patrick.net

Wanted my son into the prog but he was a naturalized citizen and not eligible. Living aboard a submarine would give me the willies but my dad did it in WWII.

There are jobs out there but you gotta make sacrifices. And maybe not alot of them but my son, now a mining engineer in a coal mine on the Navaho res. in Kenyatta AZ tells me there are good paying jobs driving coal trucks at the power plant but you gotta live Page and it is desolate.

I did what I had to do to get thru it all and the lifestyle I led cost me two good wives. It is not easy out there now but times weren't great for me in my profession either.

But then again, my mom growing up in the depression had it much worse.

Oilwelldoctor, the point is not finding jobs in industry. Sure, after retirement, many ppl do that, but the issue is that industry is orthogonal to the STEM credo, which is about problem solving, from a science/engineering perspective, not in making some executive rich.

As for your son, one doesn't need to be be natural born American, to be in the armed forces, that's mainly for the Presidency. Perhaps, it's the residency requirement, being in the US, which got in his way?

My main point, about the Navy Nukes, is that it's only true STEM path, left for Americans. Sure, STEM ppl can apply for medical school, work in finance, patent law, etc, but we all know that those subsequent fields have nothing to do with STEM.

Rin says

In reality, though these are intelligent men, they made money in the areas known as the monied professions, not science and engineering.

But what is more important, perception or reality? Even Steve Jobs was known for his Reality Distortion Field.

Peter P says

Rin says

In reality, though these are intelligent men, they made money in the areas known as the monied professions, not science and engineering.

But what is more important, perception or reality? Even Steve Jobs was known for his Reality Distortion Field.

The point is that in reality, we have an entire cadre of universities, corporations, and govt think tanks telling everyone that there's a shortage of STEM graduates when we have countless ppl in postdocs or adjunct professorships.

Steve Jobs was a businessman. There's nothing wrong there, provided that we call it that ... Job's business was Apple Computer and its product lines.

On the other foot, when we claim STEM shortage, what it does is allow those MBA types, to increase H1-Bs, offshore work, etc, w/o any correlation to reality.

In the Navy Nuclear program, everyone there is a US citizen, natural (or naturalized as a kid). Thus, it's impossible to send that work abroad w/o a national security risk.

Rin says

You're in charge of the specifics of the nuclear power on carriers or submarines, and you get a ton of responsibilities and the ability to learn on the job.

Uh oh ...... I'm not really sure I like the concept of learning on the job when the job is to keep a nuclear power plant running safely...

justme says

Rin says

You're in charge of the specifics of the nuclear power on carriers or submarines, and you get a ton of responsibilities and the ability to learn on the job.

Uh oh ...... I'm not really sure I like the concept of learning on the job when the job is to keep a nuclear power plant running safely...

There's a lot of training, called the Power School, before that happens ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Power_School

Rin says

Being a Navy Nuke is the only place where your know-how in chemistry, math, physics, electronics, etc, is appreciated by your higher ups.

My BiL was a nuke on Los Angeles subs.

After Navy he went to work for Coke. Busted his hump, never complained, gladly took over other people's work when they were out.

Recently as his mother was dying, the Manager-of-the-Month started giving him flack. Sure we've been giving you more territory and work, so what? Not productive enough, you are spending too much time off your sick mom. He didn't file FMLA despite advice about it, because he didn't want to appear like a troublemaker. Just do your best to look after the company, and they will look after you right?

Then she died, and shortly after the funeral they laid him off. Now at 50+ he's unemployed, with health issues and bills and oh yeah finishing up the estate of his Mom.

So this notion that being a Nuke with all sorts of skills and demonstrated work ethic, will get you respect in the Corporate States of America? That's HOGWASH! They don't care about that stuff, they will put you on the ice the second the MBA jerk says it's time to dump senior staff and bring in "fresh blood".

Being a nuke is great when you are 20. Do you still want to be doing that at 35? Generally speaking the answer is no if you want a family life.

Vicente says

Then she died, and shortly after the funeral they laid him off. Now at 50+ he's unemployed, with health issues and bills and oh yeah finishing up the estate of his Mom.

So this notion that being a Nuke with all sorts of skills and demonstrated work ethic, will get you respect in the Corporate States of America? That's HOGWASH! They don't care about that stuff, they will put you on the ice the second the MBA jerk says it's time to dump senior staff and bring in "fresh blood".

