patrick.net

Call TJ Fannon

http://www.tjfannon.com/

I had the exact same issue (blower on a very old unit). After getting 2 snowjob quotes, I called Fannon & they replaced it for $165

As the tech left, I thanked him for his honesty. He responded saying, the company policy is they figure if they are honest, we will call them back for more work when the time comes...

And they were right. 2 years later the whole unit went and I happily paid them the $4,100 for the replacement unit. Not sure if they serve you all the way out in Reston, but its worth a shot.

Thanks CDon. I'll definitely call them next time I have an issue.

I live in Baltimore and I have had no trouble getting HVAC parts here. Usually I mail order them, but I have bought generic motors at Grainger and installed them as blower motors in a furnace. Last motor like that was around $100, and came with a new capacitor.

Motor controller would be a proprietary thing that you would have to mail order if you wanted to get a decent price for it yes.

In so far as the HVAC people being crooks, they are. Just like a transmission shop, they often refuse to fix anything and will always try to get you to replace the whole thing for way too much money, which is why I fix my own transmissions at home.

I would have posted this in the BULLSHIT section

The motor that I have is a variable speed motor. This is a 3 phase DC motor with a controller that converts 120V AC + a speed signals to a power signal that will drive the motor.

These motors are useful, because they can run at lower speeds for extended periods. For example, if someone had the fan on but no heating / cooling it would run at a lower speed. If someone turned on the AC, it goes at a higher speed. When the AC shuts off, but the evaporator is still cool, the fan can run at slow speed until the evaporator is no longer cool. It also ramps up to speed slowly, so that you can hardly hear it come on.

These variable speed motors are more expensive than single speed motors with a start capacitor. For example, the cheapest replacement that I found was $750 online for the whole motor or $320 for the controller. These motors should not be that expensive, but you are right. They have a little proprietary program on a flash chip that makes them specific to the brand and model HVAC system that you have. Thus, the manufacturer has you over the proverbial barrel.

My system, despite being 20 yrs old is 14 SEER. The replacement he was trying to sell me has a single speed motor and was 13 SEER. He, of course, said the new one would be better.

The main reason that I posted this is that I thought it would be useful information for people who are maintaining a house or 3. Plus, I was hoping to get some more insight. I'm not sure what the best section would be for that. I figured that the Misc section gets a good bit of traffic these days.

For $300, if it buys a year or two, I'll be happy. Hopefully, it'll be more like 5.

My furnace is older and doesn't have all that newer fancy stuff to break. I like it that way.

Being in the auto repair business and doing my own HVAC repairs, I can kind of relate to not wanting to fix just one thing on an older system. People think if you fix something and charge money, you have bestowed immortality upon the entire rest of the unit, and when something else goes wrong even years later, you get calls like "It's doing the same thing you fixed before, I expect you to come fix it NAO!!1!! and not charge me a dime!"

On a leased building, I nursed a 60s vintage Chrysler Airtemp roof unit along for three years. First the blower motor went, so I bought a new one for $39 from Surplus Center. While installing it, the special rubber mounts all broke, so I had to fabricate replacements. ALL of the hardware was rusted to heck, making every step a fight.

THEN the compressor contactor failed knocking out one phase and causing loud disturbing humming, I found a generic surplus replacement for less than $10. Lots of fun trying to troubleshoot using a schematic that is as brittle and incomplete as a Dead Sea Scroll.

A month or so later it "did the exact same thing" but this time the problem was the circuit breaker in the landlord's back room... someone did the "turn off every breaker instead of finding the one that's tripped" trick, and one of the phases didn't make contact when switched back on, which I couldn't resolve until they were open again on Monday.

Then the thermocouple failed so no heat. I found a suitable substitute on ebay that plugged right in, and during replacement EVERY piece of hardware was intractibly stuck, and a special little elbow for the pilot snapped off. I wound up fixing that using parts from a disused shop heater... hours of work to fix the pilot piping and get the thermocouple sensor installed.

Bottom line, it was a LOT of work on my part, but for under $100 plus time I kept that old piece of s#$@ running for the three years we leased that building, but the ineffectual dick of a building owner will probably end up dropping five large for a new one when something else breaks after not very long.

