patrick.net

Ppl, we've got to stop these STEM hurrah stories.

IMHO, this kid will be badly abused by either academic/research advisors or be taken for a ride by some venture capitalists a/o their plants in his company.

Seriously, given today's free internet streaming of classes, I'd be just like this guy, having finished much of my college learning, in place of ordinary high school.

To do real research, you need your own source of funding. You cannot work for someone else.

Calm down Rin, this kid is 16 years old. He's also probably Indian or Pakistani which likely means his parents have convinced him engineering is the path to a lucrative, stable career. I've known several kids in that boat. When he moves away to college he will have his chance to escape

New Renter says

his parents have convinced him engineering is the path to a lucrative, stable career. I've known several kids in that boat. When he moves away to college he will have his chance to escape

Ok, however, whenever I hear 'CalTech', as 1st choice, it reminds of those signs of faux homeless mathematicians saying "I'll derive a solution for food".

If I hear MD-PhD ... meaning, *no debt upon graduation, but ok, I'll put up with a d*ck advisor for some time* to become a debt free anesthesiologist, then you'll hear me, cheering in the aisles.

How do you get an AS without having a diploma? I thought that was a requirement.

But why even get 3 AS degrees, what's the point?

Rin says

New Renter says

his parents have convinced him engineering is the path to a lucrative, stable career. I've known several kids in that boat. When he moves away to college he will have his chance to escape

Ok, however, whenever I hear 'CalTech', as 1st choice, it reminds of those signs of faux homeless mathematicians saying "I'll derive a solution for food".

If I hear MD-PhD ... meaning, *no debt upon graduation, but ok, I'll put up with a d*ck advisor for some time* to become a debt free anesthesiologist, then you'll hear me, cheering in the aisles.

Until of course mistake-free robots replace anesthesiologists.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303983904579093252573814132

http://io9.com/386691/meet-mcsleepy-the-worlds-first-robot-anesthesiologist

New Renter says

Until of course mistake-free robots replace anesthesiologists.

Well, there are still areas like dermatology, where a person wants his acne prodded by humans wearing gloves. Yuck!

RedStar says

How do you get an AS without having a diploma? I thought that was a requirement.

Not always.

RedStar says

But why even get 3 AS degrees, what's the point?

I'm sure that he could have read the books on his own and taken ala carte classes but his parents are probably the type, who think that more certificates mean 'better learning'.

Usually, it's these kinds of persons, who're fooled by academicians, to waste countless years on data collection/analysis, to make his advisor's lab a success, before getting a PhD, and then finding himself ripped off by some R&D chief.

Rin says

New Renter says

Until of course mistake-free robots replace anesthesiologists.

Well, there are still areas like dermatology, where a person wants his acne prodded by humans wearing gloves. Yuck!

Robot Dermatologists:

http://practicaldermatology.com/2012/08/robotic-surgery-with-new-technology-come-new-opportunities

Robotic teledermatopathology from an African dermatology clinic (Robots AND offshoring, what's not to love?)

http://www.eblue.org/article/S0190-9622%2814%2900944-X/abstract

Robot surgeons: As systems like this one get more intelligent even surgeons days are numbered:

http://www.davincisurgery.com/

First it will be remote access surgery where a cheap foreign surgeon operates the robot remotely and the patient is taken care of by on site assisting staff. A small staff of on site surgeons can handle any emergencies that come up.

New Renter says

Calm down Rin, this kid is 16 years old. He's also probably Indian or Pakistani which likely means his parents have convinced him engineering is the path to a lucrative, stable career. I've known several kids in that boat. When he moves away to college he will have his chance to escape

Don't we need people like him if we are to stay ahead in technology? He will undoubtedly get scholarships all the way to PhD.
I don't know wether he will make a $billion in stock options or just become a boring professor, but I do know he is the natural talent the world needs to make life better for all of us.
We need to clone him.

Strategist says

but I do know he is the natural talent the world needs to make life better for all of us.

