patrick.net

It's all Obama's fault!!!

When I read this stuff, I don't know what to say.

I'd studied Applied Chemistry/Chemical Engineering. For the most part, few entry level jobs actually required much of that knowledge base.

I think the problem here is that this guy was stuck on a campus in the middle of Pennsylvania and didn't actually do a CO-OP/internship with a real company.

The fact that he doesn't know about real world applications tells me that.

Yep.

This further proves the STEM shortage is 100% bullshit. Were there a talent shortage anywhere near as dire as the talking heads claim there would be intense bidding wars for even the most mediocre of graduates. Companies would be willing to recruit people with no skills off the street and provide on the job training; however as we know that's not at all what's actually happening.

The best way to land a job in engineering is to talk about real world problems you've solved, not about the A's you earned in your Cobol or Basic programming classes. Corporate internships used to be a nice thing on a resume, now they are more important than the degree itself. This is indicative of the lack of respect for academic work and of the lack of a shortage of talent. A shortage reduces the entry barrier, a surplus raises it.

In my experience most employers have raging hard-ons for Six Sigma certifications. I'd recommend getting one of those.

Another skill - fancy Solidworks drawings. From what I've seen Solidworks is to engineering as Powerpoint is to business. Both make very pretty pictures that tend not to mean anything but are great for impressing the masses.

If I had to do it all over again, I'd major in English or a foreign language and stay the frick away from graduate school.

My writing skills are 80% of my value to the economy. I love elliptic curves and algebraic number theory, and I have no regrets as to learning that stuff, but the humanities are important in all sorts of subtle ways.

One thing which sticks out, the older I get: the professoriate is really out of touch about what goes on in the outside world. Maybe they should be that way, but students should be aware of that: too many starry-eyed undergrads are identifying with the only professionals they are exposed to between 18 and 22, and this influence needs to be diluted.

HydroCabron says

the professoriate is really out of touch about what goes on in the outside world. Maybe they should be that way, but students should be aware of that

I believe that many in the work world, already know this, so perhaps, this *out in the open secret* is kept around, so that ppl can feel confident in self-promotion via the bachelors or masters program.

HydroCabron says

I'd major in English or a foreign language and stay the frick away from graduate school.

Really, any BA degree will suffice, for the sake of HR appearances. It's better for a person to learn a trade, work that trade while getting the BA part-time and online, at a Univ of Maryland or Penn State.

That degree then, is a bridge which allows the person to slide out of being 'blue collar' and more 'white collar', later on down the road.

Rin says

At least 90 percent of my college education (and that of so many others) boiled down to pure terminology, or analysis of terminology. My success in any given class was almost wholly based on how well I could remember the definitions of countless terms – like the precise meaning of “computer science” or how to explain “project management” in paragraph form, or the all-too-subtle differences between marketing and advertising

There's the problem. Good computer science schools require lots of hands-on projects. In my Data Structures class students implemented data structures and were graded based on how well they worked in the teaching assistants' automated test suites. In upper division courses like Compiler Construction we built more significant projects, like a compiler for most of 'C'.

Unfortunately not everyone has the aptitude to succeed in such environments - supposedly 1/3 of our data structures class failed which would imply finding another major. Joel Spolsky observed a 40-70% washout rate in another appropriately rigorous program. That's very bad for department revenue.

My school addressed that problem by replacing the professor with a more lenient one, and our interview reject rate of graduates at a local company went from negligible to around 50%.

Based on the Muppets I've interviewed from elsewhere (who were like English majors who couldn't write a coherent paragraph) that seems to be the common approach to maximizing department tuition revenues.

New Renter says

This further proves the STEM shortage is 100% bullshit.

Hardly. There is absolutely a shortage of competent software engineers.

Were there a talent shortage anywhere near as dire as the talking heads claim there would be intense bidding wars for even the most mediocre of graduates.