That's my whole point ... the purpose of being a Nuke is to have a career in the armed services and earn your military pension at your 20th year.

It has nothing to do with your subsequent role with corporate America later.

The only place which really values you, is the Navy. The rest of the world couldn't give a damn about experience and know-how.

Rin says

The only place which really values you, is the Navy. The rest of the world couldn't give a damn about experience and know-how.

For the record, let me repeat ... Corporate America sucks! Corporate America sucks!

Rin says

That's my whole point ... the purpose of being a Nuke is to have a career in the armed services and earn your military pension at your 20th year.

I don't think very many submariners make it that far. Spending about half your life in a metal tube sounds exciting at 20. Doesn't sound so exciting at 35, more like prison. The quality of life really isn't that great beyond the challenges of the work itself.

I have a friend who worked at NASA on a number of interplanetary probes. He really loved his work, but being bounced around after every project ended and living like a graduate student, got old and he had to leave.

Vicente says

I have a friend who worked at NASA on a number of interplanetary probes. He really loved his work, but being bounced around after every project ended and living like a graduate student, got old and he had to leave.

NASA is garbage. There's nothing about it, which is different from being a postdoc in academia.

At least as a Navy Nuke, starting as an officer, which is what my friends did, they have had numerous roles in the navy. In the end, if they get a couple of promotions, they can get their full pension in 20 years. Afterwards, they can stick around as consultants to the Navy, DoD, or some other consulting tasks for the energy industries.

The real decision, however, is deciding if being in the armed forces, is one's true path in life. If not, then apply for medical school, patent law, or finance.

Rin says

In the end, if they get a couple of promotions, they can get their full pension in 20 years. Afterwards, they can stick around as consultants to the Navy, DoD, or some other consulting tasks for the energy industries.

The real decision, however, is deciding if being in the armed forces, is one's true path in life.

FYI, I'm still in contact with two of those Navy Nukes. Both are officers and waiting for their natural retirement age from the Navy. The pension is half-pay for life, which is some $40K-$45K/yr, nice deal, esp when one is 43-44 years of age.

They both know plenty of engineers in the private sector and neither are impressed with corporate America. Yes, getting screwed over by MBAs is often talked about.

One plans on teaching for the navy, the other, consulting for industry. In both cases, getting a full time job is not their priority, for all the reasons I'd stated.

Rin says

The pension is half-pay for life, which is some $40K-$45K/yr, nice deal, esp when one is 43-44 years of age.

Good thing they're not public employees, or this would be outrageous!

(The private sector can pay our military anything, and that's okay because it's their business.)

BenghazebolaHusseinCabronObama says

Rin says

The pension is half-pay for life, which is some $40K-$45K/yr, nice deal, esp when one is 43-44 years of age.

Good thing they're not public employees, or this would be outrageous!

(The private sector can pay our military anything, and that's okay because it's their business.)

In this particular situation, the Navy Nukes, we're actually talking about smart STEM ppl, who'd worked like hell for their accolades. In contrast, I did nothing quite so difficult in my entire life but right now, I earn a higher salary because of the nature of financial careers.

If they can survive, as officers, then it's a well deserved retirement and at the same time, they have lifelong friends and connections with the armed forces. In contrast, many public employees are lazy clock punchers, who don't live up to any standards of excellence. As a naval officer, if you screw up as a nuke, your career is over.

A friends son was recently accepted to the navy nuke program. From what I understand the washout rate is very high.

We'll see how it works out. He's shooting for an aircraft carrier rather than a sub.

New Renter says

From what I understand the washout rate is very high.

Yes, it's a very high pressure training environment. The ppl I knew in the program were clearly more motivated to study engineering than I was, back in those days. They truly deserve that 20 year mark pension program for their hard work.

New Renter says

We'll see how it works out. He's shooting for an aircraft carrier rather than a sub.

If he only does the 6 year requirement and leaves for corporate America, then it wasn't really worth all that much. Of course, I'm pretty sure that any machinist or wiring training he may gain, could later translate into a successful trade, if he chooses to be blue collar and independent.

