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Freedom to Offend

By Patrick following x   2015 Feb 9, 7:43am 460,283 views   550 comments   watch   nsfw   quote     share    


Patrick.net is a mostly-unmoderated anonymous forum where the fundamental human right to offend is protected. Freedom of speech is nothing but the freedom to offend. Speech which offends no one needs no protection because it will not be censored. Controversial ideas are inevitably offensive to someone and therefore need protection from censorship.

As MisterLearnToCode says:
We can't ban offensive speech because then we'd be at the mercy of the most easily offended; the lowest common denominator, and wouldn't be able to discuss jack shit.

I especially want to people to have a place to say things they cannot say in person because of family or work or school pressure to conform to the politically correct opinions in their area.

If you are expressing a sincerely held point of view with good will, your comments and posts are very welcome here. If your point of view is "offensive" to others, that is excellent! Enjoy your freedom here. Please try to keep it about ideas and not about people.

Do not attack other users or the site itself. Personal attacks solve nothing. Examine what is said, not who speaks.

Try to acknowledge whatever truth there is in what the other persona is saying before attacking the flaws in the argument.

If you don't like the site, go somewhere else. This site cost you nothing, was a lot of work for me, and doesn't even have advertising.

I often get requests to block "bad" people from the site, but don't believe that anyone is entirely bad or entirely good, only that the amount of each fluctuates over time.

If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago 1918–1956

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Here are the original articles that made this site famous:

https://patrick.net/post/1282720/2015-07-11-ten-reasons-it-s-a-terrible-time-to-buy-an-expensive-house
https://patrick.net/post/1282721/2015-07-11-eight-groups-who-lie-about-the-housing-market
https://patrick.net/post/1282722/2015-07-11-37-bogus-arguments-about-housing

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201   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Mar 6, 1:50pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

That's not a problem unique to one side or the other

——————-

How long will America survive with people constantly critical of all things liberal, while excusing Republican bad actors by saying yea but dems do it too, regardless of if its even true?
202   HonkpilledMaster   ignore (5)   2018 Mar 6, 1:54pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

errc says
How long will America survive with people constantly critical of all things liberal, while excusing Republican bad actors by saying yea but dems do it too, regardless of if its even true?



Maybe try reforming the Democratic Party.

Start by replacing Pelosi and Corey Booker in their next primaries.
203   jazz_music   ignore (12)   2018 Mar 6, 1:56pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

rando says
The real problem is the lack of a labor party in the US. The Democrats used to approximate a labor party,

Agree. Our reality is that on one hand you have Democrats who make promises and betray you to get wealthy and special status for themselves and family.

On the other hand we have Republicans who PROMISE you betrayal as something that you must have in order to be truly free and prosperous.

One is simply more insulting than the other, and the more insulting one creates vast gains for more plutocrats, we become fair game for everything. The possibilities are wide open.

Truly it would be best to have real representation WITHOUT THE BETRAYAL be it either the broken promises type or the delusions of grandeur type.

To get anything at all, we are going to have to mobilize and have some negative effect on return on investments, be it either by boycotting, or finding an alternate way of life or etc., etc., etc.

Grim picture, I know, because we are all eating the poison apple to varying extents. No accident there. Reagan's masters sure knew what they were doing to us.

As usual, the young ones are our main hope, you know, the ones who are not deep into debt and worried about retiring yet.
204   jazz_music   ignore (12)   2018 Mar 6, 1:57pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

rando says
Democrats are more heavily funded by the rich

Could that be because they perceive a danger there if Democrats are left unchecked?
205   mell   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 6, 1:58pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

errc says
RafiMaas says
mell says
The FF were Christians, I doubt they would have voted for recreational drug use, even though they were big on personal liberty. It's about the context.


I can guarantee they wouldn't have voted for recreational drug use. Because they didn't have to, it was already legal. They believed in freedom, they grew marijuana and some probably even used it.


