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Apple ex-managers talk about the company


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2014 Oct 1, 12:14am   7,564 views  51 comments

by Rin   ➕follow (8)   💰tip   ignore  

http://www.businessinsider.com/these-people-are-nuts-what-working-for-apple-is-really-like-2014-10

Excerpt:

Staff members get emails from their bosses at 1 a.m. — and are expected to reply immediately.

Melton says in the podcast that "Sunday is a work night for everybody at Apple because it’s the exec meeting the next day. So you had your phone out there, you were sitting in front of your computer, it didn’t matter if your favorite show was on."

So here's my question ... if one didn't grow up in the SFBA, why would they want to study STEM and work for Apple? For one, you'll relocate into an area with no friends, no time to make any (a.k.a zero social life), a regular six figure income but much of it, spent on high rent and living expenses.

Instead, wouldn't it have been better to attend dental school, have a six figure income but work 40 hours per week? And then, if you wanted to bank much of it, you can live in Des Moines Iowa, and still have enough time/money to periodically fly home to Boston-to-DC (or wherever).

Sure, I work crazy hours, however, I'm a junior partner at a hedge fund and have equity in the firm. So as the firm grows, so does my exit package. In the end, while I won't miss the job, at least it'll set me up for good.

The way I see Apple is that it's a job to setup the resume for additional jobs, down the road. Aside from that, it appears to be a lousy company to work for.

My advice ... go to dental or medical school.

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1   Tenpoundbass   2014 Oct 1, 12:27am  

You don't work at places like Google or Apple as a developer, working 16 hours a day. With aspirations of retiring as a coder. The idea is to work your ass off, and upward, to jokey your self as Larry Page's replacement when he retires or invents a new role for himself.

If your dream is to work and toil away quietly 40 hours a day, then go home and leave the office all behind. There's plenty of jobs out there for that.

2   Rin   2014 Oct 1, 12:33am  

CaptainShuddup says

The idea is to work your ass off, and upward, to jokey your self as Larry Page's replacement when he retires or invents a new role for himself.

I sort of gathered that it was a part of being in some insider's club.

3   Rin   2014 Oct 1, 12:36am  

CaptainShuddup says

If your dream is to work and toil away quietly 40 hours a day, then go home and leave the office all behind. There's plenty of jobs out there for that

In terms of six figure salaries, there are fewer 40 hour jobs out there.

The best is still dentistry, as their avg work week is something like 36 hours. Of course, the more you work, the more you get paid. I believe that a workaholic can move to Des Moines Iowa, work all the time, and bank over $300K/yr, as a dentist.

Then, move back home to [ Boston, Philly, DC, Richmond, Atlanta ] and take on a lighter load.

4   elliemae   2014 Oct 1, 1:59am  

I wish I was supposed to be a dentist. Or could do math and work at a hedge fund. Or program and work for whoever the fuck I want.

Unfortunately, I'm supposed to be a medical social worker - I do work at the higher paid side of social work (private company). I work with people who are dying and need emotional support, referrals for assistance, help with funeral planning... ya know, fun stuff. No, seriously I enjoy assisting people at this time and being part of a caregiving team. I work for good people and so far haven't fucked up badly enough to be fired. yet.

I could have gotten a job as a CPS worker, removing babies from homes and enjoying seeing abused kids and all that different kind of fun stuff... That does pay more but the burnout rate is much higher. As is the alcoholism rate, and the drug abuse rate, depression, suicidal ideation, dreams of going into work and smacking around your supervisor...

But I digress. I was laid off for over a year during the recession, have been downsized several times. I have no savings, my company has no retirement, and I'm fucked. I shall be at the mercy of some new fucking social worker who is hoping to someday get a job at CPS.

I'm so fucked.

5   HydroCabron   2014 Oct 1, 2:18am  

elliemae says

help with funeral planning... ya know, fun stuff. ...

I have no savings, my company has no retirement, and I'm fucked. I shall be at the mercy of some new fucking social worker who is hoping to someday get a job at CPS.

I'm so fucked

Don't sugar-coat it!

Why didn't you flip shacks and sell tranches of mortgage-backed shit to widows and orphans? You had the same chances as everyone else...

6   Rew   2014 Oct 1, 2:29am  

elliemae says

I wish I was supposed to be a dentist.

Ellie, from what little I see of your communication here on p net, I believe you are a very sharp and dedicated person. Try not to despair and I bet you can find something ... anything ... and one thing will lead to another.

7   Peter P   2014 Oct 1, 2:51am  

CaptainShuddup says

You don't work at places like Google or Apple as a developer, working 16 hours a day. With aspirations of retiring as a coder. The idea is to work your ass off, and upward, to jokey your self as Larry Page's replacement when he retires or invents a new role for himself.

