the construction crews.

At that time, taking MS level courses in strength of materials, hydraulics, etc, will be supplemented by how it's actually used in the field.

Dan8267 says

Rin says

Another plea for ppl to attend graduate school

Yes, we need more advanced degrees to fill all those jobs at McDonald's and Walmart.

CaptainShuddup says

...and as much as $120K a year for ANYONE who believes in them self.

What a bunch of Mamby Pamby suckers people have become. Sitting around on their asses waiting to be graded, rated and told their worth.

We would need advanced degrees to replace the H1 visas. China, India and the rest of the world are turning out advanced degrees at an ever increasing rate. We need to be competitive. The choice is either to import qualified employees or produce them here. I would pick the latter.

Seems like a nice sales pitch.
Come to our school we need your tuition money. The debt & finding a job is your problem.

Strategist says

We would need advanced degrees to replace the H1 visas.

No, you simply need to hire the existing ppl, who're either already in college, or in some postdoc/adjunct prof role, with no future.

Most employers do not count advanced degrees as work experience.

I'd even say that the elite Wharton MBA, is a finishing school, so that a junior analyst for an investment bank, can re-brand himself as a senior analyst, junior director.

The programs where the actual schoolwork is a part of the job is being a doctor and to a lesser extent, a lawyer.

Rin says

Strategist says

We would need advanced degrees to replace the H1 visas.

No, you simply need to hire the existing ppl, who're either already in college, or in some postdoc/adjunct prof role, with no future.

Most employers do not count advanced degrees as work experience.

I'd even say that the elite Wharton MBA, is a finishing school, so that a junior analyst for an investment bank, can re-brand himself as a senior analyst, junior director.

The programs where the actual schoolwork is a part of the job is being a doctor and to a lesser extent, a lawyer.

Most graduate students are from other countries.
Check this out....

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/07/12/new-report-shows-dependence-us-graduate-programs-foreign-students#sthash.hTHCQMki.dpbs

Strategist says

Most graduate students are from other countries.

Check this out....

Yes, this has been going on now, for almost 20 years or so.

But here's the thing, regardless of the profile, employers do not see graduate school as a substitute for work experience with the exception of accounting MS courses being applied to the pre-CPA qualifier.

When I'd started out of college, in R&D, I was for the most part, overqualified for an entry level job. Soon afterwards, I'd started plotting my way out of R&D, and into IT, with the hope of landing in finance, which is where I am today.

New Renter here, unlike me, went through the whole PhD route, to pretty much discover the same thing. If we're talking about bailing, then why should future generations of Americans want to be exploited by MBA types either?

Rin says

Strategist says

Most graduate students are from other countries.

Check this out....

Yes, this has been going on now, for almost 20 years or so.

But here's the thing, regardless of the profile, employers do not see graduate school as a substitute for work experience with the exception of accounting MS courses being applied to the pre-CPA qualifier.

When I'd started out of college, in R&D, I was for the most part, overqualified for an entry level job. Soon afterwards, I'd started plotting my way out of R&D, and into IT, with the hope of landing in finance, which is where I am today.

New Renter here, unlike me, went through the whole PhD route, to pretty much discover the same thing. If we're talking about bailing, then why should future generations of Americans want to be exploited by MBA types either?

LOL. I was in the same boat 27 years ago. Degree after degree, but never saw a paycheck. Many jobs do require advanced degrees especially in R&D. We need more life saving drugs, gadgets to make our life better, cutting edge technology in energy, aircraft, space exploration, electronics, medicine etc etc etc.

Strategist says

We need more life saving drugs, gadgets to make our life better, cutting edge technology in energy, aircraft, space exploration, electronics, medicine etc etc etc.

If MBA-logists are in charge, then there's no *we*.

As long as our industries are ruled by defective middle managers, then there's no hope that education will change anything.

If we took the field of engineering as an example and lined up all of the new grads who had BS versus MS degrees, I wonder if you would be able to determine who was from each camp.

Analyzer says

If we took the field of engineering as an example and lined up all of the new grads who had BS versus MS degrees, I wonder if you would be able to determine who was from each camp.

My guess, given the fact that a lot of ppl see engineering, as a stepping stone towards business... a third of a BS holders would be looking at team lead-product management, consulting, pre-sales engineering, and other job titles of that sort, which would translate into a path for B-school later. The MS holders would be aiming at roles such as facilities specialist, translational work, etc.

Analyzer says

BS versus MS

In other words, the former group drank less of the Kool-Aid, basically treating the degree like a degree, whereas the latter one, is half-way between being rational and believing that a STEM education puts 'em in some higher echelon in life.

Strategist says

LOL. I was in the same boat 27 years ago. Degree after degree, but never saw a paycheck. Many jobs do require advanced degrees especially in R&D. We need more life saving drugs, gadgets to make our life better, cutting edge technology in energy, aircraft, space exploration, electronics, medicine etc etc etc.

Cannon fodder needed, apply within.

New Renter says

Strategist says

LOL. I was in the same boat 27 years ago. Degree after degree, but never saw a paycheck. Many jobs do require advanced degrees especially in R&D. We need more life saving drugs, gadgets to make our life better, cutting edge technology in energy, aircraft, space exploration, electronics, medicine etc etc etc.

Cannon fodder needed, apply within.

Yes, and today, the sycophantic screams of STEM shortage, "we need more education", and so forth, has hit a frequency level, which has exceeded the original 1988 NSF claim of STEM shortage by 2000.