Thank you

It’s refreshing to see America isn’t dead yet


Except for that it's a myth, see the link above. Just because you and I want them to be as freedom loving and possible doesn't mean they were. What I was trying to illustrate is that they may have been closer to today's repubs/libertarians, without judgement.
206   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Mar 6, 2:00pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

mell says
RafiMaas says
mell says
The FF were Christians, I doubt they would have voted for recreational drug use, even though they were big on personal liberty. It's about the context.


I can guarantee they wouldn't have voted for recreational drug use. Because they didn't have to, it was already legal. They believed in freedom, they grew marijuana and some probably even used it.


https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/busting-some-myths-about-the-founding-fathers-and-marijuana/

Either way I wouldn't jump to conclusions here. In context many things back then were forbidden or problematic at least, that are viewed as ok today.


I read your silly link, but contrary to the title, they didn’t bust any myths wrt the FF and Hemp/Cannabis. So then why did you post it?

Jump to conclusions about what?
Care to elaborate on what you meant with the rest of your words? Intentionally vague, they hold no meaning. Explain please
207   mell   ignore (2)   2018 Mar 6, 3:06pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

errc says
mell says
RafiMaas says
mell says
The FF were Christians, I doubt they would have voted for recreational drug use, even though they were big on personal liberty. It's about the context.


I can guarantee they wouldn't have voted for recreational drug use. Because they didn't have to, it was already legal. They believed in freedom, they grew marijuana and some probably even used it.


https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/busting-some-myths-about-the-founding-fathers-and-marijuana/

Either way I wouldn't jump to conclusions here. In context many things back then were forbidden or problematic at least, that are viewed as ok tod...


It clearly refutes Rafis post that they were "using" MJ as in smoking it and that they would have voted for it. It was used for rope and they did not cultivate the high THC kind. I think you are focusing solely on MJ because it is the most important thing for you, but many are willing to trade in Republican shortcomings wrt MJ as long as they don't have to endure the leftist reign in other more important topics. Otherwise Hillary should have win with 90$% of the vote as most, left and right, these days do not care if you toke a little at your home.
208   jazz_music   ignore (12)   2018 Mar 6, 3:58pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

TwoScoopsPlissken says
Start by replacing Pelosi and Corey Booker

Wouldn't that just force Rush Limbaugh and his ilk to come up with new lies and accusations?

Is there ever going to be a DNC member that the right wing media would NOT criticize, demonize, humiliate, and rail against???

Come on now. Warren got into the limelight and then comes the Pocahontas cracks etc., etc., etc., but if only the democrats tried just a little bit harder to please you, eh?

You know damn well that anybody who gets into the public eye and is not far right wing is going to be a never-ending subject of ridicule and demonization.
209   HonkpilledMaster   ignore (5)   2018 Mar 6, 4:01pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

jazz_music says
Is there ever going to be a DNC member that the right wing media would NOT criticize, demonize, humiliate, and rail against???


So Rush is an excuse to tolerate putting up with Neoliberals in your party, because he might make fun of their replacements on the radio?
210   HonkpilledMaster   ignore (5)   2018 Mar 6, 4:02pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

jazz_music says
You know damn well that anybody who gets into the public eye and is not far right wing is going to be a never-ending subject of ridicule and demonization.


Yeah, Trump is just worshipped daily on Comedy Central, SNL, the View, Jimmy Kimmel, Rachel Maddow, Anderson180, etc.

hahahahahaha
211   missing   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 6, 4:04pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

mell says
Maybe partially true, but it works better than all other forms on this planet. Otherwise people wouldn't be crossing the border to live under this bad system.


This is such a poor logic. Embarrassing!
212   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 6, 4:05pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Why is that poor logic?
213   missing   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 6, 4:11pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Are you seriously asking me this?
214   anonymous   ignore (null)   2018 Mar 6, 4:13pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
Why is that poor logic?


Capitalism will never tolerate a representative government; its inefficient as a vehicle for greater profits.