Starting compensation packages for fresh graduates who can pass a minimal competence exam at big companies are now in the $170-$200K/year range. While seven figures are generally out of the question (Microsoft Distinguished Engineer is a level 70 position with annual compensation around $1M) good experienced software engineers can break into the 1% without a working spouse if they're willing to whore themselves out to big tech companies.

Companies would be willing to recruit people with no skills off the street and provide on the job training; however as we know that's not at all what's actually happening.

Zero isn't viable when you need to put product in front of customers this quarter or even next year. The classes needed to be really useful from a computer science program add up to about two years at 40+ hours a week, and at least 1/3 of high school graduates with the background to get into the schools teaching that don't cut the mustard.

Starting from a reasonable foundation companies do offer a lot of latitude. Microsoft hired me to write C# although I'd never seen the language before. Amazon hired me to do Java although I'd done that just once and didn't admit to it in my resume or job interview.

Knowing Turquoise on Tracks or tomorrow's other hot new technology isn't the problem - competent people quickly pick that up.

I don't know. Programmers are still in huge demand in the Bay Area.

Computer Science stills are NEVER obsolete. In fact, software still lags hardware greatly. Besides, once you understands the essence of the craft it takes no time to learn a new language.

Years ago, I got an offer to program in Python even though I had never written a single line of Python.

Software is as acquirable a skill as painting. 99% of all programmers are wannabes with no talents. No sympathies from me.

Perhaps they should have gotten a degree in Women Studies. At least they would have more realistic imaginary girlfriends in their minds.

drew_eckhardt says

Hardly. There is absolutely a shortage of competent software engineers.

Agreed.

drew_eckhardt says

Starting compensation packages for fresh graduates who can pass a minimal competence exam at big companies are now in the $170-$200K/year range.

This number seems inflated. I'd say 120K, and 170K-200K for senior. Of course there are exceptions and companies which have seen crazy appreciation in their stock which can bring the total compensation much higher. As a base that number is far too high though.

drew_eckhardt says

Knowing Turquoise on Tracks or tomorrow's other hot new technology isn't the problem - competent people quickly pick that up.

Agreed. Although it pains me a bit to write Javascript jon the back-end just because node.js (no doubt a good framework for smaller projects) has become hotter than J-LO ;)

drew_eckhardt says

Unfortunately not everyone has the aptitude to succeed in such environments - supposedly 1/3 of our data structures class failed which would imply finding another major and a drop in department revenues. Joel Spolsky observed a 40-70% washout rate in another appropriately rigorous program.

In our compiler class, only one person finished the project.

1/3 failed data structures? What's the matter with them? Many students had issues with classes like formal methods and computational theories. Those are excellent mind exercises IMO.

mell says

Agreed. Although it pains me a bit to write Javascript jon the back-end just because node.js (no doubt a good framework for smaller projects) has become hotter than J-LO ;)

To me, any large-scale project that uses a non-typed language or tool is suspicious.

People have forgotten how much a well-designed type system can help with code quality and maintainability.

mell says

Starting compensation packages for fresh graduates who can pass a minimal competence exam at big companies are now in the $170-$200K/year range.

This number seems inflated. I'd say 120K, and 170K-200K for senior. Of course there are exceptions and companies which have seen crazy appreciation in their stock which can bring the total compensation much higher. As a base that number is far too high too.

The number includes signing bonus and equity which are often omitted from salary surveys.

$120K salary, $50-$100K cash signing bonus vesting over 1-2 years, and $150-$200K in restricted stock units vesting over 4 years is $170-$195K annually for the 4-year package disregarding stock appreciation (or market crashes, it could theoretically go down), refresh grants, and raises.

$200K cash for sufficient experience hasn't been out of the question for quite a while - I turned down one startup for that in 2011. The real money is in equity - that's where the 1% annual increase in shares goes at big companies, and what made Eric Schmidt worth $8B in spite of a puny $250K salary.