Automan Empire says

Being in the auto repair business and doing my own HVAC repairs, I can kind of relate to not wanting to fix just one thing on an older system.

I also was in the auto repair business and do my own HVAC repairs and repairs for friends. In 3rd world countries like mexico, anyone can buy refrigerant and any parts (cheap too), open a system and vent it to the atmosphere or recover part of it in an old tank sitting in a bucket of ice.

The Carrier parts supplier said that the would not sell to consumers to protect the company. The guy said that a consumer might put a part in and screw up their whole system, and then blame the parts supplier. This seems like a silly non-issue to me. Just have a policy that all sales are final and the part is not covered by warranty if installed by an unlicensed person. Otherwise, have a restocking fee if the part is returned in good working order. They could even charge more for consumers, since this is a retail sale with a different warranty.

This isn't rocket science. The install requires pulling two wiring harnesses, pulling the fan out, swapping motors, putting it back, and plugging in the wire harnesses. It would be hard to fuck up. Replacing the motor controller is even easier, as you don't have to separate the motor drive shaft from the fan cage.

You can easily buy car parts that have much more difficult installs, and there are no issues with local sales, warranties, and returns.

komputodo says

In 3rd world countries like mexico, anyone can buy refrigerant and any parts (cheap too), open a system and vent it to the atmosphere or recover part of it in an old tank sitting in a bucket of ice.

I've owned a '53 Cadillac Series 62 coupe with factory AC for 25 years which now has 41K miles on it. This was the first year for factory installed AC, not counting '41 which made a handful of systems, and it has a direct drive compressor with no clutch--when the engine's turning, so is the compressor. It worked and cooled just fine until about three years ago when the compressor began making some noise. I don't put but about 500 miles a year on it, but didn't want to ruin the one year only compressor. Fortunately, a friend had some NOS cans of R-12 refrigerant oil which he gave me. I went to a couple of garages and they turned their noses up at me, only wanted to convert the system to 134A. I finally went to the third garage, their mechanic left the job he was working on when he saw the car. He found an old set of installation hoses, hooked them up and I started the car--when you turn the AC on, it activates a solenoid that places a restriction in the system to force the freon through the compressor--it rattled for about ten seconds, then when the oil reached the compressor, it quietened down completely and is still quiet--that was about two years ago. The mechanic enjoyed the car so much he didn't even charge me and I still have some oil left. A friend who lives in Monterrey and is a mechanic is coming for a visit in September and I'm going to ask him to bring me a supply of R-12 and oil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-kApClJikk

P N Dr Lo R says

A friend who lives in Monterrey and is a mechanic is coming for a visit in September and I'm going to ask him to bring me a supply of R-12 and oil.

R-12 is hard to come by, even in mexico. I haven't seen a can of it down here in more than 2 years.

YesYNot says

The motor that I have is a variable speed motor. This is a 3 phase DC motor with a controller that converts 120V AC + a speed signals to a power signal that will drive the motor.

I know, but you really don't need that. It's just extra crap that brakes.

The variable speed motor is for improved efficiency and comfort. I think it is the main difference between a 13 and 15 SEER systems the guy offered to install. Whether or not it pays for itself over time when you include repairing the damn thing is another question.

Are you suggesting that I could just put a single speed motor and capacitor in the current system and Jerry-rig the controls in some way, or that it is better to just order the cheaper / simpler system in the beginning?

My biggest gripe in this process was the hassle of dealing with the HVAC industry and obtaining parts. If it is fixed when the $300 part comes in, that is not to bad.

YesYNot says

Are you suggesting that I could just put a single speed motor and capacitor in the current system and Jerry-rig the controls in some way, or that it is better to just order the cheaper / simpler system in the beginning?

IMO, it'e better just to buy the simpler system in the first place. I thought the main reason for the variable speed on the fan is the soft start capability, which IMO is worthless to have. I also don't see how that can make the system more efficient either. when I stop my AC I just manually turn the fan on for a few minutes.

jazz music says

Essentially you are now a renter of your air-conditioner. Yes, they are THAT fucked up.

Yet still another reason why I used the crap out of my bedroom window unit and don't use my central air much.