Maybe partially true, but it works better than all other forms on this planet. Otherwise people wouldn't be crossing the border to live under this bad system.

—————————

Absent any logic
215   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 6, 4:13pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Seems like solid logic to me. If this were a worse system than, say, in Mexico, why have 20 million Mexicans come here illegally?
216   HonkpilledMaster   ignore (5)   2018 Mar 6, 4:15pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

People aren't flooding boats to get to Cuba, North Korea, or Bangladesh.
217   missing   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 6, 4:21pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Mexico also has capitalism.

I come from a capitalistic system, slightly different that the US version. I think as a whole, for the majority of the people, it is a better version. However, for me personally the US is better because it is a winner take all system. I can also always go back and maybe will.
218   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 6, 4:35pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

FP says
Mexico also has capitalism.


Clearly they're not doing it right. Maybe we aren't either, but we are definitely getting better results than Mexico does.
219   cynn   ignore (0)   2018 Mar 6, 4:48pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The Kochs just haven't figured out "cartels" yet.
220   missing   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 8, 1:46pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
Clearly they're not doing it right. Maybe we aren't either, but we are definitely getting better results than Mexico does.


This is beyond the point.
221   HonkpilledMaster   ignore (5)   2018 Mar 8, 2:08pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
Clearly they're not doing it right. Maybe we aren't either, but we are definitely getting better results than Mexico does.


Mexico spent most of the 19th Century in "Free Trade", shipping out raw materials while importing finished products.

Thus, they industrialized much more slowly and unevenly than tariff-protected America in the 19th Century under Hamilton's All-American Tariff.

It's much the same all over Central and South America. BIg Landed Wealth doesn't care about mass employment, they just want to trade the cotton and the aloe and the copper for a BMW, and make sure the landless workers don't get uppity when it comes to wages.

Defeating Big Confederate Landlords - who were as opposed to the Homestead Act as Tarriffs - they envisioned the midwest full of slaves on huge wheat farms - was a big leg up for American Prosperity.
222   HonkpilledMaster   ignore (5)   2018 Mar 23, 9:16am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Hi @Patrick - there's a T2 guy in the mod queue asking to be deleted, both comment and account.
223   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2018 Mar 23, 9:24am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

TwoScoopsPlissken says
Hi @Patrick - there's a T2 guy in the mod queue asking to be deleted, both comment and account.


I believe that's a brand new account of user: FP
224   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Mar 23, 9:48am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Deleted it. There was only one comment anyway.
225   HonkpilledMaster   ignore (5)   2018 Apr 12, 7:58am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Deleted two clear personal attacks from two users this AM. One about going to somebody having to go to GNC, the other about mental issues of a user.
226   HonkpilledMaster   ignore (5)   2018 Apr 26, 1:35pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

There's a pretty clear personal insult in my mod queue, but the delete button is gone.
227   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Apr 26, 2:48pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

@TwoScoopsPlissken was the comment more than a week old?

After a week, a comment can't be deleted, except by me. It can still be marked "personal" and go into the moderation queue though.

I deleted one today from the moderation queue, but can't remember how old it was.
228   HonkpilledMaster   ignore (5)   2018 Apr 26, 4:25pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Hi Pat, not sure. It had a dislike already, didn't check the date. It could have been older.
229   HonkpilledMaster   ignore (5)   2018 Apr 27, 11:44am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Approved Sniper's remarks about Wookie, don't know if it's really "personal" and Wookie said he doesn't particularly care and it seems to be a group thing about milenials vs. a insults at a user.

I'm biased towards approval absent "Go Fuck Yourself, you sniveling shitbag."

