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Freedom to Offend

By Patrick following x   2015 Feb 9, 7:43am 372,911 views   486 comments   watch   nsfw   quote     share    


Patrick.net is a mostly-unmoderated anonymous forum where the fundamental human right to offend is protected. Freedom of speech is nothing but the freedom to offend. Speech which offends no one needs no protection, but controversial ideas are inevitably offensive to someone and therefore need protection from censorship.

As MisterLearnToCode says:
We can't ban offensive speech because then we'd be at the mercy of the most easily offended; the lowest common denominator, and wouldn't be able to discuss jack shit.

I especially want to people to have a place to say things they cannot say in person because of family or work or school pressure to conform to the politically correct opinions in their area.

If you are expressing a sincerely held point of view with good will, your comments and posts are very welcome here. If your point of view is "offensive" to others, that is excellent! Enjoy your freedom here. Please try to keep it about ideas and not about people.

Do not attack other users or the site itself. Personal attacks solve nothing. The merit of a person is not important, only the merit of ideas. As a helpful reminder when you might be veering into a personal attack, the use of the worlds you and your are highlighted in red. If you don't like the site, go somewhere else. This site cost you nothing, was a lot of work for me, and doesn't even have advertising.

I often get requests to block "bad" people from the site, but don't believe that anyone is entirely bad or entirely good, only that the amount of each fluctuates over time.

If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago 1918–1956

Flag personal attacks with the "flag" link by each comment so that they will go into moderation where they will be reviewed by a moderator. Please do not flag comments just because you don't like them.

If you're not registered or don't have the "flag" link, please report personal comments to p@patrick.net by email.


Here are the original articles that made this site famous:

https://patrick.net/post/1282720/2015-07-11-ten-reasons-it-s-a-terrible-time-to-buy-an-expensive-house
https://patrick.net/post/1282721/2015-07-11-eight-groups-who-lie-about-the-housing-market
https://patrick.net/post/1282722/2015-07-11-37-bogus-arguments-about-housing

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227   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Apr 26, 2:48pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

@TwoScoopsPlissken was the comment more than a week old?

After a week, a comment can't be deleted, except by me. It can still be marked "personal" and go into the moderation queue though.

I deleted one today from the moderation queue, but can't remember how old it was.
228   MisterLearnToCode   ignore (4)   2018 Apr 26, 4:25pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Hi Pat, not sure. It had a dislike already, didn't check the date. It could have been older.
229   MisterLearnToCode   ignore (4)   2018 Apr 27, 11:44am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Approved Sniper's remarks about Wookie, don't know if it's really "personal" and Wookie said he doesn't particularly care and it seems to be a group thing about milenials vs. a insults at a user.

I'm biased towards approval absent "Go Fuck Yourself, you sniveling shitbag."

So approved, but not 100% sure this is the kind of Convo Pat.net wants/doesn't want since it is about user history and whatnot. Happy to reconsider.
230   MisterLearnToCode   ignore (4)   2018 Apr 27, 11:46am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Okay, so posts along this line are getting thrown to moderation. I leave it in moderation for others to take a look.
231   CBOEtrader   ignore (5)   2018 Apr 27, 11:48am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

yeah, its a childish conversation. even if those two want to have that convo, i'd lean towards deleting it anyways... just to keep the forum focused on actual discussions. dont want this place slipping back into the realm of personal flame wars.
232   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Apr 27, 12:45pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

TwoScoopsPlissken says
I'm biased towards approval absent "Go Fuck Yourself, you sniveling shitbag."


I'm the same way. As long as it's not directly and obviously personal, I let it go through.
233   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Apr 27, 12:49pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
yeah, its a childish conversation. even if those two want to have that convo, i'd lean towards deleting it anyways... just to keep the forum focused on actual discussions. dont want this place slipping back into the realm of personal flame wars.


I really don't want flame wars. I'm definitely still on the pendulum swing away from "anything goes" towards quickly deleting anything that sounds like a personal attack on other users.
234   MisterLearnToCode   ignore (4)   2018 May 14, 3:52pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

One Edvard comment approved, the other left in moderation for "Shut Up" even though the rest isn't personal.
235   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 3, 10:39am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
I really don't want flame wars. I'm definitely still on the pendulum swing away from "anything goes" towards quickly deleting anything that sounds like a personal attack on other users.


@Patrick--

If you really applied this standard without bias, it would be great. As it is now, it is ridiculous. I challenge you to look at curious2's posts over the past 3 days and tell me how his remain but mine are deleted and I somehow end up in moderation. This website is a joke.
236   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2018 Jun 3, 11:46am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
If you really applied this standard without bias, it would be great. As it is now, it is ridiculous. I challenge you to look at curious2's posts over the past 3 days and tell me how his remain but mine are deleted and I somehow end up in moderation. This website is a joke.


There are no standards anymore, either you're part of the "club", or your not.