The 16-hour day is perhaps a myth. I have never worked more than 40 hours a week (on average) in software development. It is about how you set expectations and how you exceed them. The rest is all politics.

Coders do not aspire to climb the ladder in places like Google. They all plan to start their own companies some day. Unfortunately, the GOLDEN HANDCUFF can be a huge impediment. The generous compensation package and benefits are hard to place. Still, it can be a great place to get stuck doing development work.

8   Peter P   2014 Oct 1, 2:55am  

Rin says

In terms of six figure salaries, there are fewer 40 hour jobs out there.

Really, software development in a large company filled with smart people and lead by true geniuses (NOT industrial designers or dimension-changers) will fit the bill.

The work week may be longer than 40 hours sometimes but nobody will raise an eyebrow if you leave at 4pm when things are quiet.

9   Peter P   2014 Oct 1, 3:07am  

Rin says

The way I see Apple is that it's a job to setup the resume for additional jobs, down the road. Aside from that, it appears to be a lousy company to work for.

For a developer or engineer, I don't see how it's impressive to have Apple on your resume.

Top computer science graduates do not seem to think highly of Apple anyway.

Google or Facebook, maybe.

10   Tenpoundbass   2014 Oct 1, 3:28am  

Peter P says

The 16-hour day is perhaps a myth. I have never worked more than 40 hours a week (on average) in software development.

Are you saying it's a myth in the programming world, or are you saying you work at Google and you have never worked more than 40 hours?

There's been plenty of times that I have had to put in 16 hour days through out my career. They are usually accompanied by many 16 hour days back to back, and they seem like they'll go on for ever with no relief in sight.

There are usually two reasons for it.

First because I'm part of some software development team, who in spite of my fair warnings and predictions, kept a design through out development. That by launch time reared it's ugly head and bit everyone on the Ass. The whole development team has to then scramble and practically rewrite fundamental design while it is live. These are most always companies that have made a big to do, about dev, stage and prod pushes, and have such a politcal cluster fuck in place for the procedure to move code between the two environments. That by time the five alarm software launch fire is blazing full out of control. The whole company and team has abandoned all pomp and procedures, to just doing ad hock repairs and pushes straight to Prod on the fly. I have learned to spot these companies during interviews and will walk out of them, just as fast as I walked into them. If they are a scrum shop and harp on and on about unit testing, and code commenting and all of the various shit that does absolutely nothing to get the job done other than stand in the way of progress. While at the same time telling me about the last three failed software releases, I know it's time to go. These places get in their own damn way. It's always the developers that takes the blame.

The other reason I've worked 16 hour days, is because I'm working as a vendor with my own clients, on a deliverable basis. So it makes no difference if I bang out the job in the 3 months allotted for the contract or in just three weeks. I'll get paid the same. I'm a long term chronic lazy ass, so from time to time. I'll really break my neck to bang it out. Just so I can get back to doing what I love. Absolutely nothing.

11   Rin   2014 Oct 1, 3:41am  

Peter P says

Rin says

In terms of six figure salaries, there are fewer 40 hour jobs out there.

Really, software development in a large company filled with smart people and lead by true geniuses (NOT industrial designers or dimension-changers) will fit the bill.

The work week may be longer than 40 hours sometimes but nobody will raise an eyebrow if you leave at 4pm when things are quiet.

Obviously, nobody's punching a clock but what I'd seen is that typically, 9-11 hours per day, and sure, ppl leaving at 4 PM on a Thursday, is common, but overall, it accumulates into a busy weekwork, and greater than 40 hours.

The hours of a dentist, however, are fairly consistent, 7AM to 3PM. Now, since many ppl work regular hours, a dentist could easily shift his hours to 6AM-9AM and then 5PM-10PM and he'd have tons of customers, since those hours are convenient for the typical worker bee. And then, if a dentist adds more hours to his day, his pay goes up.

12   Peter P   2014 Oct 1, 3:42am  

CaptainShuddup says

Are you saying it's a myth in the programming world, or are you saying you work at Google and you have never worked more than 40 hours?

I worked at large, medium, and small companies. I also worked for a certain highly successful search company.

ON AVERAGE, I never worked more than 40 hours a week.

CaptainShuddup says

The other reason I've worked 16 hour days, is because I'm working as a vendor with my own clients, on a deliverable basis. So it makes no difference if I bang out the job in the 3 months allotted for the contract or in just three weeks.

Of course. That is a very good reason. But then you are not a salaried employee.