We need to clone him.

What needs to happen is that his parents need to become rich, on their own, and hire him into their own R&D institute.

Otherwise, he stands to become cannon fodder in some academic institute where sure, he publishes some papers, but the work is owned by his advisor and university.

Rin says

Strategist says

but I do know he is the natural talent the world needs to make life better for all of us.

We need to clone him.

What needs to happen is that his parents need to become rich, on their own, and hire him into their own R&D institute.

Otherwise, he stands to become cannon fodder in some academic institute where sure, he publishes some papers, but the work is owned by his advisor and university.

I'm sure he's smart enough to figure out all that on his own. What's important is, people like him make a difference to this world. His work, one way or the other, will benefit society.

Strategist says

I'm sure he's smart enough to figure out all that on his own.

I've seldom found this to be the case. I know of these types of geniuses and many either end up in postdocs or burn out, as their expertise/know-how don't typically jive with the ppl who control the funding.

Here's Bill Sidis' story, as a child prodigy ...

http://www.sidis.net/Sperling.htm
http://www.sidis.net/BioWilliamJamesSidis.htm

So Sidis, being a child prodigy, youngest at Harvard age ~11, was continually hounded by the press and couldn't adapt to working for the academy. He did odd jobs and paid for his own individual studies before his death at age 47.

Here's a nice excerpt on that idea ...

"because Harvard's youngest graduate was as an adult engaged at mere labor, he was therefore a failure. This despite the fact that many great scientific discoveries and works of art have been made by persons who were not employees of university corporations.

The list is impressive. Here are a few.

Einstein developed his theory of relativity while working as an assistant patent examiner. Presumably when a supervisor came by he slipped his worksheets under the interesting descriptions and diagrams of devices.

Newton? Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Descartes? Artillery advisor to his king―coordinate geometry.
Philosopher Charles Sanders Peirce? Hundreds of articles for
serious journals, encyclopedias and magazines. Painter Paul
Gauguin was a bank teller until he quit to pursue his art full time.
Composer Charles Ives? Insurance. (He once said business
life made his music richer.) "

Strategist says

What's important is, people like him make a difference to this world. His work, one way or the other, will benefit society.

Why do you think I'm trying to make my fortune at this hedge fund, and retire to do research. I know that in order to make a contribution, other ppl cannot control your work.

Strategist says

New Renter says

Calm down Rin, this kid is 16 years old. He's also probably Indian or Pakistani which likely means his parents have convinced him engineering is the path to a lucrative, stable career. I've known several kids in that boat. When he moves away to college he will have his chance to escape

Don't we need people like him if we are to stay ahead in technology? He will undoubtedly get scholarships all the way to PhD.

I don't know wether he will make a $billion in stock options or just become a boring professor, but I do know he is the natural talent the world needs to make life better for all of us.

We need to clone him.

Why don't you go back to school, slog it out in a STEM program all the way up to Ph.D. and see how the world thanks you for your accomplishments?

After all its up to YOU to make the world a better place for the rest of us.

New Renter says

Why don't you go back to school, slog it out in a STEM program all the way up to Ph.D. and see how the world thanks you for your accomplishments?

After all its up to YOU to make the world a better place for the rest of us.

Thanks New Renter.

Since I didn't attend graduate school myself, I wasn't in the position to do the alley-opp tomahawk jam.

Thanks for completing the play.

New Renter says

First it will be remote access surgery where a cheap foreign surgeon operates the robot remotely and the patient is taken care of by on site assisting staff. A small staff of on site surgeons can handle any emergencies that come up.

Ok, how about a pharmaceutical salesman?

New Renter says

Why don't you go back to school, slog it out in a STEM program all the way up to Ph.D. and see how the world thanks you for your accomplishments?

After all its up to YOU to make the world a better place for the rest of us.

I flunked Chemistry. :(

Rin says

New Renter says

First it will be remote access surgery where a cheap foreign surgeon operates the robot remotely and the patient is taken care of by on site assisting staff. A small staff of on site surgeons can handle any emergencies that come up.

