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The class war is widening on airplanes


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2014 Sep 18, 6:37am   25,091 views  82 comments

by tovarichpeter   ➕follow (6)   💰tip   ignore  

http://www.economist.com/news/business/21618881-distance-between-back-and-front-plane-will-keep-widening-piketty-airways?fsrc=nlw|hig|18-09-2014|5356c841899249e1ccbce3f3|

Miami and Paris, after one annexed the sliver of territory they shared by reclining his seat. It was one of three such incidents within a fortnight which led to planes being diverted. Nowadays those at the cheap end of the plane barely have room to open their copies of Thomas Pikettys recent book lamenting a new age of inequality. Yet airlines think there is further scope for cramming more bodies into economy, and that passengers, for all their moans, will tolerate this in exchange for cheap fares. Meanwhile, business class keeps on getting comfier.

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1   Blurtman   2014 Sep 18, 6:46am  

My thoughts exactly. Those Recarro seats on the new 737 are incredibly narrow. Reducing its width when the width of Americans is increasing is asking for trouble. Sure, folks will put up with it until they don't. And business travelers don't always fly business class.

2   Tenpoundbass   2014 Sep 18, 6:55am  

Why the FUCK NOT!!!

After all it's the passengers fault, if the airline crams people in an airplane so cramped that that passengers nose behind you is planted in your asshole, you fart and it creates a ruckus between the two of you. It's rude obnixios passengers, everyone else was having a swell time, sniffing each other farts, and feeling the person sitting three rows in front arm pit hairs with your big toe.

They're having a BALL!!!!

3   Peter P   2014 Sep 18, 6:56am  

I always pay a bit more for extra-legroom seats. They are BETTER than seats 20 years ago. What's the fuss?

Besides, on an inflation-adjusted basis, a business class seat costs about as much as an economy seat 20 years ago.

The free market has made air travel affordable to MORE people, and now they are complaining. Unbelievable.

4   Tenpoundbass   2014 Sep 18, 6:59am  

$1200 bucks is not CHEAP by no definition.

People in first class pay for other perks, not for the privilege of flying with dignity and shown humanity in the service they get. They pay for the swag bag, the food, and twin bed. Come on now? You're just advocating that what was once considered economy class now be some up charge?

5   Peter P   2014 Sep 18, 7:00am  

Decades ago, air travel was a luxury. Now it is an affordable form of mass transportation. Many international airliners now offer 4 classes of service: first, business, premium, economy.

Premium is of excellent value in terms of comfort and price.

Passengers have time and again asked for lower fare in exchange for smaller seats. Their wish had been granted. Turned out they just prefer to moan and whine.

If their fat asses do not fit in standard seats, they should stay home.

In an ideal world fat people will pay more for their weight and girth.

Disclaimer: I am quite fat too.

6   Peter P   2014 Sep 18, 7:02am  

CaptainShuddup says

You're just advocating that what was once considered economy class now be some up charge?

I know what economy seats were like 20 years ago. They were about as big as United Economy Plus seats in 2014. Guys, Economy Plus costs only ~$30 more.

Free Market has a way to price things right.

7   Peter P   2014 Sep 18, 7:04am  

For 70% - 100% more on some international airlines, you get a seat that is 2 inches wider with 7 inches more legroom. That is almost the business-class standard 20 years ago.

First class costs 700%+ more on a long-haul flight. It better be super good.

8   EBGuy   2014 Sep 18, 8:19am  

I'm contemplating abandoning my normal carrier and flying my family home (couple thousand miles) on Southwest for Christmas. In Southwest's favor:
1. Cheaper fare
2. NO baggage fee
3. Free snacks
There would be a connection. I've only flown Southwest from the Bay Area to LA area for business. Am I missing some big downsides.

Edit: To be clear, I would have to do two hops regardless of airline.

9   swebb   2014 Sep 18, 8:41am  

EBGuy says

Am I missing some big downsides.

I'm not a big fan of changing planes, or even stopping over, if I can avoid it. Particularly when traveling with young children....

As far as Southwest downside? The whole "no assigned seats free-for-all" might be an issue when traveling as a group...

Also I haven't found Southwest to be cheaper very often in my market. (the primary reason I don't fly them very often)

10   Peter P   2014 Sep 18, 8:42am  

We fly between SFO and LAS. Somehow it appears that Virgin America has better on-time performance. But it could be an illusion.