Three appliance salesmen from Detroit figured out how to put AC in their Caddy for a road trip to Miami. On the way home they dropped into GM and told them what they did. They asked if they could get a new Caddy for this invention.

GM told them no. Instead GM puts the inventors names on every AC unit in their cars. Their names. Hi, Max and Norm.

Groan!

wiremite says

GM told them no. Instead GM puts the inventors names on every AC unit in their cars. Their names. Hi, Max and Norm.

You messed up the joke. First, it's Ford, not GM. Second, it's supposedly based on Henry Ford's anti-semitism because they are Jews who are brothers named Goldberg. Third, some people throw in a 4th brother -- Lowell, Hiram, Max, and Norman for Lo, Hi, Max, and Norm:

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/goldberg-brothers-ford-airconditioning.shtml

Sure enough, the $300 part did the trick.

YesYNot says

Sure enough, the $300 part did the trick.

That doesn't surprise me. A lot of these repair industries are a scam anyway and are solely meant to upsell you, as people said.

If your washing machine breaks, they will try to sell you a new machine instead of fixing the old one because the price they quote for fixing it is so exorbitant. For certain minor repairs, it's trivial to find a repair video on YouTube and buy the part online -- I've done it with a washing machine before myself.

YesYNot says

My system, despite being 20 yrs old is 14 SEER. The replacement he was trying to sell me has a single speed motor and was 13 SEER. He, of course, said the new one would be better.

Scratching my head on this one. SEER is a measure of energy efficiency right. If memory serves, SEER = BTU/watts used. So the 14 SEER should be cheaper to operate for the same level of cooling. WTF is your guy talking about?

YesYNot says

The Carrier parts supplier said that the would not sell to consumers to protect the company. The guy said that a consumer might put a part in and screw up their whole system, and then blame the parts supplier.

This is complete horse-shit. They want you to have a "Carrier-licensed" person do it, which means nothing other than we want to charge you more for fixing your stuff, even though it's not rocket science and even though air conditioners have barely changed conceptually in the last 30-50 years.

jazz music says

Essentially you are now a renter of your air-conditioner. Yes, they are THAT fucked up.

Exactly right. Some of this would be ripe for litigation except these assholes have you over a barrel. It's not like a car where you can easily obtain, store, and use a backup car. You can't get a backup air conditioner or backup furnace without spending a disproportionate amount of money, and then what do you do with it in the meantime and after you have your main one back up? So these guys are trying to fuck you in the ass. You can't go 4-6 years without an air conditioner while your case is in court.

YesYNot says

Sure enough, the $300 part did the trick.

How much is your time worth though? All that internet research can take awhile.. and then on top of that the installation time doing it yourself. I commend you if you can do it all in a reasonable amount of time though. But prepare for more stuff to go wrong. I repaired my 56" DLP HDTV the same way a few years ago.. it broke again a year later and needed another part. Which i replaced and it still wouldn't work. That was basically a crappy samsung set that they discontinued due to bad capacitors that caused lots of stuff to overheat.

My HVAC was 19 years old.. I just had it replace with an entry level 13 SEER American Standard system. I'm happy with my decision, it's hit close to 100 degrees the past month atleast once a week... and the system humms right a long.

corntrollio says

Scratching my head on this one. SEER is a measure of energy efficiency right. If memory serves, SEER = BTU/watts used. So the 14 SEER should be cheaper to operate for the same level of cooling. WTF is your guy talking about?

Yeah, my system is more efficient than the one he was trying to sell me. I don't know if he knew that, but he was just trying to make a sale. Being correct didn't seem to be important to him. He also told me it needed a new motor, when the controller was the only bad part.

BoomAndBustCycle says

How much is your time worth though? All that internet research can take awhile.

That's why I called the company in the first place. I'm not local, and I figured it would make more sense to pay to have it done. If the price was reasonable, I'd have gone for it. For several trips, it was about 6 hrs in the car, 2 hrs looking stuff up on the internet, and 1 hour doing the work. That is 9 hrs, and it saved about $1500 over what he was trying to charge me. At least I learned something. If the local douche retailers would have sold me a part, I'd have saved 4.5 hrs of driving.

