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More STEM nonsense but in reverse


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2015 Mar 30, 5:55am   16,637 views  44 comments

by Rin   ➕follow (8)   💰tip   ignore  

http://tablet.washingtonpost.com/commentary/why-americas-obsession-with-stem-education-is-dangerous/2015/03/29/5f4604f2-d2a5-11e4-ab77-9646eea6a4c7_story.html

Excerpt: “Innovation is not simply a technical matter but rather one of understanding how people and societies work, what they need and want. America will not dominate the 21st century by making cheaper computer chips but instead by constantly reimagining how computers and other new technologies interact with human beings.”

Seriously folks, did ppl not take survey courses in history, political science, psychology, or sociology during HS or the 1st year or two in college? Is this argument basically that there are not enough intro to A, B, or C out there?

I don't think that a person, well versed in Ovid and Cicero, a.k.a attempting a BA in Latin/Classics, is going to turn our world upside down.

This is pure astroturfing nonsense. This is almost akin to the indirect proof in applied math where one posts a faux counterargument; he then knocks it down, and then, states that we need more STEM graduates.

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1   bob2356   2015 Mar 30, 6:11am  

Rin says

I don't think that a person, well versed in Ovid and Cicero, a.k.a attempting a BA in Latin/Classics, is going our world upside down.

No but someone who was a college dropout well versed in calligraphy sure did.

2   Rin   2015 Mar 30, 6:33am  

bob2356 says

No but someone who was a college dropout well versed in calligraphy sure did.

Yes, and thus, everyone needs to take calligraphy lessons, perhaps resulting in BA in Asian language studies.

This is exactly why these articles are utter nonsense.

3   Tenpoundbass   2015 Mar 30, 8:25am  

America doesn't have a stem problem we have a management problem.

Upper management doesn't like hiring people who know more than them in any given subject. So they hire clueless idiots to do the work, so they don't feel inferior and useless during scrum meetings.

4   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Mar 30, 10:01am  

America would be better off with people who read a wide variety of stories and legends and commanded one or two dead languages as proof of their tenacity and curiousity, than to spout MBA platitudes about Leverage and Thinking Outside Boxes.

5   Rin   2015 Mar 30, 10:09am  

thunderlips11 says

America would be better off with people who read a wide variety of stories and legends and commanded one or two dead languages as proof of their tenacity and curiousity, than to spout MBA platitudes about Leverage and Thinking Outside Boxes.

That's why we have high schools. And then, one can take electives in the classics, part-time, instead of a full degree.

This notion that now, we need liberal arts graduates, is building a straw man, for the sake of astroturfing for STEM majors again. It's just that the angle of approach is that of an indirect proof. The reality is that most ppl do not need a college degree for the work they do. The degree is an HR barrier of entry.

6   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Mar 30, 10:18am  

Rin says

This notion that now, we need liberal arts graduates, is building a straw man, for the sake of astroturfing for STEM majors again. It's just that the angle of approach is that of an indirect proof. The reality is that most ppl do not need a college degree for the work they do. The degree is an HR barrier of entry.

Fair enough, no disagreement here. We're at a point where they want Level One Customer Service Agents (Script Readers and Data Entry clerks) to have at least an associate's degree for their $9/hr job.

Given the hypothetical choice between a Classics BA and an MBA as a manager, I'd take the Horace Reader over the Stephen Covey quoter any day.

7   Dan8267   2015 Mar 30, 10:19am  

Excerpt: “Innovation is not simply a technical matter but rather one of understanding how people and societies work, what they need and want. America will not dominate the 21st century by making cheaper computer chips but instead by constantly reimagining how computers and other new technologies interact with human beings.”

Yes, this is utter bullshit. It comes from someone who has no understanding of science or technology and cannot hope to contribute in those fields. Since we are a society built on technology -- and there is absolutely no denying that at this point -- such people have to justify their jobs by saying "nerds aren't people persons and can't apply technology to society".

Well, let's go over history to evaluate how truthful that position is. Here are a list of things that we "nerds" did during the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. Let's count how many of them would consitute "understanding how people and society work and what they need and want".

1. Email
2. Instant messaging
3. Digital photography
4. Uploading and downloading content including all kinds of artistic content like music and videos
5. Sharing files (first on bulletin boards, then the Web)
6. Video conferencing (now called video Skying with family and friends)
7. Cyberspace Cafés and hangouts (now known as social media)
8. Online gaming
9. Hand-held computers (now called smartphones)

Fuck. Everything that nerds got picked on for doing during the 1970s to 1990s are "cool" and everyday experiences for everyone today. Sounds like nerds are the trend setters. We know what everyone is going to want to do decades before they do.