So approved, but not 100% sure this is the kind of Convo Pat.net wants/doesn't want since it is about user history and whatnot. Happy to reconsider.
230   HonkpilledMaster   ignore (5)   2018 Apr 27, 11:46am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Okay, so posts along this line are getting thrown to moderation. I leave it in moderation for others to take a look.
231   CBOEtrader   ignore (5)   2018 Apr 27, 11:48am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

yeah, its a childish conversation. even if those two want to have that convo, i'd lean towards deleting it anyways... just to keep the forum focused on actual discussions. dont want this place slipping back into the realm of personal flame wars.
232   Goran_K   ignore (3)   2018 Apr 27, 12:45pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

TwoScoopsPlissken says
I'm biased towards approval absent "Go Fuck Yourself, you sniveling shitbag."


I'm the same way. As long as it's not directly and obviously personal, I let it go through.
233   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Apr 27, 12:49pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
yeah, its a childish conversation. even if those two want to have that convo, i'd lean towards deleting it anyways... just to keep the forum focused on actual discussions. dont want this place slipping back into the realm of personal flame wars.


I really don't want flame wars. I'm definitely still on the pendulum swing away from "anything goes" towards quickly deleting anything that sounds like a personal attack on other users.
234   HonkpilledMaster   ignore (5)   2018 May 14, 3:52pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

One Edvard comment approved, the other left in moderation for "Shut Up" even though the rest isn't personal.
235   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 3, 10:39am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
I really don't want flame wars. I'm definitely still on the pendulum swing away from "anything goes" towards quickly deleting anything that sounds like a personal attack on other users.


@Patrick--

If you really applied this standard without bias, it would be great. As it is now, it is ridiculous. I challenge you to look at curious2's posts over the past 3 days and tell me how his remain but mine are deleted and I somehow end up in moderation. This website is a joke.
236   MrMagic   ignore (11)   2018 Jun 3, 11:46am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
If you really applied this standard without bias, it would be great. As it is now, it is ridiculous. I challenge you to look at curious2's posts over the past 3 days and tell me how his remain but mine are deleted and I somehow end up in moderation. This website is a joke.


There are no standards anymore, either you're part of the "club", or your not.

I'm in post moderation for doing NOTHING wrong, and no posts deleted, yet past posters (who were deleted) are back under new names attacking other uses with freedom.

Amazing
237   curious2   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 3, 12:41pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
I challenge you to look at curious2's posts over the past 3 days and tell me how his remain but mine are deleted and I somehow end up in moderation.


Your comments do remain, including this one:

LeonDurham says
as expected. Run away little man.


If some of your comments are not appearing, you might have blocked scripting or something, but it has nothing to do with me. I have never flagged any of your comments as personal, even though some are, clearly. I had simply stopped responding to you, and you responded to that by taunting me (see above). Now you seem to pursue the matter in other threads. Again, it has nothing to do with me, so I would prefer that you (including your aliases joeyjoejoejr and tatupu70 among others) leave me out of it.
238   Onvacation   ignore (4)   2018 Jun 10, 8:50am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

LeonDurham says
This website is a joke.

Patrick LET you say that.

Argue the topic instead of attacking the person and your posts should be fine.
239   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 10, 9:12am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

curious2 says

Your comments do remain, including this one:




Nope. Not the ones I was referring to--those are still gone.

curious2 says
If some of your comments are not appearing, you might have blocked scripting or something, but it has nothing to do with me. I have never flagged any of your comments as personal, even though some are, clearly. I had simply stopped responding to you, and you responded to that by taunting me (see above). Now you seem to pursue the matter in other threads. Again, it has nothing to do with me, so I would prefer that you (including your aliases joeyjoejoejr and tatupu70 among others) leave me out of it.


The comments were deleted by one of the moderators. It's not a mystery what happened.

How about this--when you start leaving Marcus out of every comment in every thread you post, then I promise to not ever mention your pseudonym.
240   LeonDurham   ignore (0)   2018 Jun 10, 9:13am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Onvacation says
Patrick LET you say that.

Argue the topic instead of attacking the person and your posts should be fine.


Patrick isn't the problem--he doesn't delete for the most part. It's his choice for moderation that is the problem.

If all posts were treated equally and all personal attacks were deleted, then I would be ecstatic.

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