patrick.net

RO desalination in California is silly. Too expensive, too energy intensive, and only 20% of the state's fresh water is used outside of agriculture.

Solar desalination for agriculture use however IMO looks quite technically and economically feasible, almost to the point of being a no brainier.

New Renter says

Solar desalination for agriculture use however IMO looks quite technically and economically feasible, almost to the point of being a no brainier. [sic]

Solar desalination has many viable uses, but I am always skeptical when someone calls an idea a "no brainer," i.e. a brainless idea. Aside from the Cartesian existential question, it makes me suspect they've overlooked something. In California, agriculture is overwhelmingly inland, at significant elevation. Water weighs one ton per cubic meter, so pumping it up from the ocean to inland farms would require a huge amount of energy. The urban areas are mainly on the coast, so desalination makes more sense there.

I have heard Peter Demandis say that this is just down the road, a machine the size of an office refrigerator could produce gallons of potable water from any water source.

Remember folks always bet on technology.

The purpose of having desalination facilities is to avoid a shock of a shortage, since we can't always rely upon Canada to back us up in the final moments.

This is akin to my science/engineering sponsorship/welfare state. If we let things deteriorate in the current manner, in the future, most bright would be STEM students will have become pre-heathcare, pre-finance, or pre-management consulting, instead. In fact, I'd left engineering for finance because I wasn't planning on making my life a statistic, like others in postdoc land.

Since it would be disastrous for the US to have very few STEM graduates by the year 2030, likewise, in a parallel analogy, it would be disastrous if we only relied upon natural water sources and the Great White North for our emergency fresh water needs.

Rin says

If we let things deteriorate in the current manner, in the future, most bright would be STEM students will have become pre-heathcare, pre-finance, or pre-management consulting, instead.

To answer curious2 ... why this won't result in Meth labs and a new Unabomber is that the US govt, particularly the DEA/NSA will know who's in this program and thus, being clandestine is a bit difficult.

A person getting into illegal activities will make much more money, simply making new derivatives of ecstasy than in getting a stipend from the govt. Plus, the DEA will know who're the biochemists (or potentials) on the program, narrowing down the list of suspects. Likewise, a future Ted Kaczynski will be seen, cashing checks in remote locations in Montana/Idaho/South America. The reason why the real Unabomber was able to hide for so many years was that he was off the grid.

What's a bigger problem is that at some point in time, most Americans will not study STEM anymore. This is inevitable, as everyone in the know, knows that academia simply wants to generate more cannon fodder for graduate school programs. A person with commonsense will not opt for STEM studies down the road. Even pre-heath care/premed means intro to biology, chemistry (plus organic), and physics. It's not a full major in the sciences. Some more practical ppl will more likely do a BS in accounting, take the basic premed requisites, and apply for medical school, using accounting as a backup plan B.

Once the above goes mainstream, we'll lose an entire generation of scientists and engineers to the rising nations in Asia & eastern Europe. And then, when the current generation of STEM workers in defense (or wherever) retire, it's curtain call for science and engineering in America.

Rin says

To answer curious2 ... why this won't result in Meth labs and a new Unabomber

Where does curious2 ask this question?

indigenous says

Rin says

To answer curious2 ... why this won't result in Meth labs and a new Unabomber

Where does curious2 ask this question?

Older thread ...

http://patrick.net/?p=1248494

The first mention in that thread, that I see was by you?

"What about your Meth lab analogy? Isn't that also 'south side' related?"

Anyway as long as we are free associating:

What if drugs were legal? would there be any more abuse than there is now?

As far as STEM worker being subsidized by the government goes, what would happen if the government did not subsidize the war machine?

If things were decentralized would economic activities be the same? Chris Martenson talks about 3 tiers of economic activity. 1 = products directly from the land, farming, fishing, mining, 2 =products made from the 1st tier, 3 = finance. I can see there will always be basic banking (maybe with interest rates controlled by the market) OTOH will there be centralized MBS derivatives being bailed out by a whole country actually involving the whole world?

What does this have to do with desalinization? Beats me...

The analogy to desalination is that right now, there's enough fresh water, esp if you include Canada, to serve much of the country. Thus, the private sector or municipal financed desalination facilities are considered 'nice to have' but not necessary. If/when a true shortage hits, a major drought or Canadian's start rationing for their own survival, then it'll be difficult to deploy desalination plants in time, to stop a major supply problem.