Ok, how about a pharmaceutical salesman?

Why don't you guys become Pharmacists? Starting pay $150,000, easy to find a job.

Strategist says

I flunked Chemistry. :(

Consider yourself one of the lucky ones.

Many, who shine in the physical sciences, suffer in the end, sans the premed, pre Patent law, or pre-finance/business types.

Strategist says

Rin says

New Renter says

First it will be remote access surgery where a cheap foreign surgeon operates the robot remotely and the patient is taken care of by on site assisting staff. A small staff of on site surgeons can handle any emergencies that come up.

Ok, how about a pharmaceutical salesman?

Why don't you guys become Pharmacists? Starting pay $150,000, easy to find a job.

We were talking about the kid.

I already work for a hedge fund. I've gone the way of evil, though not a wolf, but perhaps, a *Bobcat of Wall Street*.

Rin says

Strategist says

Rin says

New Renter says

First it will be remote access surgery where a cheap foreign surgeon operates the robot remotely and the patient is taken care of by on site assisting staff. A small staff of on site surgeons can handle any emergencies that come up.

Ok, how about a pharmaceutical salesman?

Why don't you guys become Pharmacists? Starting pay $150,000, easy to find a job.

We were talking about the kid.

I already work for a hedge fund. I've gone the way of evil, though not a wolf, but perhaps, a *Bobcat of Wall Street*.

So, you raking it in?

Strategist says

I already work for a hedge fund. I've gone the way of evil, though not a wolf, but perhaps, a *Bobcat of Wall Street*.

So, you raking it in?

Well, I'm in the starting dozen, and the P/L just started a few years ago.

Now that I'd left STEM work for good, I realize that the big ppl in finance/trading, do not live in the same world as the rest of those, who toil for a living.

I'd never changed my lifestyle so my mortgage is paid off and I'm saving for retirement.

Being on the phone all day, however, has turned me into an animal of sorts.

Strategist says

Why don't you guys become Pharmacists? Starting pay $150,000

Average pay $114k:

http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/pharmacist/salary

Strategist says

easy to find a job.

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/life/overdose-pharmacy-students

Pharmacists are already on the robot chopping block.

singularityhub.com/2012/06/03/meet-robot-rx-the-robot-pharmacist-doling-out-350-million-doses-per-year/

Strategist says

New Renter says

Why don't you go back to school, slog it out in a STEM program all the way up to Ph.D. and see how the world thanks you for your accomplishments?

After all its up to YOU to make the world a better place for the rest of us.

I flunked Chemistry. :(

Don't let THAT stop you! Never give up!

Rin says

New Renter says

Why don't you go back to school, slog it out in a STEM program all the way up to Ph.D. and see how the world thanks you for your accomplishments?

After all its up to YOU to make the world a better place for the rest of us.

Thanks New Renter.

Since I didn't attend graduate school myself, I wasn't in the position to do the alley-opp tomahawk jam.

Thanks for completing the play.

Someone has to beat some sense into there people!

New Renter says

Strategist says

New Renter says

Why don't you go back to school, slog it out in a STEM program all the way up to Ph.D. and see how the world thanks you for your accomplishments?

After all its up to YOU to make the world a better place for the rest of us.

I flunked Chemistry. :(

Don't let THAT stop you! Never give up!

OK, I never took it in college, just high school. All those flying electrons made me dizzy. And the periodic table made me fall asleep. What's a guy to do?
I remember H2SO4, which I wanted pour over my teachers head. I also remember Au, I wanted lots of it. Other then that I thought I'd leave it to the geniuses with glasses.

Rin says

Well, there are still areas like dermatology

Pays peanuts.

Straw Man says

Rin says

Well, there are still areas like dermatology

Pays peanuts.

Ever heard the joke, "What do elephants and scientists have in common?"

"They both work for peanuts"

A perfect score on the SAT ?

