patrick.net

"Senators want to end its dragnet collection of data on Americans"

Since when, did senators find out they were being eavesdropped on??

tvgnus says

NSA monitors virtually all communications in U.S.

If they had done this before 911, 911 would never have happened. The Boston Bombings still happened, which tells me some government official was sleeping on the job.
We have got to realize the world is not what it was in the past, that we face a serious threat from extremists, and we have no choice, but to give up some of our freedoms in exchange for safety. Americans put their safety, and the safety of their children above all else. This will never change.

Strategist says

tvgnus says

NSA monitors virtually all communications in U.S.

If they had done this before 911, 911 would never have happened. The Boston Bombings still happened, which tells me some government official was sleeping on the job.

Or maybe, just maybe they record but don't actively monitor all communications.

All communications in the U.S. That's a HELL of a lot of data to listen in on.

New Renter says

Strategist says

tvgnus says

NSA monitors virtually all communications in U.S.

If they had done this before 911, 911 would never have happened. The Boston Bombings still happened, which tells me some government official was sleeping on the job.

Or maybe, just maybe they record but don't actively monitor all communications.

All communications in the U.S. That's a HELL of a lot of data to listen in on.

You would need 900 million people to monitor 300 million with 8 hour round the clock shifts. The NSA monitoring all our communications is just a myth taken out of context, promoted by the media to rile up the left.
In reality they just listen in and carefully watch high risk individuals and organizations.

Thought they used some Echelon server for this ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echelon_%28signals_intelligence%29

Strategist says

You would need 900 million people to monitor 300 million with 8 hour round the clock shifts. The NSA monitoring all our communications is just a myth taken out of context, promoted by the media to rile up the left.

In reality they just listen in and carefully watch high risk individuals and organizations.

There's a new invention out there that can do this kind of work. It's called computers. Check it out some time.

bob2356 says

There's a new invention out there that can do this kind of work. It's called computers. Check it out some time.

You beat me to it. Strategist says some ridiculous things.

Never underestimate how sophisticated and powerful software can be when you throw unlimited resources at it.

We DO have a choice. The three branches of government are designed to monitor one another with no one of them being capable of authoritative abuse.

What rights DO I have at the moment based on the threat of terrorism? Private conversations in my own home with my family in the living room? Why isn't that public. You can SPRAY nearly invisible audio monitoring onto glass and other surfaces and even let it be transferred by contact. If they CAN listen in to my conversations about the government in my own home, why isn't that "public"?

It CAN be done and so it IS done. The same can be said of ANY abuse of power. The watchers must be watched. They are most definitely NOT being. Someone listening in to my conversations this morning in my Chicago hotel could make quite a bit of money on the markets tomorrow. Are you willing to say we just PUT UP with that kind of thing because the ubiquitous "they" need to hear all things in order to protect us? BS.

deepcgi says

We DO have a choice. The three branches of government are designed to monitor one another with no one of them being capable of authoritative abuse.

The founding fathers made many stupid mistakes. One of the more important ones is that they made no prohibition from a person holding a position in more than one branch of government over the course of his or her lifetime.

If senators could not run for president, then senators would be far more likely to argue against executive power since they could never wield that power.

Furthermore, if anti-nepotism laws prevented multiple people in the same family from holding office or government appointments, such conflicts of interest would be further reduced.

Dan8267 says

Furthermore, if anti-nepotism laws prevented multiple people in the same family from holding office or government appointments, such conflicts of interest would be further reduced.

Isn't that sort of being blamed for something you have no control over?

If my retarded half-brother wins the gubernatorial race, why should that prevent me from running?

Dan8267 says

bob2356 says

There's a new invention out there that can do this kind of work. It's called computers. Check it out some time.

You beat me to it. Strategist says some ridiculous things.

Never underestimate how sophisticated and powerful software can be when you throw unlimited resources at it.

If all our communications is on some giant hard drive that no one cares for, why kick up a fuss? I don't think that hard drive giggles when it sees you naked.

Rin says

If my retarded half-brother wins the gubernatorial race, why should that prevent me from running?

Conflict of interest. Becoming a powerful politician is not a right. The right of the people to be free from aristocratic rule is far more important than any person's political ambitions.

Dan8267 says

Rin says

If my retarded half-brother wins the gubernatorial race, why should that prevent me from running?

Conflict of interest. Becoming a powerful politician is not a right. The right of the people to be free from aristocratic rule is far more important than any person's political ambitions.