On the other hand, if he makes the navy his *new family*, then it's a different story. Ppl form close bonds which one can't do in corporate America and as a Navy Nuke, despite the fact that there's a bit of pigeonholing there, chances for promotion as an officer, are pretty descent. The glass ceiling, however, is Lt-Commander but that's fine as there's nothing wrong, retiring as one.

Rin says

If he only does the 6 year requirement and leaves for corporate America, then it wasn't really worth all that much. Of course, I'm pretty sure that any machinist or wiring training he may gain, could later translate into a successful trade, if he chooses to be blue collar and independent.

Well he's spent the summer as a construction worker, so blue collar isn't beneath him. He's a good kid with a decent head on his shoulders so I have high hopes.

His brother OTOH has enrolled in bible collage. Unless he's shooting for the Oral Robers/Jimmy Swaggart/Jim Baker route or planning to starting new cult I'm not sure what kind of doors such an education can offer.

Rin says

On the other hand, if he makes the navy his *new family*, then it's a different story. Ppl form close bonds which one can't do in corporate America and as a Navy Nuke, despite the fact that there's a bit of pigeonholing there, chances for promotion as an officer, are pretty descent. The glass ceiling, however, is Lt-Commander but that's fine as there's nothing wrong, retiring as one.

I was raised in the navy and some of what you say has validity, but some is just hogwash.

As a navy nuc you would suffer from long seperatiions from family. Divorce rate is very high. Nuc subs are 90 day rotations, aircraft carriers 6 months but that's been stretched to 9 lately. Going 6 months without pussy or booze isn't that much fun. Not to mention moving every 2-3 years to a new duty station.

Pay is low. O-1's are 36k, O-4 (lt commander) is 48k. It jumps with time. The top end for 0-4 is 84k with 20 years in. Retiring with 50% of base is very nice, but you have to live very frugally for a long time. Nucs do get more pay, but it' still way less than civilian.

The program has always been (and according to the navy;s website still is) intensly competitive. If you don't have top grades at a very good school you won't even be considered. Courses at a community college with a GED isn't going to cut it.

Retire as an o-4? Very unlikely unless you are a mustang. Navy is up or out. If you don't make your promotions then you are out.

According to the navy website there are 380 navy nucs. That's not a really big number of openings.

There is something wrong about leading your entire life targeting the way you will retire.

bob2356 says

Retire as an o-4? Very unlikely unless you are a mustang. Navy is up or out. If you don't make your promotions then you are out.

Yes, I was told this.

bob2356 says

As a navy nuc you would suffer from long seperatiions from family. Divorce rate is very high. Nuc subs are 90 day rotations, aircraft carriers 6 months but that's been stretched to 9 lately. Going 6 months without pussy or booze isn't that much fun. Not to mention moving every 2-3 years to a new duty station.

That's why I said that one needs to make the navy, one's family. Both of my friends are single and in their mid-30s.

bob2356 says

If you don't have top grades at a very good school you won't even be considered.

A state university also counts and many of them, have continuing ed programs where a kid can get a college degree.

Yes, he needs to get A's, both my friends had 3.8s in engineering.

A have a Nephew doing this right now. It's not my bag, I felt heavy for him when he signed up. He's on a sub for months and months at a time. I've seen him twice in 4 years. He absolutely loves it. Although he went for the education, he might make a career out of it.

My father was a Merchant Marine, he tried to get me to go in when I turned 17.
I remember when I was young and he would go out to sea for 3 to 4 months at a time, be home for a few weeks or months and get right back out. To me it seemed no different than if I had a Dad that going in and out of jail for 3 or 4 month stints at a time. So I wanted no part of the sequestered sea.

I love Leisure boating, but I would only go on a boat skippered by someone. that I could say... "Look goddamn it, I need to get back now!" and not get my ass legally kicked and arrested.

Heraclitusstudent says

There is something wrong about leading your entire life targeting the way you will retire.

Here's the point ... let's say you get a BS in engineering, give your life to let's say Dow Chemical and 15 years later, your job is in Asia. Then, you find yourself competing against younger kids for similar lower level support tasks. You see, that's STEM work in America.

On the other hand, if you're are a Navy personality and can forge bonds with fellow enlisted and officers, then you can apply the same dedication to being a Navy Nuke, get promoted, and have a retirement package.

CaptainShuddup says

He absolutely loves it. Although he went for the education, he might make a career out of it.