I also prefer A320 over 737 because it is slightly wider.

11   MisdemeanorRebel   2014 Sep 18, 9:48am  

Peter P says

If their fat asses do not fit in standard seats, they should stay home.

I agree, airlines should be able to do what they went, when they 100% pay for 100% of the Airport Costs, 100% of the TSA, 100% of the FAA, and no special tax rates for their kerosene - same tax as everyone else, no special subsidy treatemnt.

12   Peter P   2014 Sep 18, 9:53am  

They are serving the public just fine. No matter how big the seats are, there will always be bigger asses. Those people can fly first class, buy two economy seats, or stay home.

Most passengers are NOT willing to pay more just so the fattest 1% can fit into a standard seat.

13   MisdemeanorRebel   2014 Sep 18, 10:08am  

Great, then they don't need the subsidies.

14   Peter P   2014 Sep 18, 10:18am  

sbh says

To get extra room in economy on United from Newark to Edinburgh and back the wife and I had to pony up an extra $500. I'm 6'1" and wanted the biz class fare and room (I don't really care about the $), but she twisted my ear and "she who must be obeyed" won this one.

Yeah, they charge quite a bit more for long-haul international flights. Still, that is $125 per person per flight. Not too bad.

(For that price, some airlines will let you sit at the emergency exit row.)

Just let your wife shop all she wants on the mileage credit card, then use the miles to upgrade. She will not object I bet. ;-)

15   Peter P   2014 Sep 18, 10:28am  

Alas, long-haul business class fare is just hard to swallow. It is difficult to justify $5000 when discounted economy is $1200 and premium is $1900.

Don't blame your wife.

16   Tenpoundbass   2014 Sep 18, 10:38am  

Peter P says

They were about as big as United Economy Plus seats in 2014. Guys,

Bull CRAP!!!

Even the media is reporting that the airlines them selves are admitting that they have been making seats tighter and tighter to squeeze in more seats, with every make over. It's not just about new upholstery.

17   Oilwelldoctor   2014 Sep 18, 10:41am  

For the last 30 or so years of my life I had to fly into third-world countries from the USA. Usually my company allowed a business seat but toward the end of my career, if they didn't I put out the extra money for the upgrade.

I no longer fly unless it is absolutely necessary. I must leave the Philippines where I live once a year for visa purposes. Although the flights from Manila are not as humiliating as in the US, it is still a hassle. A 40 minute flight to Malaysia. If there were a ferry service, I would gladly take it instead.

I truly believe the indignity suffered in US airports is conditioning for the future of America. Welcome to the cattle class.

18   Peter P   2014 Sep 18, 10:44am  

I am claustrophobic and I am very much aware of my personal space. I can tell you that extra-legroom seats nowadays beat regular seats 20 years ago. And I have had quite a bit of "personal growth" since then.

In fact, seats on newer 777s are wider than those on older 747s.

The AVERAGE seat size might have decreased because of low-cost carriers. But I do not fly Ryanair.

19   Strategist   2014 Sep 18, 11:55am  

Peter P says

Decades ago, air travel was a luxury. Now it is an affordable form of mass transportation. Many international airliners now offer 4 classes of service: first, business, premium, economy.

Premium is of excellent value in terms of comfort and price.

Passengers have time and again asked for lower fare in exchange for smaller seats. Their wish had been granted. Turned out they just prefer to moan and whine.

If their fat asses do not fit in standard seats, they should stay home.

In an ideal world fat people will pay more for their weight and girth.

Disclaimer: I am quite fat too.

Nice comment. Most airlines have submitted to customer demands of low fares without the frills. I don't care for peanuts, dinners, juice, movies, large seats, hot flight attendants, or any other bullshit. I only care for the money I save. I travel to get from point A to point B as cheaply and quickly as possible. I would rather use my money for other things instead of a big seat for a few hours.
I hope they make the seats even smaller for even lower fares.
Hey @Rin how much extra would you pay for a flight attendant to give you a lap dance during the flight?

20   Strategist   2014 Sep 18, 11:58am  

Peter P says

For 70% - 100% more on some international airlines, you get a seat that is 2 inches wider with 7 inches more legroom. That is almost the business-class standard 20 years ago.