Peter P says

1/3 failed data structures? What's the matter with them? Many students had issues with classes like formal methods and computational theories. Those are excellent mind exercises IMO.

They were required to actually implement data structures in code which passed automated regression tests that weren't graded on a curve (much like in industry, where QA bounces back release candidates that don't work and customers return product). In a world where graduates can't write one 15 line function which handles corner cases B+ trees are completely out of the question.

I still fondly remember the B+ tree assignment. I got 101% due to the extra point from writing a man page and used it a decade later in a commercial product because it was easier to make that persistent with reallocate on write into log structured storage than modifying BDB to do the same.

drew_eckhardt says

In a world where graduates can't write one 15 line function which handles corner cases B+ trees are completely out of the question.

Then I guess they also can't write a one-line C function to compare strings.

HydroCabron says

I love elliptic curves and algebraic number theory, and I have no regrets as to learning that stuff,

+1 for that one.

Training in abstract mathematics is the most underrated thing in computer science.

Casey Ark, the author of the WaPo ariticle, should be much more specific about what skills he learned, or did not learn, at Penn State.

For example, what programming languages he learned that were outdated by the time he finished his degree. Or just show the list of courses he took.

The whole story sounds fishy. At most good universities, the CS professors have a pretty good idea of what real-life programming is like. In fact, their graduate students keep them sharp because they do big software projects under their supervision.

Peter P says

they should have gotten a degree in Women Studies. At least they would have more realistic imaginary girlfriends in their minds.

Women studies is the den for Femi-Nazis. Even if they're attractive, you never know when they'll bite.

What you're talking about is English Lit. Now there ... you get some cuties with fashionable outfits, kinda like the Bronte sisters.

Rin says

Peter P says

they should have gotten a degree in Women Studies. At least they would have more realistic imaginary girlfriends in their minds.

Women studies is the den for Femi-Nazis. Even if they're attractive, you never know when they'll bite.

What you're talking about is English Lit. Now there ... you get some cuties with fashionable outfits, kinda like the Bronte sisters.

You are right! Creative writing is a much better bet.

Peter P says

mell says

Agreed. Although it pains me a bit to write Javascript jon the back-end just because node.js (no doubt a good framework for smaller projects) has become hotter than J-LO ;)

To me, any large-scale project that uses a non-typed language or tool is suspicious.

People have forgotten how much a well-designed type system can help with code quality and maintainability.

Agreed. My favorites are currently Scala (though Java 8 looks pretty pretty good) and Groovy. Groovy is prob. one of the most concise languages that allows duck typing as well as strict type checking where necessary, and it has a lot of functional plus all the OO goodness.

mell says

Peter P says

mell says

Agreed. Although it pains me a bit to write Javascript jon the back-end just because node.js (no doubt a good framework for smaller projects) has become hotter than J-LO ;)

To me, any large-scale project that uses a non-typed language or tool is suspicious.

People have forgotten how much a well-designed type system can help with code quality and maintainability.

Agreed. My favorites are currently Scala (though Java 8 looks pretty pretty good) and Groovy. Groovy is prob. one of the most concise languages that allows duck typing as well as strict type checking where necessary, and it has a lot of functional plus all the OO goodness.

I have done Groovy/Grails quite a bit back in 2008. I liked it better than Ruby/Rails.

What is great about Scala is strict-typing as well as type inference. The code can be concise and precise. It is the ULTIMATE OO language, yet with the expressiveness of a functional language.

Three gripes: lack of TCO, calls are not curried by default, nulls are still prevalent

As far as the language is concerned, I think F# is superior. However, I do prefer JVM over .NET.

F# is an amazing language. I wrote a Self-Organizing Map with graphics in 40 lines of code.

Better yet, the "pipe" operator eliminates the need for having many temp variables. Nulls are further discouraged, though still available for legacy/compatibility with .NET. Real tail-call optimizations. Very similar syntax/concept to ML/OCaml.