YesYNot says

He also told me it needed a new motor, when the controller was the only bad part.

These guys aren't even real repairmen anymore. They are basically parts-change monkeys. Rather than analyze the problem, they just keep changing parts until something works and charge you ridiculous prices.

I've noticed the same thing at dealership service departments. If you get some of the master technicians, those guys know what they are doing, but there's no guarantee that you will get one of those people. The asshole service salesman does his best to ensure that you can never talk to a mechanic, so you don't know if a parts-change monkey or a real diagnostic guy will work on your car. That's why I recommend going to independent shops (in addition to paying cheaper rates -- but really it's about the expertise).

BoomAndBustCycle says

How much is your time worth though? All that internet research can take awhile.. and then on top of that the installation time doing it yourself.

For my washing machine, it was a few clicks, find the error code (which was what I guessed the problem was based on other posts on the forum), find the part, order it, wait 3 days for it to arrive, and spend 10-15 mins installing it (will be faster if that same part fails again).

I can do cell phone screens too. The first time it took me a long time because I was watching the YouTube instructions carefully, but since then, I can take the damn thing apart and put in a new screen fairly quickly.

There are forums for most everything now and a lot of people on those forums have a lot of expertise they are happy to share.

BoomAndBustCycle says

How much is your time worth though? All that internet research can take awhile.. and then on top of that the installation time doing it yourself. I commend you if you can do it all in a reasonable amount of time though

I never put a $$$ value on my time if I'm learning something new.

corntrollio says

For my washing machine, it was a few clicks, find the error code (which was what I guessed the problem was based on other posts on the forum), find the part, order it, wait 3 days for it to arrive, and spend 10-15 mins installing it (will be faster if that same part fails again).

I've also fixed my kenmore washing machine controller board a few times due to cracked, cold solder joints..I just reflowed the solder to fix it. Total cost of parts, $0. Personal satisfaction and bragging rights, priceless!
It would fail about every 6 months..then I decided to keep it unplugged when it was not in use..It's never failed since, going on 2.5 years now.

I was eating lunch one day and the A/C quit cooling. The compressor wouldn't engage. Went outside, popped the lid off, saw a bulging capacitor.
Went out to my storage shed and grabbed a used cap I had laying around which I had scavenged months earlier, plugged it in, the compressor engaged, put the lid back on and went back to my lunch which was still warm.
Total cost of parts, $0. Personal satisfaction and bragging rights, priceless!

corntrollio says

These guys aren't even real repairmen anymore. They are basically parts-change monkeys. Rather than analyze the problem, they just keep changing parts until something works and charge you ridiculous prices.

I've noticed the same thing at dealership service departments. If you get some of the master technicians, those guys know what they are doing, but there's no guarantee that you will get one of those people.

I've worked in dealerships as a mechanic (oops, technician) for mercedes and nissan. My opinion, they are all hacks...glorified parts changers..the pressure to repair a car in a set amount of time doesn't allow them to be anything else. Much faster to throw parts at it. Next time you get a bill to replace an electronic part for $1000 or more, just wonder if it couldn't have been fixed with a drop of solder.

conrtollio said: That's why I recommend going to independent shops (in addition to paying cheaper rates -- but really it's about the expertise).
Speaking of the booming Bay Area economy, my independent auto shop (who I use for "specialty repairs") announced they were raising rates from $125/hour to $140/hour. Yikes.

EBGuy says

Speaking of the booming Bay Area economy, my independent auto shop (who I use for "specialty repairs") announced they were raising rates from $125/hour to $140/hour. Yikes.

That's high, but it's still lower than a lot of area dealerships. Depends on what kind of car, but I wasn't sure what you mean by "specialty repairs."

The other thing that dealers do is bill by the book -- i.e. the book says this job takes 2 hours. If the mechanic does it in 1 hour, then he can work on another car for the next hour, but you still pay for 2 and they still get paid for 2. This encourages mechanics to cut corners.

If you find someone who bills on actual time, rather than book time, you will save a lot of money 99% of the time.

I don't begrudge the honest independent shops. There is a shitload of overhead in having your own shop, so the net profit to them isn't nearly that much.