You're asking me to put out a contract on my half-brother? That's not right; I want to be a crooked politician on my own terms :-)

Strategist says

If all our communications is on some giant hard drive that no one cares for, why kick up a fuss? I don't think that hard drive giggles when it sees you naked.

1. People can at their leisure read your most personal messages including those nude pictures your daughter sent via Snapchat to her boyfriend.

2. Got a great idea? Now some NSA footsoldier also has that idea and beats you to market. He can even have your code.

3. Most importantly, the information can and will be used for blackmail and selective prosecution.

The government criminalizes things that should not be criminalized and then selectively prosecutes. The average American unwittingly commits three felonies a day. Yes, that includes you.

One of the few smart things Ayn Rand said was
"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime
that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."

So, all some government agent has to do to get your ass thrown in prison for decades is fish through that mass of recorded conversations and get the prosecutor to press charges against you for something that should not be illegal and that hundreds of other Americans do without being prosecuted.

And that is why you should not tolerate the NSA domestic spying.

Dan8267 says

And that is why you should not tolerate the NSA domestic spying.

How do you expect the government to keep you safe if you keep preventing them from keeping you safe?
Most Americans are willing to give up some privacy in exchange for safety. Why not you? What are you hiding in your closet?

Strategist says

How do you expect the government to keep you safe if you keep preventing them from keeping you safe?

If the people in government today can't keep us safe without being a bigger threat themselves, then fire all their asses. There are plenty of people in this country, myself include, who could keep us safe without turning us into slaves.

The real question is who keeps us safe from the government.

Strategist says

Most Americans are willing to give up some privacy in exchange for safety.

So did most Germans in the 1930s. Look how that turned out.

Strategist says

Why not you? What are you hiding in your closet?

Spoken just like those Germans from the 1930s.

Strategist says

If they had done this before 911, 911 would never have happened.

That's BS. They had all the information they needed. They just didn't put it together.

Strategist says

How do you expect the government to keep you safe if you keep preventing them from keeping you safe?

This doesn't "keep us safe".
It's the information equivalent of nuking a city to kill a terrorist. Meaning this is so over the board that it doesn't even relate to the original intent.

Most likely it will be used in the future against citizens when the regime becomes a tyranny.

"Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-Ben Franklin

The most ridiculous is this:
http://news.yahoo.com/yahoo-join-google-create-spy-free-email-systems-012458302--finance.html

Snowden told us that:
- in some cases they deliberately collaborated with the gov
- in some cases they were forced to.
- in some cases they were broken into by the gov.

Now they want us to believe that companies that make their money by spying on people are "spy free"!

Yeah.... "here's my data. You're not going to spy, right?"

What credibility do they think they have?

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

And that is why you should not tolerate the NSA domestic spying.

How do you expect the government to keep you safe if you keep preventing them from keeping you safe?

Most Americans are willing to give up some privacy in exchange for safety. Why not you? What are you hiding in your closet?

Old Ben Franklin said it best:
"Any people who would give up their liberty to obtain a measure of temporary security will deserve neither and lose both."

Cowboy up.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

How do you expect the government to keep you safe if you keep preventing them from keeping you safe?

If the people in government today can't keep us safe without being a bigger threat themselves, then fire all their asses. There are plenty of people in this country, myself include, who could keep us safe without turning us into slaves.

The real question is who keeps us safe from the government.

The government is not our enemy. It is OUR government. We elected it.
If you don't like the government vote for another one.

turtledove says

"Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-Ben Franklin

Quigley says

Old Ben Franklin said it best:

"Any people who would give up their liberty to obtain a measure of temporary security will deserve neither and lose both."

Cowboy up.

Look...we are all parents. When our children are away do we worry about their liberties and rights, or do we worry about their safety?
You can say anything you want, but when the time comes all we care about is the safety of our children. Even animals are no different. Try approaching baby cubs and watch how the mother bear reacts. Our natural instinct is to survive and ensure the survival of our offspring. In other words....its all about safety.

Strategist says

The government is not our enemy. It is OUR government.

We are not the enemy either.
Someone is being forceful, invasive, indelicate, and that's not us.

Strategist says

We elected it.

Considering both parties would treat you the same. You don't really have a choice, do you?
"We elected it" doesn't really cut it.

Heraclitusstudent says

Snowden told us that:

- in some cases they deliberately collaborated with the gov

- in some cases they were forced to.

- in some cases they were broken into by the gov.

Snowden accuses us of spying and then takes refuge in a country that does the same. What a hypocritical asshole he is.