I've known a several people that got perfect scores on the Math SAT, including my brother and also a close childhood friend did as well. But perfect score on the verbal too (not just a high score) ? I can tell you that's pretty rare.

The kid is gifted, not just because he knows a lot, but because of the kind of focus involved in getting a perfect score. And he will get a full ride to a top school (unless his parents are high income), and the world is wide open as far as possibilities go. Chances are very high that he will use that intelligence of his to make good choices with what he does.

OR he might just pursue money.

Either way the next dozen years or so should be very interesting for him. I would encourage him to keep an open mind for at least the next 3 years and just study a lot of different things.

marcus says

Chances are very high that he will use that intelligence of his to make good choices with what he does.

There's an olde saying for law school graduates.

The 'A' students become professors; the 'B' students become judges, but it's the 'C' students who make all the money.

Of course, grade inflation has changed all that but the principle remains.

If you really think that academic stuff like GPA/SAT/LSAT/MCAT etc make successful ppl then you haven't really worked in the real world.

I suspect, that if this fellow isn't a very outgoing/social kid, chances are, he'll be a postdoc and be taken advantage of by the academic establishment.

Read the Bill Sidis story in the links in the above postings.

Rin says

If you really think that academic stuff like GPA/SAT/LSAT/MCAT etc make successful ppl then you haven't really worked in the real world.

THe two people I was thinking of who got perfect Math SAT scores, were (and are) very successful. One has been retired very well off since he was about 56. The other one of my older brothers is very successful (including financially)and still working because he likes his work and because it's important work.

So you don't think most guys that get perfect Math scores on their SATs and go to MIT of CalTech end up being successful ?

I would say there are parts of the real world that you know next to nothing about.

marcus says

So you don't think most guys that get perfect Math scores on their SATs and go to MIT of CalTech end up being successful ?

I would say there are parts of the real world that you know next to nothing about.

Well, I have a perfect Math SAT but you don't see me bragging.

Replace the word, "most" with many or more than 35-40%.

I do know a number of them and they work at Kendall Sq, right next to MIT. And really, it's because their alma mater working in those places hires 'em, right off the campus, and gives 'em that first/second job.

Afterwards, like everyone else, they fade away because being able to simply nail exams, *bust the curve* or what have you, isn't what it takes to really succeed in the work world.

Think corporate politics, dealing with MBA-ologists, etc.

Rin says

being able to simply nail exams, *bust the curve* or what have you, isn't what it takes to really succeed in the work world.

I know several people who nailed exams, went to Caltech, and are not setting the world on fire by any means - doing no better or worse than others who went to bad state schools didn't work. I also know one guy who had perfect SATs and 5s on 12 AP exams who nearly dropped out of college.

This does not mean that they are living dull/meaningless lives, but life is such a matter of intangible skills and luck that we should not buy into the idea of wunderkinds having it made.

One of the most successful people I know never learned his multiplication tables, schmoozed and bullshitted his way through school, barely finishing college, and is now in management at an extremely famous software firm. From the first day of freshman year (h.s.) until graduation day, he kissed ass to the most popular seniors - in fact, senior year was hard for him, because he had fewer asses above him to kiss, so he seemed lost. When I run into him now, he can't stop talking about himself. And it works on me, too: I actually like the guy, as amusing/irritating as I find him.

I am kind of surprised that this news item is getting any interest. Yawn.

HydroCabron says

I know several people who nailed exams, went to Caltech, and are not setting the world on fire by any means. I also know one guy who had perfect SATs and 5s on 12 AP exams who nearly dropped out of college.

Well, no one needs to set the world of fire, however, ppl do need to be able to follow their creativity and passions.

What academics and others preach is that simply logging the hours, doing homeworks, getting A's, publishing papers, yada, yada, means that in the end, there's a pot of gold waiting where the rainbow ends.

This is the common lie, which folks like Marcus and others, believe.