In fact, can anyone name one innovation that "non-nerds" enjoy today that nerds weren't enjoying years or decades before?

8   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Mar 30, 10:22am  

Dan8267 says

In fact, can anyone name one innovation that "non-nerds" enjoy today that nerds weren't enjoying years or decades before?

I can't. I was sexting with chicks on Prodigy, using Fast Hack'em to share Software, and playing my guitar through MIDI connections in the 80s and 90s.

9   Y   2015 Mar 30, 10:35am  

I was coping free titty feels playing missile command on my atari 800 with my gf....my hand would 'accidentally' slip off the joystick while laying down a right to left screenwide defensive burst protecting the eastern seaboard from russian sub nukes...
thunderlips11 says

I can't. I was sexting with chicks on Prodigy,

10   Rin   2015 Mar 30, 11:06am  

Dan8267 says

Yes, this is utter bullshit. It comes from someone who has no understanding of science or technology and cannot hope to contribute in those fields. Since we are a society built on technology -- and there is absolutely no denying that at this point -- such people have to justify their jobs by saying "nerds aren't people persons and can't apply technology to society".

Dan, this is actually the expected counterargument, that this type of article will attempt to evoke among the educational wonks. Then, the next step is to swing back to the STEM shortage myth. I've seen this volleyball game before.

You see, the problem is that we have an overly credentialed society. What really needs to happen is to admit the greatest truth of them all and that's that much of the work out there, doesn't require a university degree.

11   bob2356   2015 Mar 30, 11:57am  

Rin says

bob2356 says

No but someone who was a college dropout well versed in calligraphy sure did.

Yes, and thus, everyone needs to take calligraphy lessons, perhaps resulting in BA in Asian language studies.

This is exactly why these articles are utter nonsense.

Everyone needs to take calligraphy perhaps resulting in a BA in Asian langauge studies, what a bullshit response. Something I would expect from a pretty immature teenager, which based on many of your posts I suspect you might be. You are talking nonsense. The article never said or implied anything of the kind. Perhaps you only read the first paragraph.

Broadening your thought process as the article discusses is certainly desirable. Successful companies combine technical skills with non technical skills fluidly, even in silicon valley. Even medical schools, the last bastion of the pure science geek, are looking for people who are more well rounded these days.

I have a degree in liberal arts (theatre production) and years later a degree in computer science. The ability to apply liberal arts fundamentals of writing and communication in technical situations let me come out ahead on many occasions. I've seen some really horrendous writing from some really brilliant technical people. It's a career killer if you can't write and express your thoughts clearly in a corporate situation.

Dan8267 says

Yes, this is utter bullshit. It comes from someone who has no understanding of science or technology and cannot hope to contribute in those fields. Since we are a society built on technology -- and there is absolutely no denying that at this point -- such people have to justify their jobs by saying "nerds aren't people persons and can't apply technology to society".

Did you read the same article I did? We are not a society built on technology. We are a society built on using technology. For every coder or researcher there are many people using the technology in jobs that are far from technical. Even most tech companies need to create products with input from a broad range of people.

I'm guessing your massive inferiority complex and major defensive attitude was the result of being a very picked on nerd in the past.

12   Rin   2015 Mar 30, 12:13pm  

bob2356 says

Broadening your thought process as the article discusses is certainly desirable. Successful companies combine technical skills with non technical skills fluidly, even in silicon valley. Even medical schools, the last bastion of the pure science geek, are looking for people who are more well rounded these days.

Hello ... I'm in sales and I know this. And medical schools like ppl who write for their school papers, play sports, etc. Those are extracurricular activities which are not the same as requiring or having a full undergraduate education in the humanities or performing arts.

Thus, I don't see why the support for non-stop credentialism, which is what our corporations and universities are trying to accomplish.

One of our senior partners, a guy with a joint MBA and law degree, basically uses his legal training to do risk assessment for the instruments we sell to our clients. Was the degree necessary? No, but this is about projecting an image and it certainly helps in dealing with risk averse clients that one of the founders has a legal background. Nonetheless, we contract out our actual legal tasks.