Strategist says

When our children are away do we worry about their liberties and rights, or do we worry about their safety?

You have to use reason to assess a threat, and act proportionally.

Suppose I say "there is a snake on this mountain, therefore let me torch it to kill the snake". While there is a appearance of logic, the reaction is totally disproportionate to the threat.

Your children are far more likely to die in a car accident than in a terrorist attack. But you don't expect the government to track their cars, right? Or check if they have drunk before they are able to even climb in the car?

Why are you so scared of terrorism considering it's such an incredibly unlikely thing?

Strategist says

Snowden accuses us of spying and then takes refuge in a country that does the same. What a hypocritical asshole he is.

So we are the same as Russia? East Germany?
Is that what it came down to?

Heraclitusstudent says

Or check if they have drunk before they are able to even climb in the car?

Hey that's a great idea.

Heraclitusstudent says

Why are you so scared of terrorism considering it's such an incredibly unlikely thing?

Because they have the power to derail our prosperity. They also commit incredible human rights abuse, which I am not willing to simply watch and claim it's none of our business. All human rights abuse and genocide is our business because we are all humans.
Look what's happening in Iraq with 50,000 on the verge of perishing because of those wackos, ISIS. If we just sit by and watch them perish when we can save them, we will be the murderers of the 50,000 innocent people.

Quigley says

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

And that is why you should not tolerate the NSA domestic spying.

How do you expect the government to keep you safe if you keep preventing them from keeping you safe?

Most Americans are willing to give up some privacy in exchange for safety. Why not you? What are you hiding in your closet?

Old Ben Franklin said it best:

"Any people who would give up their liberty to obtain a measure of temporary security will deserve neither and lose both."

Cowboy up.

Actually, Hermann Göring said it even better. Göring was Hitler's right hand man.

Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

Strategist says

The government is not our enemy. It is OUR government. We elected it.

If you don't like the government vote for another one.

Not even you could possibly be that stupid.

1. The government isn't a real thing. It's a collection of persons, each of whom can be corrupt and evil.
2. The single most important lesson in history is Power Corrupts. Even the most noble of men will become the most vile of criminals if given unchecked power, secrecy, and freedom from accountability.
3. The vast majority of the people who work in elected office don't care about your life at all. They care about their careers, power, and money. They will gladly extinguish your life and the lives of your children to further any of those three priorities.
4. Almost 100% of the people working in government ARE NOT elected officials. They are not answerable to the people or to elections. These non-elected agents can yield far more power over your life and the lives of you family than even the president can.
5. Elections, particularly federal ones, are essentially rigged. At best, the people can vote for one of two candidates, each from one of the two controlling parties. There is essentially no option for significant change in federal elections. The public cannot
- elect a third party candidate due to Wolf's Dilemma and the way our elections are ran
- prevent anyone from wining an election by voting no confidence
- choose who the primary candidates are

As a result, the public is forced to choose among 6 to 10 shitty options in primaries, and two shitty options in the general election.

6. Republics can and have deteriorated into despotism.
7. Republics can and do commit atrocities. The Soviet Union was a republic. China is a republic.
8. America has committed dozens of genocides and torture.
9. Our government has performed illegal medical experiments on its own citizens against their will. Many of these victims died as a result.
10. Our government has illegally sterilized its own citizens against their will.
11. Our government has illegally murdered its own citizens without trial or even charges including minors.

And you say we should have blind trust in our government.

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.

Heraclitusstudent says

Strategist says

Snowden accuses us of spying and then takes refuge in a country that does the same. What a hypocritical asshole he is.

So we are the same as Russia? East Germany?

Is that what it came down to?

From the spying point of view, yes. We are just like them and every other country.

Strategist says

Snowden accuses us of spying and then takes refuge in a country that does the same. What a hypocritical asshole he is.

That's not hypocrisy. That's necessity.

The hypocrisy is that Americans claim that their country is the land of the free and the home of the brave while allowing our corrupt government to imprison and kill whistle-blowers because most Americans are such cowards they won't follow due process in trying alleged terrorists.

As Americans we should be ashamed that Snowden had to seek political asylum from the United States. No one should EVER have to seek political asylum from our country. If they do, we have failed.

Strategist says

From the spying point of view, yes. We are just like them and every other country.

Throughout history, most countries did not spy on their own citizens. The ones that did were tyrannical shitholes in which you would not want to live.