The truth is that today, I'm making a ton of money, being a salesman for a hedge fund. Being a BS artist is not my passion in life and this isn't what I originally wanted to do but it's necessary, to get out with a bronze parachute, to do what I really want with my life.

Rin says

What academics and others preach is that simply logging the hours, doing homeworks, getting A's, publishing papers, yada, yada, means that in the end, there's a pot of gold waiting where the rainbow ends.

I try to cut professors some slack, because few have worked more than 2-3 years in the real world, and I believe it takes about 5 for the brainwashing of academe to fade away. Academe selects for people who never worked outside it, and never paid much attention to the real world, other than to feel superior to it.

I am still amazed by how different the culture and values of the outside world are from what surrounded me when I was in school. The difference is so stark that I wonder if sending kids to elite/selective liberal arts, Ivies, or MIT/Caltech/Harvey Mudd sorts of places is very bad for them. I am dead serious.

HydroCabron says

I am still amazed by how different the culture and values of the outside world are from what surrounded me when I was in school. The difference is so stark that I wonder if sending kids to elite/selective liberal arts, Ivies, or MIT/Caltech/Harvey Mudd sorts of places is very bad for them. I am dead serious.

In all honesty, the purpose of those schools is to help students get recruited by management consulting or financial firms, nothing else. Thus, those elite firms, like McKinsey, can tell the world that they recruit from the 'best American universities'. Otherwise, they don't offer much value.

Where ppl like Marcus and others often get it wrong is that they confuse the submission of a homework assignment and then getting feedback like 97%, having this direct causation on some success in a creative (or discovery) endeavor.

Like that flash of steadfast concentration (the R&D worker bee) then spills over into some contemplative idea generation machine, along with a task force of patent attorneys.

What the parents need to teach their prodigy son is that if he has an original idea, DO NOT write it down in a work or academic lab environment. Keep it at home. And unfortunately, many parents will never teach this obvious fact.

Thus, as time goes by, those original ideas (that is if he has any) become the property of someone else and before you know, the kid's advisor has patents under his name or his company's R&D director, now has a new product launch division.

And yes, when that occurs, very often, the kid gets sacked (if he doesn't play along as a peon) and is then, barred from using similar ideas elsewhere due to anti-compete agreements. Of course, who in academia will teach this principle? None, because they depend upon the pilfering of younger ppl's ideas and know-how.

Rin says

What the parents need to teach their prodigy son is that if he has an original idea, DO NOT write it down in a work or academic lab environment. Keep it at home. And unfortunately, many parents will never teach this obvious fact.

The problem with this is that an idea by itself is not worth very much. Investors want proof of concept at the very least. If the idea is just a new program that the kid can write at home "in his free time" that's one thing. If however its say a new cancer drug that will take real resources that one can't find in a typical garage and will be well outside the budget of a typical STEM worker unless s/he has a meth operation on the side.

Rin says

This is the common lie, which folks like Marcus and others, believe.

I'd prefer you wouldn't speak for what I believe. One would think you could make your point without trolling me.

What I think, based on observation is that the kind of students who get perfect SAT scores, mostly As as grades, and a lot of 5s in AP classes, have a fairly rare combination of three things

1) intellectual aptitude
2) work ethic
3) focus

All 3 of these are pretty much required, to be this kind of student, but these people will differ in which of these they are the strongest in.

I am not making absolute generalizations, but if people show a rare combination of these 3 traits as teenagers, yes, often they are going to be fairly successful later in life as well. And sometimes very much so.

This is not to suggest that academic success is necessary for success later. In fact it's obvious that since 99% of children do not possess this combination of traits (plus the motivation to be so successful academically), you don't need to be as smart as one of these kids to conclude that most highly successful people do not have this kind of academic background.

marcus says

but if people show a rare combination of these 3 traits as teenagers, yes, often they are going to be fairly successful later in life as well. And sometimes very much so.