As for other ppl, at lower echelons in various companies, added degrees are even less worthwhile, as their jobs are less image conscious. And yes, ppl should know how to write and communicate. There are organizations like Toastmaster's Intl, etc, which can help with that.

13   HydroCabron   2015 Mar 30, 12:24pm  

I'm just looking for people who don't say "fast-track", "best of breed", "going forward basis" and "is is".

14   Rin   2015 Mar 30, 12:26pm  

HydroCabron says

I'm just looking for people who don't say "fast-track", "best of breed", "going forward basis" and "is is".

Since MBAs have taken over much of upper and middle management, that isn't going to happen because even the nerdier types, will adopt those slogans, to try to get ahead. That's what happens when a culture gets co-opted.

15   Dan8267   2015 Mar 30, 12:44pm  

Call it Crazy says

Girlfriends

are not an innovation, dumb ass. And it's your anti-intellectual attitude that's the problem with this country. Stupidity should not be glorified. I understand that you want stupidity to be glorified because that's your only accomplishment, but stupidity is just despicable.

16   Dan8267   2015 Mar 30, 12:45pm  

SoftShell says

I was coping free titty feels playing missile command on my atari 800 with my gf....my hand would 'accidentally' slip off the joystick while laying down a right to left screenwide defensive burst protecting the eastern seaboard from russian sub nukes...

And I'm sure your sister appreciated that.

17   EBGuy   2015 Mar 30, 12:46pm  

bob2356 said: No but someone who was a college dropout well versed in calligraphy sure did.

I think that flew over everyone's heads. Either that, or they're ignoring you.

18   Dan8267   2015 Mar 30, 12:49pm  

Rin says

You see, the problem is that we have an overly credentialed society. What really needs to happen is to admit the greatest truth of them all and that's that much of the work out there, doesn't require a university degree.

In my opinion, university degrees don't mean crap. What matters is what people can actually accomplish. We have too many degrees and too few people capable or willing to do a good job in any field.

One of my friends proposes that 80% of the people in any field are mediocre and doing the bare minimal to not get fired. I hope he's wrong because I like to think doctors, the people we trust our lives with, are a bit better than that with the tough criteria for becoming one, but I'm not sure.

In any case, I'd say that at least 90% of the software developers I met in life, I consider unworthy to write code. They are not intelligent enough and diligent enough to do such important work.

Of course, management is rarely interested in quality work. They just want stuff good enough to fool someone into buying the company out.

19   Rin   2015 Mar 30, 12:50pm  

EBGuy says

I think that flew over everyone's heads. Either that, or they're ignoring you.

One Steve Jobs doesn't mean that a random person, engaged in such an activity, will have the vision of a how a user interface should look like.

The random person will simply get a university degree, either majoring in that area, or using it as an elective.

20   Rin   2015 Mar 30, 12:51pm  

Dan8267 says

In my opinion, university degrees don't mean crap. What matters is what people can actually accomplish. We have too many degrees and too few people capable or willing to do a good job in any field.

Dan, we're on the same page, which is why I'm advocating neither a STEM nor a humanities bachelors for the average person who doesn't want to take on a huge debt.

21   Dan8267   2015 Mar 30, 12:51pm  

bob2356 says

I'm guessing your massive inferiority complex and major defensive attitude was the result of being a very picked on nerd in the past.

I'm guessing that you're projecting your envy of more intelligent people.

Yes, I did read the same article as you, but I have a vastly different world view than you. I'd explain it to you, but seem like you prefer being an asshole, so I have little motivation to open up to you. Feel free to prove me wrong about you being an asshole by being nicer.

22   bob2356   2015 Mar 30, 12:52pm  

EBGuy says

bob2356 said: No but someone who was a college dropout well versed in calligraphy sure did.

I think that flew over everyone's heads. Either that, or they're ignoring you.

I guess that proves the point.

23   Y   2015 Mar 30, 12:54pm  

Oh honey!
No need to be so hateful on such an innocent subject!

Dan8267 says

SoftShell says

I was coping free titty feels playing missile command on my atari 800 with my gf....my hand would 'accidentally' slip off the joystick while laying down a right to left screenwide defensive burst protecting the eastern seaboard from russian sub nukes...

And I'm sure your sister appreciated that.

24   Y   2015 Mar 30, 12:57pm  

ahhh...the irony of it all...

Dan8267 says

Feel free to prove me wrong about you being an asshole by being nicer.