The phenomenon of countries spying on their own citizens is new. It is the result of technological advances and the interconnectedness created by the Internet that has given governments the ability to spy on private citizens cheaply and on a massive scale. Make no mistake, this is a new phenomenon and it does threaten to destroy liberty and the ability of the citizens to improve government, laws, and policies. It makes government less accountable to the people and people less likely to speak out against crimes committed by government agents.

Dan8267 says

1. The government isn't a real thing. It's a collection of persons, each of whom can be corrupt and evil.

2. The single most important lesson in history is Power Corrupts. Even the most noble of men will become the most vile of criminals if given unchecked power, secrecy, and freedom from accountability.

That's why dictators, kings and popes make bad and corrupt leaders. Our system is much more superior. If you have a better system lets hear it.

Dan8267 says

4. Almost 100% of the people working in government ARE NOT elected officials.

They're not all supposed to be elected. You want elect the clerks and janitors?

Dan8267 says

- elect a third party candidate due to Wolf's Dilemma and the way our elections are ran

- prevent anyone from wining an election by voting no confidence

- choose who the primary candidates are

As a result, the public is forced to choose among 6 to 10 shitty options in primaries, and two shitty options in the general election.

Show me a better way. We are Americans. We are always looking for something better.

Dan8267 says

8. America has committed dozens of genocides and torture.

So has every other country, people and race on the planet at some point in their history. Stop complaining.
9, 10, 11 seem silly to me.

Dan8267 says

And you say we should have blind trust in our government.

Who said anything about blind trust? We have checks and balances in our system.

Strategist says

Because they have the power to derail our prosperity. They also commit incredible human rights abuse, which I am not willing to simply watch and claim it's none of our business. All human rights abuse and genocide is our business because we are all humans.

Look what's happening in Iraq with 50,000 on the verge of perishing because of those wackos, ISIS. If we just sit by and watch them perish when we can save them, we will be the murderers of the 50,000 innocent people.

1) No terrorism has ever derailed the prosperity of any country. That's non-sense.
If you ignore the trauma - which is the only thing terrorists are going for - even 911 was like an irrelevant mosquito bite at the US level. You're like the elephant scared by the ant.

2) What you see with ISIS is a standing army not terrorism. ISIS is irrelevant as a risk to the US because they are no match for the US army.

3) if you want to save people worldwide, let me remind you that simple starvation or curable diseases are killing far more people than "terrorists".
OF COURSE YOU SIT BY AND WATCH THEM DIE! We all do.

For what the NSA spends, you could probably save a few millions children.
That instead instead of the sick obsession with trying to watch everything, know everything, and being scared of every shadow.

Dan8267 says

As Americans we should be ashamed that Snowden had to seek political asylum from the United States. No one should EVER have to seek political asylum from our country. If they do, we have failed.

LOL. They are traitors who harm their own country. They are the ones who have failed.

Heraclitusstudent says

1) No terrorism has ever derailed the prosperity of any country. That's non-sense.

If you ignore the trauma - which is the only thing terrorists are going for - even 911 was like an irrelevant mosquito bite at the US level. You're like the elephant scared by the ant.

911 cost us a hell of a lot. Rebuilding the site is just a drop in the bucket. It led to wars that cost us trillions, we have lost trillions in lost production and diverting our resources to security. Other countries also pay a steep price.

Heraclitusstudent says

2) What you see with ISIS is a standing army not terrorism. ISIS is irrelevant as a risk to the US because they are no match for the US army.

No they are terrorists, religious radical terrorists who slaughter women and children. They have captured hundreds of young women, putting them in school buildings and offering them for sale because their Holy book says that is how to treat infidel women. They must be destroyed.

Strategist says

911 cost us a hell of a lot. Rebuilding the site is just a drop in the bucket. It led to wars that cost us trillions

That's was not a direct consequence of 911. It was our choice.
We could have said "Ok 3000 people died, we are going to save 30,000 starving children." That's not what we decided to do.

Strategist says

No they are terrorists, religious radical terrorists who slaughter women and children.

Acting like barbarians is not the definition of terrorism. Many other armies did the same before. Would you call Genghis Khan a terrorist? Nope. Terrorists are isolated people, hiding and trying to strike innocent people trying to cause chaos.

Heraclitusstudent says

Strategist says

911 cost us a hell of a lot. Rebuilding the site is just a drop in the bucket. It led to wars that cost us trillions

That's was not a direct consequence of 911. It was our choice.

We could have said "Ok 3000 people died, we are going to save 30,000 starving children." That's not what we decided to do.