The reason why I depart from this line of thinking is that the 4.0 - Science UGPA / 42 - MCAT / 2 undergrad publications profile, while is great at let's say getting accepted to a Johns Hopkins medical school (MD program), is not the vector of what gets ppl ahead at a Boston Consulting Group, JP Morgan, or even my firm, where having business skills, plus a bit of sales and networking support, gets one into the higher levels.

And you're correct, if you attend Hopkins MD and then later, finish your residency in neurosurgery there or at a peer institute like Mayo Clinic, then you're right, you'll be successful. And in this case, it's clearly the USMLE exam scores and medical GPA which got you there, along with recommendations from your residency directors. Outside of a field, like medicine, this sort of direct causation between schoolwork and success is less likely.

marcus says

you don't need to be as smart as one of these kids to conclude that most highly successful people do not have this kind of academic background.

In general, the folks with MBAs (including the Whartons of the world) are able to get the B+'s and A-'s, however, their greatest talent is forming associations with an angle for self-promotion. It's that latter skill, which makes 'em Jr Equity partner at an investment bank or a COO of a Fortune 1000, not the fact that they won some mathematics contests in college. All of our senior partners here are of the above quality.

Rin says

In general, the folks with MBAs (including the Whartons of the world) are able to get the B+'s and A-'s, however, their greatest talent is forming associations with an angle for self-promotion. It's that latter skill, which makes 'em Jr Equity partner at an investment bank or a COO of a Fortune 1000, not the fact that they won some mathematics contests in college. All of our senior partners here are of the above quality.

So... long story short, it's not about accomplishing anything? It's just about making friends and promoting yourself.

theoakman says

Rin says

In general, the folks with MBAs (including the Whartons of the world) are able to get the B+'s and A-'s, however, their greatest talent is forming associations with an angle for self-promotion. It's that latter skill, which makes 'em Jr Equity partner at an investment bank or a COO of a Fortune 1000, not the fact that they won some mathematics contests in college. All of our senior partners here are of the above quality.

So... long story short, it's not about accomplishing anything? It's just about making friends and promoting yourself.

Well, you can kinda have your cake and eat it as well, however, if the seniors at this firm, didn't back my friends and I with real clients (& their clients' capital), we wouldn't be in business today despite our so-called *original* use of phase boundary & fuzzy control theory in the overall system of risk projection/containment.

Plus, our first deal was won by my presentation. And that's when I understood that sales was 'it'. My pitch had little do with applied chemistry or electrical engineering ideas but stressed the culture of the organization and how it addressed the major client concerns.

Personally, I think we're lucky which is why I'm calling it quits after this job. This isn't a career for a real engineering person. Like I said, I'm the *Bobcat of Wall St*. To survive long term, you need to be the Wolf.

And these senior partners are Wall St fellas, Wharton/Columbia b-school types. I think one's also got an additional law degree in there, though I'm not sure if it's Penn, NYU, or London. But you get the picture, pedigree with Wall St and City of London connections, not academicians and scholars.

Here we go again ...

http://news.yahoo.com/video/program-prepares-students-careers-stem-042154723.html

So in this propaganda piece, hands-on will get ppl to study STEM.

So when 25% of freshman HSers want to major in STEM, by senior year, that number is down to 12% but having a role model, along with hands-on experience, will prevent that attrition. At least that's the theory.

Since I'd gone through STEM, here's what educators don't get ... professors do not want to give everyone B+'s and higher in the field. The idea is to get enough kids to get C's (or below) in weed out courses like statistical thermodynamics, signals & systems, and so forth. In other words, the homeworks and exams are suppose to be hard and aren't suppose to appeal to this 'hands-on' technician type of careerist.

By default or design, STEM is suppose to be a leaky pipeline!

The end result is that senior STEM graduates are prepared to enter graduate school for the applied sciences. Once again, why doesn't anyone talk about this?

If a person wants hands-on, he should go to a trade school and become a machinist. Thus, this STEM focus is a farce.

If anything, I think kids are smart for not opting for STEM careers, outside of premed, pre-Patent law, pre-business/finance.