First class costs 700%+ more on a long-haul flight. It better be super good.

What a rip off for a few hours of comfort.

21   Peter P   2014 Sep 18, 11:59am  

Strategist says

Peter P says

For 70% - 100% more on some international airlines, you get a seat that is 2 inches wider with 7 inches more legroom. That is almost the business-class standard 20 years ago.

First class costs 700%+ more on a long-haul flight. It better be super good.

What a rip off for a few hours of comfort.

Think of it as sparing yourself a few hours of discomfort. :-)

22   Strategist   2014 Sep 18, 12:03pm  

sbh says

To get extra room in economy on United from Newark to Edinburgh and back the wife and I had to pony up an extra $500.

Was it worth it for a few hours of comfort? You could buy an iphone with that, you know. Better value for money.

23   Tenpoundbass   2014 Sep 18, 12:12pm  

Oilwelldoctor says

A 40 minute flight to Malaysia. If there were a ferry service, I would gladly take it instead.

I truly believe the indignity suffered in US airports is conditioning for the future of America. Welcome to the cattle class.

A Bus ride in an American City is a bigger hassle than flying in and out of Asian airports. The thing is it's lose and Civil while they still show a security presence with out intimidating anyone that doesn't have any reason to intimidated by their presence. Like guards with M-16 that still manage to smile and greet you and exchange small talk while they ask for your passport. Nor or they too full of them selves to reach in you back pack to get your passport out of the middle pocket.

You pull that Shit on the American TSA and you'll find your self tasered and hog tied faster than you can say... "Hey I'm American I know my rights!"

We need that kind of security at the Voting poling stations.

24   MisdemeanorRebel   2014 Sep 18, 12:22pm  

CaptainShuddup says

Like guards with M-16 that still manage to smile and greet you and exchange small talk while they ask for your passport. Nor or they too full of them selves to reach in you back pack to get your passport out of the middle pocket.

You pull that Shit on the American TSA and you'll find your self tasered and hog tied faster than you can say... "Hey I'm American I know my rights!"

Yep. My experiences all over Asia, from Changi to the tiny little airport in Hat Yai.

No "C'mon, next person, NOW! NOW People, NOW! Let's Go! No, lady, use the other machine!" with Don Johnson scruff and his stained untucked shirt laying over his beer belly.

But "Hello, sir, might I trouble you to open your bag?" by a uniformed Sikh who looks like Punjab from Annie. As Punjab was speaking with me, two of his colleagues went through my luggage and refolded it better than I did. This was the checked luggage, btw.

I felt a lot safer with Punjab than with frumpy big mouth and his two colleagues who were discussing Saturday Night plans at the X-ray machine.

25   FortWayne   2014 Sep 18, 1:21pm  

All it'll take is one businessman outside the monopoly circle of airlines to start giving Americans comfort. Until then though.... With lack of competition there is no way airlines will better themselves.

26   dublin hillz   2014 Sep 19, 2:51am  

There's no reason to be upset about the conditions in coach on long haul flights. Just think about how much you are saving per hour vs upgrade. Then proceed to watch in flight movies, read, pop a tranquilizer in whatever order works best!

27   Blurtman   2014 Sep 19, 3:17am  

Travelers are paying more for less, until a smarter competitor offers a better deal. The new Boeing planes seem to be no different from this passenger's perspective, except that passengers are more cramped. This will not end well for the greedy carriers.

"It’s not your imagination—the already cramped, uncomfortable airline seat is shrinking even more.

The airlines have a good financial reason: Carriers are investing money, space, and design smarts—but mostly in the front of the plane. While catering to business and premium economy flyers, they’re literally shrinking seats in coach.

At one point in aviation history, the width between coach seat armrests was about 18.5 in. on Boeings’s 777 in the ’90s and in the A380 in the 2000s. Today, domestic travel is getting even more crunched. The width between coach seats is at best 8.25 in., and is usually less than that."

http://qz.com/177043/airline-seats-are-now-1-5-inches-narrower-than-they-used-to-be/

28   Tenpoundbass   2014 Sep 19, 3:27am  

dublin hillz says

Then proceed to watch in flight movies, read, pop a tranquilizer in whatever order works best!