The comparison to STEM shortage is that when all the S&E R&D is done in Asia, excluding India, and then, all the US based defense engineers retire, there will be minimal STEM trained ppl in the country. All of them will have been absorbed into the rentier economy, selling favors to politicians or working in health care, and then, you'll see 1st world Asia and 3rd world America, in an irreversible pattern and even US intrastructure, including electronics, will be repaired/maintained by Asian corporations/contractors.

And I don't have an issue with lazy STEM geniuses, using their stipend to live in a storage unit in Boulder Colorado, and smoke weed all day.

Some of them may get together and discuss nonlinear dynamical systems.

Others perhaps, may play some volleyball or golf.

curious2 says

New Renter says

Solar desalination for agriculture use however IMO looks quite technically and economically feasible, almost to the point of being a no brainier. [sic]

Solar desalination has many viable uses, but I am always skeptical when someone calls an idea a "no brainer," i.e. a brainless idea. Aside from the Cartesian existential question, it makes me suspect they've overlooked something. In California, agriculture is overwhelmingly inland, at significant elevation. Water weighs one ton per cubic meter, so pumping it up from the ocean to inland farms would require a huge amount of energy. The urban areas are mainly on the coast, so desalination makes more sense there.

Which is why I used the term almost. Sure there are unknowns which is why I hedged my confidence level. Still its the most promising solution of which I am aware.

The idea is not to pump seawater to the central valley for desalination. The idea is to use local water currently too saline to be used as is. Right now agriculture (accounts for ~80% of CA fresh water usage) uses fresh water aquifers which are rapidly becoming depleted. Solar desalination can convert pretty much 100% of that water to fresh using little to no more energy than is already being used to pump water to the surface and probably less since farmers have had to drill very deep for fresh water.

With solar desalination runoff from the fields can be recycled as well. Another use would be to on site recycling of animal waste as fresh water for animal use (animals don't have the same "ick" factor as humans to toilet to tap) and sell the remaining solids as organic fertilizer. The latter can help recoup the capital cost of the still.

Solar desalination has the advantages of:
Proven technology
Modularity
Scalability
Relatively low cost (to RO desalination plants)
93-100% conversion efficiency
Market for recovered solids
Low energy requirements

http://www.sfgate.com/science/article/California-drought-Solar-desalination-plant-5326024.php

SolarFX claims their stills can operate even at night and on cloudy days due to their use of mineral oil as a working fluid. I can also see they might be able to modify the stills to produce electricity by superheating the steam and using a steam based generator while continuing to produce fresh water. That would allow the stills to continue their usefulness in wet years.

(That's important since the Carlsbad RO plant was abandoned in the 1990s when the rains came back.)

Normally I'm a big skeptic of anything solar but on this application I'm very confident.

New Renter says

SolarFX claims their stills can operate even at night and on cloudy days due to their use of mineral oil as a working fluid. I can also see they might be able to modify the stills to produce electricity by superheating the steam and using a steam based generator while continuing to produce fresh water. That would allow the stills to continue their usefulness in wet years.

The thing here is that it's using the heat/light of the sun, to do its actual work, which is the boil/distill the briny water.

Rin says

New Renter says

SolarFX claims their stills can operate even at night and on cloudy days due to their use of mineral oil as a working fluid. I can also see they might be able to modify the stills to produce electricity by superheating the steam and using a steam based generator while continuing to produce fresh water. That would allow the stills to continue their usefulness in wet years.

The thing here is that it's using the heat/light of the sun, to do its actual work, which is the boil/distill the sea water.

I wonder if California can have a combined-cycle fracking/RO setup.

Perhaps the waste water from RO can be used to extract shale gas, which can in turned be used to power the RO? I don't know anything about the process. Just throwing ideas around.

Peter P says

combined-cycle fracking/RO setup.

How about making it three way ... the Solar station does much of the work and during that time, the fracking sends power back to the grid, and when the Solar output declines, lack of sunshine, then the fracking powers the RO. In the end, the water purification is a 7x24 operation.

Rin says

Peter P says

combined-cycle fracking/RO setup.

How about making it three way ... the Solar station does much of the work and during that time, the fracking sends power back to the grid, and when the Solar output declines, lack of sunshine, then the fracking powers the RO. In the end, the water purification is a 7x24 operation.