13   Rin   2014 Oct 1, 3:42am  

Peter P says

For a developer or engineer, I don't see how it's impressive to have Apple on your resume.

I've asked myself the same question.

14   Peter P   2014 Oct 1, 3:48am  

Rin says

Peter P says

For a developer or engineer, I don't see how it's impressive to have Apple on your resume.

I've asked myself the same question.

For a software guy, it is much better to have some big-data experience. Nowadays, the success of a startup depends on its ability to scale WAY up. The idea itself rarely matters anymore. This is not 1998.

So, a stint at Google, Facebook, LinkedIn will look more impressive.

15   HydroCabron   2014 Oct 1, 3:48am  

CaptainShuddup says

There's been plenty of times that I have had to put in 16 hour days ... There are usually two reasons for it...

First because I'm part of some software development team, who in spite of my fair warnings and predictions, kept a design through out development

I'm sure that problems in the development cycle are always due to people ignoring your warnings.

You must be great fun to collaborate with. I'm surprised you haven't been stabbed.

16   Peter P   2014 Oct 1, 3:50am  

Rin says

Obviously, nobody's punching a clock but what I'd seen is that typically, 9-11 hours per day, and sure, ppl leaving at 4 PM on a Thursday, is common, but overall, it accumulates into a busy weekwork, and greater than 40 hours.

This seems to be true in finance though. I have seen people doing 0530 to 1730 every day.

17   Rin   2014 Oct 1, 3:51am  

Peter P says

For a software guy, it is much better to have some big-data experience. Nowadays, the success of a startup depends on its ability to scale WAY up. The idea itself rarely matters anymore. This is not 1998.

So, a stint at Google, Facebook, LinkedIn will look more impressive.

I'd think that a shop which uses a large Oracle installation may be even better, as Oracle's pretty much, the standard for the Fortune 1000's data volumes.

18   Peter P   2014 Oct 1, 3:55am  

CaptainShuddup says

If they are a scrum shop and harp on and on about unit testing, and code commenting and all of the various shit that does absolutely nothing to get the job done other than stand in the way of progress.

Oh, why are you against unit-testing. It is actually good shit. :-)

People do it wrong though. They start with huge end-to-end tests that take ages to run. Yet a single code change will render 70% of the tests obsolete.

Anyway, software is a place where hard-work can be a liability. Robust-laziness should be the goal.

19   Rin   2014 Oct 1, 3:56am  

Peter P says

Rin says

Obviously, nobody's punching a clock but what I'd seen is that typically, 9-11 hours per day, and sure, ppl leaving at 4 PM on a Thursday, is common, but overall, it accumulates into a busy weekwork, and greater than 40 hours.

This seems to be true in finance though. I have seen people doing 0530 to 1730 every day.

When I was a contractor, I'd seen it in a lot of places minus govt and consumer products, where everyone took it easy.

Buy yeah, finance and law have long hours.

20   Rin   2014 Oct 1, 3:58am  

Rin says

Buy yeah, finance and law have long hours.

The plus side is that I can expense the hotel rooms up in Montreal. All I have to do to justify it is to call one client and those are my friends up in Canada.

21   Peter P   2014 Oct 1, 4:02am  

Rin says

I'd think that a shop which uses a large Oracle installation may be even better, as Oracle's pretty much, the standard for the Fortune 1000's data volumes.

Oracle is EXCELLENT for large enterprises in terms of data storage and analysis. However, relational databases have trouble with very large data sets. Even the biggest companies have tiny data sets compared to ALL the user data out there. :-)

Nowadays, it is a good idea for a startup to consider scalability on day one. If they start with SQL they may end up developing features (like those "clever" joins) that are nearly impossible to scale. I am talking about hundreds of servers distributed across the globe. (With services like Amazon AWS it is a matter of running a script.)

22   Tenpoundbass   2014 Oct 1, 4:04am  

Unit testing tests are no replacement for a thorough QA process.

Not to mention you as a developer making anywhere from 50K to 120K are rewriting the same code you just wrote for the Unit test, then you have to tweak and rework your own code, just so it can be compatible with the Unit testing software. When that process is complete, then only thing that team of developers have created is a successful Unit Test case.
Now how well it still fist your business process is to be determined, but some shitty Scrum master now gets to cover his ass by saying. "It all passed the Unit tests."

Do you really think that all of those Obama websites that have failed, virtually all of them for those of you paying attention at home, were NOT thoroughly Unit tested, and passed with impressive flying colors?

Give me an obnoxious QA person who's job it is to break my code, any day.
I hate them and we end up wanting to break each other's neck, but in the end we're both normally proud of each others accomplishments and input.
They can trouble shoot not only code down to the most petty minutia, but the UI as well. Which Unit testing really doesn't do.