Why don't we save the 30,000 starving children and go after the terrorists? If we do nothing about 911 we will end up with a 911 ever month.

Heraclitusstudent says

Strategist says

No they are terrorists, religious radical terrorists who slaughter women and children.

Acting like barbarians is not the definition of terrorism. Many other armies did the same before. Would you call Genghis Khan a terrorist? Nope. Terrorists are isolated people, hiding and trying to strike innocent people trying to cause chaos.

I agree with you. But in today's world we are just not gonna accept it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/08/yazidi-women-captive_n_5662805.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl6%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D513107

BAGHDAD (AP) — Hundreds of women from the Yazidi religious minority have been taken captive by Sunni militants with "vicious plans," an Iraqi official said Friday, further underscoring the dire plight of Iraq's minorities at the hands of the Islamic State group.

Kamil Amin, the spokesman for Iraq's Human Rights Ministry, said hundreds of Yazidi women below the age of 35 are being held in schools in Iraq's second largest city, Mosul. He said the ministry learned of the captives from their families.

"We think that the terrorists by now consider them slaves and they have vicious plans for them," Amin told The Associated Press. "We think that these women are going to be used in demeaning ways by those terrorists to satisfy their animalistic urges in a way that contradicts all the human and Islamic values.

Strategist says

That's why dictators, kings and popes make bad and corrupt leaders. Our system is much more superior. If you have a better system lets hear it.

Read me previous posts and threads. I've stated a multitudes of ways of improving our system without having to destroy it first.

Strategist says

They're not all supposed to be elected. You want elect the clerks and janitors?

Janitors do not decide whether or not you live or die. An NSA worker can flag you as a terrorist and your whole family could be hauled off to Gitmo never to be seen again. A clerk making a data entry error or deliberately fucking with you can do the same. How many no-knock raids went to the wrong home because of "error"? Many of them resulted in the deaths of innocents.

You stated that we have nothing to fear from our government because we elect our officials. I have demonstrated that your statement is false for many reasons including that the vast majority of those wielding power have not been elected.

Strategist says

Show me a better way. We are Americans. We are always looking for something better.

Again read my previous posts and threads. I have gone into great detail on this subject matter.

Furthermore, domestic spying is exactly what prevents Americans from improving the system. People who are in power do not want change and will gladly use selective enforcement and over-criminalization to eliminate anyone who might be successful at improving, and thus changing, the system.

And anyone who is so cowardly as to sacrifice due process, civil rights, and transparency in government for security theater, does not deserve to call himself an American. Real Americans try terrorists. We don't shit our pants in fear at the thought of bringing terrorists into our courtrooms.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

8. America has committed dozens of genocides and torture.

So has every other country, people and race on the planet at some point in their history. Stop complaining.

Your statement is not true, and even if it were, that would be no excuse for the atrocities and no reason not to punish the guilty. Would you free a murderer on the basis that there have been multitudes of murderers before him? I suspect you will not be as pleased with the machine when it is turned on you or someone you care about.

And what you childishly refer to as complaining, we sane people call the first step in improving our government. The first step to solving a problem, is acknowledging its existence.

Dan8267 says

9. Our government has performed illegal medical experiments on its own citizens against their will. Many of these victims died as a result.

10. Our government has illegally sterilized its own citizens against their will.

11. Our government has illegally murdered its own citizens without trial or even charges including minors.

Strategist says

9, 10, 11 seem silly to me.

Silly? How fucking evil do you have to be to consider fatal human medical experimentation, forced sterilization, and outright murder to be "silly"? Christ, man. These are Holocaust crimes. Did you think the Holocaust was silly, too?

Strategist says

LOL. They are traitors who harm their own country. They are the ones who have failed.

You speak like Lennon, Stalin, Hitler, and all other despots. Your statement is as Unamerican as one can get.

Strategist says

Why don't we save the 30,000 starving children and go after the terrorists? If we do nothing about 911 we will end up with a 911 ever month.

Sorry what did attacking Iraq do to prevent the next 911 ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

What did something was airline security, special operations against cells worlwide, collaboration with other governments, etc, etc,... Mostly police.

There are hundreds of countries, many of which have terrorist cells. Again attacking one did nothing. It was disastrous from a political perspective.
(and just about any perspective in fact)

In fact ISIS wouldn't even be there today, if GW Bush didn't have the bright idea to remove a secular dictator that was keeping things in place, at the cost of $trillions and many broken lives. Nice results indeed!