I think this is Kurzweil's Singularity but in this case, a Singularity of chanting the same lie, again and again, until it's the only thing ppl can regurgitate whether or not they actually believe it.

Not so much Kurzweil as Goebbels.

New Renter says

not so much Kurzweil as Goebbels.

A mix because in Goebbel's case, ppl actually believed it. There, there was no day-to-day counterpoint.

Here, it's a frequency where in effect, each wave cancels out the other, however, given constant pulsations, ppl just say it mindlessly.

So we have students who can't find work w/ huge debt, postdocs w/ no future, adjuncts everywhere, another 2K layoffs at DuPont, R&D jobs sent to Asia, etc. Ppl are seeing all that but then, chant 'shortage' because that's what's expected to be chanted.

Even Goebbels couldn't pull off a contradiction like that one. Realize, much of the Third Reich had employment.

Dan8267 says

Yes, we need more advanced degrees to fill all those jobs at McDonald's and Walmart.

zzyzzx says

Well, as of ten years ago, human resources had determined that all paralegals must have a BA degree, to be seen at a law firm. So by virtue of changing requirements, we can make more and more jobs appear to require a college degree.

Rin says

New Renter says

Strategist says

LOL. I was in the same boat 27 years ago. Degree after degree, but never saw a paycheck. Many jobs do require advanced degrees especially in R&D. We need more life saving drugs, gadgets to make our life better, cutting edge technology in energy, aircraft, space exploration, electronics, medicine etc etc etc.

Cannon fodder needed, apply within.

Yes, and today, the sycophantic screams of STEM shortage, "we need more education", and so forth, has hit a frequency level, which has exceeded the original 1988 NSF claim of STEM shortage by 2000.

Can you guys tell me how, without advanced degrees we can create new life saving drugs and inventions that make our life better here on earth?
The greatest resource we have is the human mind. Lets fully use it.

Strategist says

Can you guys tell me how, without advanced degrees we can create new life saving drugs and inventions that make our life better here on earth?

The failure is not in our producing more educated citizens. The failure is in capitalism not utilizing those human resources. Again, capitalism is obsolete. It doesn't scale with technology because it revolves around the self-interests of a few non-producing owners rather than multitudes of wealth creators.

Strategist says

Can you guys tell me how, without advanced degrees we can create new life saving drugs and inventions that make our life better here on earth?

The greatest resource we have is the human mind. Lets fully use it.

Right now, advanced degrees have created an army, yes a standing army, of postdocs and adjunct professors.

The term, gypsy scholar, was coined to depict those, who bounce around between universities, doing teaching stints, here and there, will little hope of long term employment.

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/01/24/house-committee-report-highlights-plight-adjunct-professors#sthash.p3X8Nbaq.dpbs

With the above stated, how are individuals, if they're not already rich, suppose to make life better on earth?

If you want a guaranteed high income, become an industrial products salesman. Things like hydraulic pumps and electrical panels.

Those guys make six figures, and if one industry busts, you can easily move to another.

John Bailo says

If you want a guaranteed high income, become an industrial products salesman. Things like hydraulic pumps and electrical panels.

Those guys make six figures, and if one industry busts, you can easily move to another.

In many ways, I'm a salesman for the hedge fund I work at. And yes, sales is where it's at, esp if it's commission driven.

In my firm's case, the added funds, increases the P/L, which increases my bonus.

For other companies, it's commission based.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Can you guys tell me how, without advanced degrees we can create new life saving drugs and inventions that make our life better here on earth?

The failure is not in our producing more educated citizens. The failure is in capitalism not utilizing those human resources. Again, capitalism is obsolete. It doesn't scale with technology because it revolves around the self-interests of a few non-producing owners rather than multitudes of wealth creators.

Capitalism does not fully utilize all resources at its disposal during recessions and slowdowns. Other then that capitalism will utilize all resources at its disposal because that is how they make their money. We all agree the goal of capitalists is to make the maximum money they can make.
By the way the nations that are the most wealthy use capitalism the most. Take the example of China 50 years ago. A loser of a nation. Since the 1980's it embarked on improving its economy utilizing capitalism, resulting in spectacular achievements in the standard of living for one fifth of humanity.

Strategist says

Other then that capitalism will utilize all resources at its disposal because that is how they make their money. We all agree the goal of capitalists is to make the maximum money they can make.

So instead of doing research & development, I'm yapping on the phone and relaying IMs with clients all day. If that's a great use of resources then I've got a stock tip for you.

John Bailo says

If you want a guaranteed high income, become an industrial products salesman. Things like hydraulic pumps and electrical panels.

Those guys make six figures, and if one industry busts, you can easily move to another.

True, but such products are used in factories... which we dont have in the USA anymore. Ouch!

Strategist says

Capitalism does not fully utilize all resources at its disposal during recessions and slowdowns.

It doesn't do so during boom times either, at least in many fields.

In spite of Big Pharma, most medical breakthroughs are discovered during government-funded research.

This is very troubling to me - not being sarcastic - because I think that in many situations the private sector should do better than the government, and this is one of them.

Maybe it's the patent system, or tax incentives, or MBA culture (PROFITS THIS QUARTER, FUCK THE FUTURE).

Rin says

Strategist says

Other then that capitalism will utilize all resources at its disposal because that is how they make their money. We all agree the goal of capitalists is to make the maximum money they can make.

So instead of doing research & development, I'm yapping on the phone and relaying IMs with clients all day. If that's a great use of resources then I've got a stock tip for you.

Let me guess, Enron.
I have a stock pick for you. AAPL, ITB. Trust me on that.
Hey, your'e a capitalist.