More over!!!!
And this is a very very very important point. In this day and age of design patterns, and reusable libraries. It's kind of silly to keep doing such low level computer testing on code that has proved itself time and time again.

There are companies out there still using software I wrote in 2006.

23   Peter P   2014 Oct 1, 4:06am  

Rin says

The plus side is that I can expense the hotel rooms up in Montreal. All I have to do to justify it is to call one client and those are my friends up in Canada.

Get one with a rotating bed. :-)

Law has long hours because it is a billable-hour type business. You are the fixed cost. Your work is the variable income.

24   Peter P   2014 Oct 1, 4:10am  

CaptainShuddup says

Unit testing tests are no replacement for a through QA process.

A good unit-testing process *IS* a huge part of the QA process. Instead of having a team of 3-4 testers, you just need 1 QA engineer to oversee automated testing.

CaptainShuddup says

Not to mention you as a developer making anywhere from 50K to 120K are rewriting the same code you just wrote for the Unit test, then you have to tweak and rework your own code, just so it can be compatible with the Unit testing software.

Good, clean code is usually compatible with unit testing. It is the UI that is problematic.

One can certainly architect for testability. One tip: do not use the MVC paradigm, use Model-View-Presenter instead. You want the hard-to-test UI to be a thin veneer over testable logic.

25   Peter P   2014 Oct 1, 4:16am  

CaptainShuddup says

And this is a very very very important point. In this day and age of design patterns, and reusable libraries. It's kind of silly to keep doing such low level computer testing on code that has proved itself time and time again.

Oh, I beg to differ.

The whole idea of Design Patterns was about making sense with limiting languages and tools (like C++ and Java). With an expressive language with flexible syntax and good meta-programming support, one can completely do away with design patterns.

Software reusability is a myth. You need to have perfect knowledge of the future to design perfectly reusable code. In reality, such libraries or frameworks are either too general to be useful, or too limiting to be useful.

I advocate the use of bespoke frameworks and problem/domain-specific languages.

Adapting an open-source tool frequently means even more work. Worse yet, you are importing THEIR future path of growth. Sometimes, it's worth it. Usually, you better think twice.

26   Tenpoundbass   2014 Oct 1, 4:17am  

No I wanna write code that works. I've spent the last 25 years learning code and standards, to have them change, then back in fashion, to now MVC is a hodgepodge of everything that was sworn off in the last 15 years and is this huge clusterfuck library of why the hell not.

I squat on Microsoft. Most of what is presented in the ASP.NET libraries were meant to showcase the power of .NET. 90% of the Developers out there have no freaking clue the power and simplicity that is possible just writing straight up .net code and using just regular html elements instead of the .NET controls. It's all about json, web methods and jquery.

MVC is just a huge scrotum hammering for the sake of stupidity.

Especially now that jQuery has entered the picture.

27   Heraclitusstudent   2014 Oct 1, 4:20am  

Rin says

Instead, wouldn't it have been better to attend dental school, have a six figure income but work 40 hours per week?

Try to spend 40hours a week in other people's mouths.

Most of them stink. Some have contagious diseases.

After a few years of that, I'm sure dentists feel like studying mathematics.

28   Peter P   2014 Oct 1, 4:21am  

CaptainShuddup says

I squat on Microsoft. Most of what is presented in the ASP.NET libraries were meant to showcase the power of .NET. 90% of the Developers out there have no freaking clue the power and simplicity that is possible just writing straight up .net code and using just regular html elements instead of the .NET controls. It's all about json, web methods and jquery.

F# is my favorite language.

For web stuff, one should take a serious look at AngularJS.

Most startups do not think about the long-term maintainability of their code bases. They usually fail at the 4-year mark, precisely the amount of time it takes for code-hacks to degenerate into unworkable shit. All progress grinds to a halt and so it ends.

29   Peter P   2014 Oct 1, 4:22am  

Heraclitusstudent says

Try to spend 40hours a week in other people's mouths.

I thought that is relatively pleasant for an oral-type work. :-)

30   Rew   2014 Oct 1, 4:23am  

Rin says

The way I see Apple is that it's a job to setup the resume for additional jobs, down the road. Aside from that, it appears to be a lousy company to work for.

I'd advise using more than this article to base your opinion on. It's of-course hard to tell if you aren't directly there, but from all appearances Apple is an insanely great company with insanely great jobs. (emphasis between insane and great may fluctuate at times)

Check out what glassdoor is saying ...
http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Apple-RVW4870579.htm

31   elliemae   2014 Oct 1, 4:24am  

Rew says

Ellie, from what little I see of your communication here on p net, I believe you are a very sharp and dedicated person. Try not to despair and I bet you can find something ... anything ... and one thing will lead to another.