The point is that he's a true STEM person. Corporate America is no longer a place for such an individual.

What is the navy pension? Compounding all the earnings from 18-22 would probably achieve the same goal.

billyjoe says

Compounding all the earnings from 18-22 would probably achieve the same goal.

Well, someone could probably work in sales or accounting, and eventually, have their own eggs nest, with a fraction of the work as a Navy Nuke. I'm in sales and can tell you that my meaningless work has clearly paid off. Am I proud of what I do? ... nope.

The issue was more ... what's a meaningful STEM career, working for corporate America and being taken for a ride, or actually preforming real STEM tasks for the Navy and being appreciated for one's contributions?

Rin says

Here's the point ... let's say you get a BS in engineering, give your life to let's say Dow Chemical and 15 years later, your job is in Asia. Then, you find yourself competing against younger kids for similar lower level support tasks. You see, that's STEM work in America.

On the other hand, if you're are a Navy personality and can forge bonds with fellow enlisted and officers, then you can apply the same dedication to being a Navy Nuke, get promoted, and have a retirement package.

You may want to take into account the living conditions of Navy nukes as a large percentage are on subs. I almost went into the program out of school until they few us out to San Diego and showed us what life was like on a sub. I fully respect anyone who does it--but it's certainly not for everyone.

tatupu70 says

You may want to take into account the living conditions of Navy nukes as a large percentage are on subs. I almost went into the program out of school until they few us out to San Diego and showed us what life was like on a sub. I fully respect anyone who does it--but it's certainly not for everyone.

Yes, this is why I didn't apply either.

At the same time, I'd thought my calling was for industrial R&D. Little did I realize that corporate America stopped caring about R&D, ages ago.

Thus, my friends who're Navy Nukes have different career outlooks. Both of them are content with their career success, contributions, and affiliation with the navy, whereas for me, I only look at the dollars and cents part of my career.

Hi Rin, a good discussion. Never realized, well... so many with various backgrounds on this blog. Yes, you are right he could go into the Navy, just not the nuke prog. Just as well, he is doing fine where he is; living in Flagstaff and being flown to work on the res each day.

I live in Olongapo City Philippines and occasionally a USS will come into the old Subic Navy port. Sailors I talk to say the Navy doesn't want them for more than about 12 years. Too bad, used to be a good career. Just the medical bennes would make it worthwhile now.

Seems to me you reach a point in engineering where you gotta go the management path to stay afloat in your profession. It sucks, but generally speaking, younger engineers are frankly more ambitious, energetic, and of course cheaper than the experienced 40 or 50 somethings.

I remember entry level engineers with Texaco making more money than I was. Simple fact was, Texaco knew the job market was tough and I wasn't likely to leave the nest.

BTW, a Marine off the USS Peleau just killed a local "bacla" here. Apparently a homosexual encounter gone bad. So it goes.

But don't you think job security is overrated?

Peter P says

But don't you think job security is overrated?

Sure if you like working for the Dread Pirate Roberts:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/aHZGqBVBCRw&t

Good night Wesley (your name here)

Good work

Sleep well

I'll likely as not kill fire you in the morning.

New Renter says

Sure if you like working for the Dread Pirate Roberts:

BTW, Rodents of Unusual Size do exists.

Here's South America's Capybara ...

Rin says

New Renter says

Sure if you like working for the Dread Pirate Roberts:

BTW, Rodents of Unusual Size do exists.

Here's South America's Capybara ...

I hear they are quite tasty to some:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/21/world/americas/21rodent.html?_r=0

Oilwelldoctor says

Seems to me you reach a point in engineering where you gotta go the management path to stay afloat in your profession.

I'm completely out of STEM these days and into the world of finance, which was an eye opener for a person who used to believe in the value of one's work. The number of idiotic portfolio managers and tax consultants, earning north of $300K for dubious "value added" work, is astounding.

Peter P says

But don't you think job security is overrated?

Since there is no more job security in corporate America, it's overrated because it doesn't exist. Today, very few ppl will work under a misc R&D cost center at a Honeywell Corp, for fear of being let go, in a future layoff round. Instead, most STEM workers will be tied to a client or to a product release process, each of whom lying about projected man hours, to receive funding. The end result is that ppl become more like automatrons, than thinkers and creative problem solvers.