I'm in post moderation for doing NOTHING wrong, and no posts deleted, yet past posters (who were deleted) are back under new names attacking other uses with freedom.

Amazing
237   curious2   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 3, 12:41pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
I challenge you to look at curious2's posts over the past 3 days and tell me how his remain but mine are deleted and I somehow end up in moderation.


Your comments do remain, including this one:

LeonDurham says
as expected. Run away little man.


If some of your comments are not appearing, you might have blocked scripting or something, but it has nothing to do with me. I have never flagged any of your comments as personal, even though some are, clearly. I had simply stopped responding to you, and you responded to that by taunting me (see above). Now you seem to pursue the matter in other threads. Again, it has nothing to do with me, so I would prefer that you (including your aliases joeyjoejoejr and tatupu70 among others) leave me out of it.
238   Onvacation   ignore (3)   2018 Jun 10, 8:50am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
This website is a joke.

Patrick LET you say that.

Argue the topic instead of attacking the person and your posts should be fine.
239   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 10, 9:12am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

curious2 says

Your comments do remain, including this one:




Nope. Not the ones I was referring to--those are still gone.

curious2 says
If some of your comments are not appearing, you might have blocked scripting or something, but it has nothing to do with me. I have never flagged any of your comments as personal, even though some are, clearly. I had simply stopped responding to you, and you responded to that by taunting me (see above). Now you seem to pursue the matter in other threads. Again, it has nothing to do with me, so I would prefer that you (including your aliases joeyjoejoejr and tatupu70 among others) leave me out of it.


The comments were deleted by one of the moderators. It's not a mystery what happened.

How about this--when you start leaving Marcus out of every comment in every thread you post, then I promise to not ever mention your pseudonym.
240   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 10, 9:13am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Onvacation says
Patrick LET you say that.

Argue the topic instead of attacking the person and your posts should be fine.


Patrick isn't the problem--he doesn't delete for the most part. It's his choice for moderation that is the problem.

If all posts were treated equally and all personal attacks were deleted, then I would be ecstatic.
241   RafiMaas   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 10, 11:11am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Sniper says

I'm in post moderation for doing NOTHING wrong, and no posts deleted


I, personally, had to mark a post of yours personal 3 times before it finally got deleted!

A reference to someone needing glasses was made. A clear and obvious personal attack. "NOTHING wrong"? You do realize quoting a user then saying someone needs glasses is a personal attack, right?

But what does it say when someone has to mark a post personal, that is personal, 3 times before it doesn't come back? Maybe there should be checks and balances on other users not just the lower level users?
242   Onvacation   ignore (3)   2018 Jun 10, 12:27pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
If all posts were treated equally and all personal attacks were deleted, then I would be ecstatic.

I liked this part of your post.

Trolls and sockpuppets are ubiquitous on the internet. not allowing personal attacks denies them one of their biggest weapons. They still have the strawman, mock outrage, denial of facts, and charts.
243   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 10, 12:30pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Onvacation says

Trolls and sockpuppets are ubiquitous on the internet. not allowing personal attacks denies them one of their biggest weapons. They still have the strawman, mock outrage, denial of facts, and charts.


I know--if Patrick could ban strawman arguments, then we'd really have something.
244   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Jun 10, 1:32pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

RafiMaas says
I, personally, had to mark a post of yours personal 3 times before it finally got deleted!


There are 5 moderators plus myself, and they probably all interpret things a big differently.

I'd agree that saying someone needs glasses is personal, and not about the point being argued.
245   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2018 Jun 22, 8:53pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

@Patrick

My posts are not showing up, why?
246   Ceffer   ignore (1)   2018 Jun 22, 11:47pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Golly, what a lot of work keeping people from ad hominem attacks on each other.
247   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2018 Jun 23, 7:50am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Sniper says
@Patrick

My posts are not showing up, why?


@Patrick, still not showing up, is it a glitch in the software?
248   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Jun 23, 10:50am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

By "posts", do you mean comments? Clearly those are showing up fine.

I don't think new threads are treated any differently than comments.

I will try to log in as you and create a new thread...
249   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Jun 23, 10:55am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Ah, it was an auto-downgrade thing where there were enough comments marked personal to limit your privileges.

I undid that, now you should be the same as before.
250   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2018 Jun 23, 2:12pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
Ah, it was an auto-downgrade thing where there were enough comments marked personal to limit your privileges.


I thought that might have been it, but when I went back and looked, I didn't see any past comments of mine deleted.

Who was marking them personal?
251   RafiMaas   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 23, 9:52pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Sniper says
Who was marking them personal?


Apparently it was somebody who noticed that you made yet another personal comment. A good way to avoid this is to not make personal comments. It is quite easy.
252   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Jul 9, 11:50am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

@Patrick

Hey Patrick, does the "ignore" feature allow posters to disappear from mod view?
253   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Jul 9, 4:13pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

@Goran_K no, moderators should see all comments in moderation.
254   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Jul 10, 11:10am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
@Goran_K no, moderators should see all comments in moderation.