I do enjoy what I do and take great pride in it. I do sell a few books to supplement my income. A friend and I were lamenting about this subject, as we worked together 20 years ago at a shitty public agency that paid well but treated its workers like shit. If we had stayed there for 20 years, we would have retirement and longevity, as well as drug & alcohol problems (I'm sure). I don't regret that I left, just regret that there is little to no job security in my field and that companies prize the managers while the workers worry about making ends meet.

I work with people who are in support positions and make hardly above minimum wage. Just having to deal with 20 practitioners should award them combat pay.

I find it ironic that people who actually help people, work in caregiving jobs (social work, medical support, teachers) don't make a whole lot, while people in other jobs rake in the bucks.

32   MAGA   2014 Oct 1, 4:27am  

If I'm expected to respond to 1 am emails, then I expect a salary well into the six-figure range. Otherwise forget it. I have other gigs that I can work at.

33   Tenpoundbass   2014 Oct 1, 4:28am  

My coding thought process is called "Leaving a hole".

I leave holes in my design process, that accommodates appending more complex objects, or drastic changes to my existing objects. But my design process starts out with a foundation on which everything else is built on.
That foundation is unique to the business model I'm creating software for.
Once I have the foundation in place. Adding and removing things becomes quite trivial. I can drop in whole sections, and add children and grandchildren in just the time from a 12pm meeting to the next day's follow up meeting.

The IT department's of the Companies that I'm a vendor for, HATE me.
My code is ten times more eloquent, faster and bug free than their projects. I deliver projects that would take a team of 4 more than a year to complete in a corporate environment, I can deliver those projects in under 3 months by my self.

Do you know why Indians are so great at programming?
Because they make the development tools work for them instead of the otherway around. American development culture is one built to cover an inept culture of IT executive's asses, at the expense of otherwise capable developers.

34   Peter P   2014 Oct 1, 4:29am  

Rew says

It's of-course hard to tell if you aren't directly there, but from all appearances Apple is an insanely great company with insanely great jobs.

Judging from the sheer number of people who call the iPhone an "insanely great" phone I wonder if working at Apple triggers the same emotion as like owning an iPhone...

35   HydroCabron   2014 Oct 1, 4:39am  

CaptainShuddup says

Now how well it still fist your business process is to be determined

Fisting?

What industry do you work for?

36   Peter P   2014 Oct 1, 4:43am  

CaptainShuddup says

Do you know why Indians are so great at programming?

Because they make the development tools work for them instead of the otherway around. American development culture is one built to cover an inept culture of IT executive's asses, at the expense of otherwise capable developers.

I found Indians who have adopted the American culture to be some of the best programmers. Indians in India, or most foreign programmers in their native countries, are not so great.

Software is a highly cultural activity and I think we still have an edge.

The very role of IT executives is to be a scapegoat for failed projects anyway. No wonder they cover their asses faster than Google can display your search result.

It is better to work as a software developer for a software company. Software needs to be their core competence.

37   Rin   2014 Oct 1, 4:44am  

CaptainShuddup says

inept culture of IT executive's asses

Actually, you can add most of the MBA-ologists of corporate America to that category.

jvolstad says

If I'm expected to respond to 1 am emails, then I expect a salary well into the six-figure range. Otherwise forget it. I have other gigs that I can work at.

I concur, which is why I'll field calls from Singapore, since they're 12 hours apart, in an effort to attract more business.

38   Peter P   2014 Oct 1, 4:47am  

Rin says

Actually, you can add most of the MBA-ologists of corporate America to that category.

MBA is really a country club.

39   Blurtman   2014 Oct 1, 4:51am  

Rin says

o here's my question ... if one didn't grow up in the SFBA, why would they want to study STEM and work for Apple? For one, you'll relocate into an area with no friends, no time to make any (a.k.a zero social life), a regular six figure income but much of it, spent on high rent and living expenses.

Hookers and blow. It can sustain for a while but a crash is inevitable. And then you are an Apple employee in rehab and as long as you respect your colleagues' and bosses' expectations that you be discrete, it's party on, Garth. Oh Molly? Molly?

40   Rin   2014 Oct 1, 4:56am  

Blurtman says

Hookers and blow.

I've seen plenty of esc*rts up in Montreal, where it's legal, and I've never ingested more than a couple of Martinis, doing that.

The problem is that the SFBA is one dimensional and hookers/blow or in the dead Google's exec's case, shooting smack, are like the show, "Californication", where there's no balance in life, extremes (esp illegal activities) are the only measure.

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