I think concurrency is handled better in Scala though.

I hate duck-typing of any shape or form. And I am saying this as a postmodernist.

STEM folk can't find jobs because Bill Gates and other billionaires are lobbying to import hundreds of thousands of H1Bs.

Portal says

STEM folk can't find jobs because Bill Gates and other billionaires are lobbying to import hundreds of thousands of H1Bs.

That is a myth. Good programmers are as rare as unicorns in the Bay Area. To protect the future of the software industry, it is foolish to further reduce the pool of candidates.

If talents cannot be sourced locally, companies will have no choice but to move overseas. The Bay Area will turn into another Rust Belt.

Rin said, "Really, any BA degree will suffice, for the sake of HR appearances. It's better for a person to learn a trade, work that trade while getting the BA part-time and online, at a Univ of Maryland or Penn State.
That degree then, is a bridge which allows the person to slide out of being 'blue collar' and more 'white collar', later on down the road."

Precisely, mate. This is the path to constant employment in this economy. The trades are where jobs are stacked in abundance, and a bright lad could go far by becoming expert in one and then consulting or going into management. I've been considering a move to management, myself. I've been blue collar for fifteen years, but I've still got that Bachelors in Chemistry, a prerequisite for such a move in many companies. I'd actually take a pay cut going this route, but I'd get my weekends back, which would be worth it.

Ok, aside from the premed, prelaw/patent agent, and finance destination careers for STEM folks ... what makes a programmer so remarkably different from let's say a person trained in applied math, chemical engineering, electronics engineering, nuclear physics, biomedical engineering, industrial engineering, and a host of other technical disciplines?

I'm a bit perplex as to the unicorn story for programmers, as the navy nuclear program takes students from the aforementioned list of programs (with high quantitative scores on some entrance exam) and whips 'em into shape in Power school down in South Carolina and those who make the cut (both in terms of endurance & mental clarity under pressure), end up on a vessel, running the nuclear stations.

Isn't becoming a "great" programmer, similar to what's described above, a person with a technical background, who's willing to hone his concentration into a single point of focus for lengthy periods of time?

Quigley says

I've been considering a move to management, myself... I'd actually take a pay cut going this route, but I'd get my weekends back, which would be worth it.

A friend did precisely that, then went back. He had a BS degree (the science kind), but found that did not align with the office BS requirement. Having worked for years in an environment where results are plainly visible, he hadn't developed the mission critical arts of eliding unintended consequences and redirecting blame.

Peter P says

That is a myth. Good programmers are as rare as unicorns in the Bay Area. To protect the future of the software industry, it is foolish to further reduce the pool of candidates.

Why are they using H1B's to replace even the mediocre programmers, then? I don't get it.

Why not just screen for the unicorns, and ship them over?

I'll show up to meet them at the airport, with party streamers and a kazoo, seeing as there are so few of them.

Rin says

Isn't becoming a "great" programmer, similar to what's described above, a person with a technical background, who's willing to hone his concentration into a single point of focus for lengthy periods of time?

Except that software is a left AND right brain exercise. It is just as qualitative as it is quantitative.

A Computer Science degree is not even required. A Math (pure or applied) degree works just fine. No matter how they try to spin it, but software is NOT engineering.

HydroCabron says

Peter P says

That is a myth. Good programmers are as rare as unicorns in the Bay Area. To protect the future of the software industry, it is foolish to further reduce the pool of candidates.

Why are they using H1B's to replace even the mediocre programmers, then? I don't get it.

As a junior executive, here's my personal viewpoint ... companies have these regard-itus ideas like "I want a championship team, not a team full of champions"

What that means is that they like this idea of having a few ... let's call 'em alpha worker types around ... but the rest of the work, should be done as cheaply a/o outsourced if possible. So a program director/architect has tremendous power and influence, however, those who report to him should be utterly powerless but work effectively under his dominion. A way to do this, w/o mass defection/turnover, is to hire H1-Bs who'll do as they're told.