I flew Coach via Continental across the Pacific onetime. Lucky for me, I was put by the bulkhead near the exit door. I didn't have to pay for it, I just ended up there, because FAA regulations says a puny girly Boy can't sit near the emergency exit. In case of an air disaster, they need someone that will rip the seized door from it's hinges and prepare to calmly and orderly usher folks off the burning plane.

So I lucked out by being chosen to switch seats with that person.
But what got me was the lack of water and service in general we got. It was a 13 hour flight, and the only time I saw water was at a mealtime. No snacks in between. The water was served in one of those 4oz organized refreshment punch cups, you see at cheesy events and functions. I'd get water served in a cup of that about every 6 hours. Even short domestic flights the Flight Attendants stroll by at least 3 or 4 times in a 3 hour flight, which was the same amount of times, I saw them on flight 10 hours more.

As I was sitting by the bulkhead, I didn't have the overhead button to call the flight attendant. The lights were out I'd say 80% of the flight, so you couldn't even really see if any were even on the floor.

29   Peter P   2014 Sep 19, 3:31am  

Not enough water? This is why I sometimes chat with the stewardesses in the galley and have all the water I want.

30   Tenpoundbass   2014 Sep 19, 4:02am  

Peter P says

This is why I sometimes chat with the stewardesses in the galley and have all the water I want.

Just to be clear here, we're still talking about H20 and not Patnet's censor word.

31   Peter P   2014 Sep 19, 4:04am  

Yes, H20. What were you thinking about?

32   Tenpoundbass   2014 Sep 19, 4:05am  

Peter P says

Yes, H20. What were you thinking about?

There was a time Patnet would filter Pornographic spam titles, and replace pornographic words with "Water". Like "Grow a longer Water".

33   Tenpoundbass   2014 Sep 19, 4:11am  

The thing I forgot to mention about the significance of me sitting by the Bulkhead. I did notice how cramped those seats were. The middle row had 5 seats, with about 9 inches from the edge of the seat to the back of the front seat. I would have died 13 hours of that.

I think that seating space is being considered for the average height of the world, 5' 4" and not the average height of the Average American Male, 5' 10".
So there for I recommend we reinstate White Only travel to accommodate what commercial service refuses to. As SONY once said... "Because Caucasians are too damned Tall!"

We can have white only airlines with all the leg room we can stand, and buses with plenty of room to stretch out. Short people can go on packing them selves unsafely into Sardine cans, or pay a premium to be treated like a human being.

What's the difference if the rich can have exclusive travel and be treated with respect and dignity, than so can anyone else.

34   Dan8267   2014 Sep 19, 4:12am  

Anyone who can't afford their own private jet should be turned into jet fuel for private jets. The government can sell this jet fuel to the rich and lower their taxes. It's the American way!

[...Apocalypsefuck, stay out of my mind.]

35   dublin hillz   2014 Sep 19, 4:13am  

There are people in the world who will never be able to afford to fly and americans are complaining about leg room...

36   Dan8267   2014 Sep 19, 4:14am  

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

Flying economy in the states is an invitation to be treated like an ASSHOLE!

There's plenty of room on the wings for these assholes if they complain about the crammed seats, body cavity searches, and the TSA stealing lingerie from their luggage.

37   Vicente   2014 Sep 19, 4:15am  

Dan8267 says

Anyone who can't afford their own private jet should be turned into jet fuel for private jets. The government can sell this jet fuel to the rich and lower their taxes. It's the American way!

Airlines should build their own airports, and run ATC and everything else too. Having that infrastructure run by government is COMMUNISM and the root of all air travel evils.

38   Dan8267   2014 Sep 19, 4:15am  

dublin hillz says

There are people in the world who will never be able to afford to fly and americans are complaining about leg room...

Or more precisely that the leg of the guy in back of you is halfway up your ass. And the asshole doesn't even have the courtesy to give you a reach around!

39   Peter P   2014 Sep 19, 4:20am  

In the end, seating space is determined by the market. Passengers will be even more upset if they are forced to pay more for bigger seats.

I feel respected in the economy section of Virgin America. I can order a free tea from the touch screen and it will come promptly.

I used to complain to my wife about the lack of legroom and the high price of business class.

She said, "This happens because you suck."

And she was right.

40   Blurtman   2014 Sep 19, 5:01am  

They are upset now being forced to pay more for less.

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