@Patrick

I think that's okay but for some reason I'm not able to see the comments of "Aphroman" as I think he put me on ignore after I warned him for a few of his "personal attacks", now he's skating under the radar so-to-speak.
255   CBOEtrader   ignore (5)   2018 Jul 10, 11:30am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says
I'm not able to see the comments of "Aphroman" as I think he put me on ignore


can we please eliminate this functionality? noone should be able to edit YOUR pat.net experience. If someone wants to mute their own experience, thats completely different. However, muting someone else's ability to view pat/net posts will destroy users ability to follow conversations and drive them from the site. We are down to a core 50... you dont want 25 of those 50 never seeing what the other 25 are discussing, unless you dont want discussions.
256   CBOEtrader   ignore (5)   2018 Jul 10, 12:21pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Aphroman says
why the fuck bother having mods


because ad hom's are childish and chase away anyone of value. Iwog set a terrible precedent, and frankly I didnt come around this place for years because I was sick of that type of personal flame bullshit.

Aphroman says
bitter Trumpublicans


Trump supporters are winning, thats the opposite of bitter.Aphroman says
run off most all opposing viewpoints


I for one welcome opposing viewpoints. Haven't heard anyone make a decent opposing argument in a while though. Its all "fuck trump" or "republicans are KKK" or "white men are nazis". yeah, people with that level of arguments should be chased off
257   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Jul 10, 12:40pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
I for one welcome opposing viewpoints. Haven't heard anyone make a decent opposing argument in a while though. Its all "fuck trump" or "republicans are KKK" or "white men are nazis". yeah, people with that level of arguments should be chased off


It's really too bad we can't eliminate strawman arguments. They are much worse than name calling, IMO. The above is a great example.

I'd be surprised if CBOE could provide more than a couple examples (if any), yet he feels fine saying that's "all" the arguments because he knows strawman arguments are A-OK at pat.net.
258   CBOEtrader   ignore (5)   2018 Jul 10, 12:44pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

removed leon's comment as a personal distraction from this discussion. to leon, id be happy to have that discussion, but start a different thread. this one isnt for flame wars, its for improving pat.net
259   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Jul 10, 12:52pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
removed leon's comment as a personal distraction from this discussion. to leon, id be happy to have that discussion, but start a different thread. this one isnt for flame wars, its for improving pat.net


lol--suggesting that pat.net needs to remove strawman arguments isn't improving pat.net?
260   CBOEtrader   ignore (5)   2018 Jul 10, 12:56pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Aphroman says
The rules here are pointless because they are not applied equally.


show us an example. I see you flame ad homs, then get mad when non ad homs are allowed to stay. your "this isnt fair" routine is getting tedious.
261   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Jul 10, 12:57pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
show us an example. I see you flame ad homs, then get mad when non ad homs are allowed to stay. your "this isnt fair" routine is getting tedious.


I can't remember when it was, but I posted about 20 ad homs from one of the posters that were never zapped. This poster never got a warning from Goran or anyone. Not quite as many, but I reposted a handful of ad homs from one of the mods as well.

Aphro is 100% correct. It's simple bias that clouds the mods here.
262   Goran_K   ignore (1)   2018 Jul 11, 8:45am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
can we please eliminate this functionality? noone should be able to edit YOUR pat.net experience. If someone wants to mute their own experience, thats completely different. However, muting someone else's ability to view pat/net posts will destroy users ability to follow conversations and drive them from the site. We are down to a core 50... you dont want 25 of those 50 never seeing what the other 25 are discussing, unless you dont want discussions.


@Patrick, I agree. Aphroman blocking mods is him defacto circumventing the system to he can continue ad hom attacks on people.
263   Onvacation   ignore (3)   2018 Jul 11, 9:08am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Aphroman says
bitter Trumpublicans have run off most all opposing viewpoints

I think at least a few left because they could no longer belittle and abuse other posters.
264   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Jul 11, 9:23am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says
@Patrick, I agree. Aphroman blocking mods is him defacto circumventing the system to he can continue ad hom attacks on people.


Or maybe he got tired of reading all the strawman arguments from the mods.
265   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Jul 11, 9:23am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Onvacation says
I think at least a few left because they could no longer belittle and abuse other posters.



Yes, some people get pleasure out of that. Don't want them around.
266   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2018 Jul 11, 9:48am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Goran_K says
@Patrick, I agree. Aphroman blocking mods is him defacto circumventing the system to he can continue ad hom attacks on people.


Patrick says
Onvacation says
I think at least a few left because they could no longer belittle and abuse other posters.



Yes, some people get pleasure out of that. Don't want them around.


Yet, you allowed Aphroman sign on with a completely new screen name/profile (and deleted his old one, which led the pack with comments in Comment Jail), only so he could continue his ad hom attacks under this new profile?

What's up with that?

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