HydroCabron says

Why are they using H1B's to replace even the mediocre programmers, then? I don't get it.

Why not just screen for the unicorns, and ship them over?

It is easier to find unicorns if you look at more horses. Many horses will never become unicorns no matter how you raise them.

Sometimes it is just hard to screen candidates before they are hired.

Besides, why should the government interfere in the hiring process?

Peter P says

Except that software is a left AND right brain exercise. It is just as qualitative as it is quantitative.

Sure, but why couldn't a so-called all purpose Navy Nuke, not be able to harness his mind to solve these programs?

If you know about systems engineering, we did some back in ChemE, the use and development of heuristics was a big way of getting things done w/o always going back to heavily weighted mathematical rigorous design & analysis. The idea is that one is trained to think in terms of being open minded, while technical, in solving problems.

Sure, today, lazy ones fall back to some MathLab automated solution but in terms of how things were taught originally, when non-linearity arose, the use of heuristics, in place of rigorous mathematics, was always under consideration.

Rin says

A way to do this, w/o mass defection/turnover, is to hire H1-Bs who'll do as they're told.

Most workers do as they are told anyway. Moreover, a true leader gives his minions the illusion of self-control. Imports are not necessarily easier to "charm" than locals.

Peter P says

Rin says

A way to do this, w/o mass defection/turnover, is to hire H1-Bs who'll do as they're told.

Most workers do as they are told anyway. Moreover, a true leader gives his minions the illusion of self-control. Imports are not necessarily easier to "charm" than locals.

If one's a dickweed boss, which many are, the locals can jump ship but stay in the country.

Not all engineering is software.

Believe me, half the guys I work with are H1Bs. They cannot quit when they are told to work 24 hours straight because if they do they will revoke their visa. They are paid slightly less than american engineers but will work in much worse conditions because they have to. H1Bs are no better or worse than any american engineers... and that is exactly why you need to hire american engineers!

They say they are only bringing the best and the brightest, but they want to raise the H1B cap to 120k per year. Do not tell me you have 120K of the "best and brightest".

Rin says

The idea is that one is trained to think in terms of being open minded, while technical, in solving problems.

Perhaps, but software is rather ill-defined to be classified as "solvable" problems. It is too much of a moving target. One can approach it like a math puzzle, but any kind of rigid analysis will be futile. Heuristics can work for a while, but they entail assumptions that are bound to be in flux.

Rin says

If one's a dickweed boss, which many are, the locals can jump ship but stay in the country.

In reality, the distinction is less dramatic. Even locals have egos to satisfy. An attack to their worth is no more benign than an attack to their ability to stay n the country. Both are irrational, IMO.

Portal says

H1Bs are no better or worse than any american engineers... and that is exactly why you need to hire american engineers!

The problem is that it's for the wrong industry.

For instance, in the US, there are a number of projects to build out synfuel stations. There are simply not enough experienced chemical engineers for this work. In this case, my experience and my friends at the Navy Nuclear program, along with Exxon/Chevron/Shell, don't have the right profile.

Those H1-Bs need to go to engineers and consultants, who're experienced at Sasol Corp in South Africa, in synfuel production and applications, as Sasol has five decades of experience in the matter. These experienced ppl are critical in building critical mass in the US, for coal to gasoline conversion facilities.

Instead of that, they go to ordinary programmer analysts, who'd taken at most, a few college classes in those areas.

Peter P says

Heuristics can work for a while, but they entail assumptions that are bound to be in flux.

That's the thing, it is in flux and that's what makes for a great career in development and analysis. Engineers should definitely be paid as well as doctors.

Portal says

They cannot quit when they are told to work 24 hours straight because if they do they will revoke their visa.

There are always weak minds. I have friends who work long hours because they are "on a mission" to develop something cool and groundbreaking. Whatever.