Excellent! I like three-ways. :-)

Peter P says

Rin says

Peter P says

combined-cycle fracking/RO setup.

How about making it three way ... the Solar station does much of the work and during that time, the fracking sends power back to the grid, and when the Solar output declines, lack of sunshine, then the fracking powers the RO. In the end, the water purification is a 7x24 operation.

Excellent! I like three-ways. :-)

We're not in Montreal right now, get your head out of the gutter.

New Renter says

The idea is not to pump seawater to the central valley for desalination. The idea is to use local water currently too saline to be used as is.

Just out of curiosity, exactly how does the local inland water get salty in the first place?

Rin says

Peter P says

combined-cycle fracking/RO setup.

How about making it three way ... the Solar station does much of the work and during that time, the fracking sends power back to the grid, and when the Solar output declines, lack of sunshine, then the fracking powers the RO. In the end, the water purification is a 7x24 operation.

And here's the part that gets the farmers who buy his water most excited: His solar desalination plant produces water that costs about a quarter of what more conventionally desalinated water costs: $450 an acre-foot versus $2,000 an acre-foot.

That's why. That's $2000/acre foot assuming the plant is in constant use. Shuttering an RO plant makes the water that much more expensive:

http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_25859513/nations-largest-ocean-desalination-plant-goes-up-near

It makes no economic sense to build a hugely expensive RO plant for part time use.

zzyzzx says

New Renter says

The idea is not to pump seawater to the central valley for desalination. The idea is to use local water currently too saline to be used as is.

Just out of curiosity, exactly how does the local inland water get salty in the first place?

Agriculture runoff and local geology.

New Renter says

It makes no economic sense to build a hugely expensive RO plant for part time use.

Since this one RO plant is already built, perhaps it can be the "backup" for SoCal and the rest of AZ & NM.

Then, smaller Solar stations can be deployed elsewhere, to make up 80% of the demand for potable water.

Rin says

New Renter says

It makes no economic sense to build a hugely expensive RO plant for part time use.

Since this one RO plant is already built, perhaps it can be the "backup" for SoCal and the rest of AZ & NM.

Then, smaller Solar stations can be deployed elsewhere, to make up 80% of the demand for potable water.

The Carlsbad plant at best provides but 7% of the current needs of San Diego County, and none for LA county. Its but a very expensive drop in a very big bucket.

AZ and NM are on their own here.

AZ and NM could however benefit greatly from Solar Desal assuming they have enough local brackish water available to make it work

New Renter says

Its but a very expensive drop in a very big bucket.

Not a problem, just put it in the defense budget.

RO is all about driving salt water through a membrane. I wonder if it can be used in a tidal setup. Desalination can be powered by gravity.

Peter P says

RO is all about driving salt water through a membrane. I wonder if it can be used in a tidal setup. Desalination can be powered by gravity

I'd tested the solar distillation with a Fresnel lens with a jug of water, a long time ago. It was rather effective.

Rin says

I'd tested the solar distillation with a Fresnel lens with a jug of water, a long time ago. It was rather effective.

Cool.

Peter P says

Rin says

I'd tested the solar distillation with a Fresnel lens with a jug of water, a long time ago. It was rather effective.

Cool.

Given the amount of sunshine, SoCal gets, using reflective mirrors to heat up an input stream of sea water may be a great way to mass produce fresh water.

Rin says

Given the amount of sunshine, SoCal gets, using reflective mirrors to heat up an input stream of sea water may be a great way to mass produce fresh water.

SoCal also has expensive real estate though. Will mirrors take up too much space?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power

Peter P says

SoCal also has expensive real estate though. Will mirrors take up too much space?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power

Perhaps then, as a DoD project, an aqueduct into the SoCal deserts, with Solar distillation systems in place there. This could be covered under a black budget of *what if all the US's fresh water is contaminated* type of doomsday scenario. You see, once you move money out of the public funding space, anything can be done. Didn't the Pentagon lose a couple of trillion, not knowing where it went, a number of years ago?

Wouldn't it be easier to solar-distill inland grey/black water for those communities?

Peter P says

Wouldn't it be easier to solar-distill inland grey/black water for those communities?

This is a DoD project, so the idea is to mass produce fresh water, using the ocean as the source, not a local municipal thing. Then, the target distribution could be anywhere in the southwest regions.

So granted, it's not water for all of the US but more a fail-safe strategy so that if a shortage occurs, there's a backup plan in place. Just like the Eisenhower highway system was originally intended for military troops and vehicles, however, the net benefit was also for the civilian population.

Rin says

the net benefit was also for the civilian population.

Here's one potential future benefit ... New Mexico's northwest has a lot of coal mining. It's a perfect stop for a coal-to-gasoline conversion plant but here's the problem ... where would it get the vast amount of water, as synfuel production requires a huge water intake for the WGSR/Fischer-Tropsch synthesis?

Yes, it would be Cali's ocean water to the rescue.

Peter P says

RO is all about driving salt water through a membrane. I wonder if it can be used in a tidal setup. Desalination can be powered by gravity.

Highly unlikely:

For brackish water desalination the operating pressures range from 250 to 400 psi, and for seawater desalination from 800 to 1 000 psi.

http://www.oas.org/usde/publications/Unit/oea59e/ch20.htm

a one-metre (three-foot) column of seawater produces a pressure of about one decibar (0.1 atmosphere)

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/531121/seawater/301668/Density-of-seawater-and-pressure

So even with a high to low tidal difference of 10 feet you're only looking at 1/3 of an atmosphere pressure difference or 5 psi, nowhere near enough to push the water through a membrane.

New Renter says

So even with a high to low tidal difference of 10 feet you're only looking at 1/3 of an atmosphere pressure difference or 5 psi, nowhere near enough to push the water through a membrane.

What if it is concentrated at a small inlet?

Peter P says

New Renter says

So even with a high to low tidal difference of 10 feet you're only looking at 1/3 of an atmosphere pressure difference or 5 psi, nowhere near enough to push the water through a membrane.

What if it is concentrated at a small inlet?

Makes no difference. The weight of the water is supported by the container and the ground beneath as well as the small area of the membrane

Rin says

Just like the Eisenhower highway system was originally intended for military troops and vehicles, however, the net benefit was also for the civilian population.

Yes! Just like Hitler's Nazi Autobahn!

Rin says

Rin says

the net benefit was also for the civilian population.

Here's one potential future benefit ... New Mexico's northwest has a lot of coal mining. It's a perfect stop for a coal-to-gasoline conversion plant but here's the problem ... where would it get the vast amount of water, as synfuel production requires a huge water intake for the WGSR/Fischer-Tropsch synthesis?

Yes, it would be Cali's ocean water to the rescue.

Assuming you're not speaking tounge-in-cheek you'd also have to pump that water 800 miles and 5500 ft up, not an inexpensive proposition in itself.

It'd be a LOT better to just use local water out of the Navajo reservoir.

indigenous says

I have heard Peter Demandis say that this is just down the road, a machine the size of an office refrigerator could produce gallons of potable water from any water source.

Remember folks always bet on technology.

OK, feel free to leverage your life savings right here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersonic_transport

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion
http://www.fool.com/portfolios/rulebreaker/2000/rulebreaker001114.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_vehicle

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/05/21/1210825/-Why-should-Californians-pay-for-50-billion-tunnel-boondoggle#

New Renter says

Agriculture runoff and local geology.

Why is there salt in agricultural runoff? I mean, it's not like farmers are salting their fields...

New Renter says

Makes no difference. The weight of the water is supported by the container and the ground beneath as well as the small area of the membrane

Or... Use wave action to pump the water into a column 1600 to 2000 ft high in order to generate the required pressure. Too ugly? Use the same pumping system to get it high enough to Roman aqueduct it to the central valley for solar processing?

New Renter says

Assuming you're not speaking tounge-in-cheek you'd also have to pump that water 800 miles and 5500 ft up, not an inexpensive proposition in itself.

It'd be a LOT better to just use local water out of the Navajo reservoir

Tongue/cheek, however, it also makes the point about the DoD, being able to transport large volumes of fresh water, anywhere in the zone.

Thus, the NM synfuel station would simply be a beneficiary of the black budget projects, as oppose to let's say Blackwater.

Of course, if the doomsday super-drought scenario occurs, that synfuel water feed stream, will then be loaded onto local NM aqueducts (or transporters) to be distributed to municipalities.

zzyzzx says

New Renter says

Agriculture runoff and local geology.

Why is there salt in agricultural runoff? I mean, it's not like farmers are salting their fields...

Actually they are - with ammonium nitrate, phosphates, etc.