Dan8267 says

SoftShell says

I was coping free titty feels playing missile command on my atari 800 with my gf....my hand would 'accidentally' slip off the joystick while laying down a right to left screenwide defensive burst protecting the eastern seaboard from russian sub nukes...

And I'm sure your sister appreciated that.

25   bob2356   2015 Mar 30, 1:05pm  

Dan8267 says

bob2356 says

I'm guessing your massive inferiority complex and major defensive attitude was the result of being a very picked on nerd in the past.

I'm guessing that you're projecting your envy of more intelligent people.

Yes, I did read the same article as you, but I have a vastly different world view than you. I'd explain it to you, but seem like you prefer being an asshole, so I have little motivation to open up to you. Feel free to prove me wrong about you being an asshole by being nicer.

Says the nice guy who said your sister enjoyed that. Even if you were more intelligent I wouldn't have any envy whatsoever of someone so defensive and egotistical. I don't really give a rats ass about someone so self important that he considers 90% of coders unworthy of his standards opening up to me. You're a legend in your own mind.

26   Dan8267   2015 Mar 30, 1:07pm  

SoftShell says

ahhh...the irony of it all...

bob2356 says

Says the nice guy who said your sister enjoyed that.

SoftShell, aka Mars Attacks, aka Shrek has long ago established himself as a troll. I was giving you, bob, the benefit of the doubt, but you're rapidly classifying yourself as a troll. And no, trolls don't get nice treatment.

27   Rin   2015 Mar 30, 1:14pm  

I'm going to have to give Dan his props here. He's among the few ppl on this forum, who cares about science and engineering work in America.

And like him, I'm also aware that it'll come to an end, during our lifetime, as corporate America has abandoned R&D. It'll find a new home overseas.

28   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Mar 30, 1:38pm  

Rin says

corporate America has abandoned R&D

Of interest to you and Dan, David Graeber on the apparent halt of groundbreaking new technologies and exploiting existing ones.
http://www.thebaffler.com/salvos/of-flying-cars-and-the-declining-rate-of-profit

A bit to whet your whistles:


Some of those science fiction fantasies (at this point we can’t know which ones) could have been brought into being. For earlier generations, many science fiction fantasies had been brought into being. Those who grew up at the turn of the century reading Jules Verne or H.G. Wells imagined the world of, say, 1960 with flying machines, rocket ships, submarines, radio, and television—and that was pretty much what they got. If it wasn’t unrealistic in 1900 to dream of men traveling to the moon, then why was it unrealistic in the sixties to dream of jet-packs and robot laundry-maids?

Not to mention permanent bases in space and commercial space travel - which wasn't considered fantastic but highly likely in 1968, but is considered "dreaming" today.

While many of the historical trends Toffler describes are accurate, the book appeared when most of these exponential trends halted. It was right around 1970 when the increase in the number of scientific papers published in the world—a figure that had doubled every fifteen years since, roughly, 1685—began leveling off. The same was true of books and patents.

Toffler’s use of acceleration was particularly unfortunate. For most of human history, the top speed at which human beings could travel had been around 25 miles per hour. By 1900 it had increased to 100 miles per hour, and for the next seventy years it did seem to be increasing exponentially. By the time Toffler was writing, in 1970, the record for the fastest speed at which any human had traveled stood at roughly 25,000 mph, achieved by the crew of Apollo 10 in 1969, just one year before. At such an exponential rate, it must have seemed reasonable to assume that within a matter of decades, humanity would be exploring other solar systems.

Since 1970, no further increase has occurred. The record for the fastest a human has ever traveled remains with the crew of Apollo 10. True, the commercial airliner Concorde, which first flew in 1969, reached a maximum speed of 1,400 mph. And the Soviet Tupolev Tu-144, which flew first, reached an even faster speed of 1,553 mph. But those speeds not only have failed to increase; they have decreased since the Tupolev Tu-144 was cancelled and the Concorde was abandoned.

29   Dan8267   2015 Mar 30, 1:44pm  

Call it Crazy says

which

I get it. You're a troll. You have no life. The only way to make yourself feel better about yourself is to make the same lame joke over and over again. You lack the creativity and originality to come up with new material like the rest of us can. It's really sad. Perhaps you're also jealous of the vast number of sexual partners single, financially successful men over 30 enjoy in contrast to the one ugly bitch you're stuck with for life. Well, you have only yourself to blame. I didn't tell you to get marry.

30   Dan8267   2015 Mar 30, 1:58pm  

Call it Crazy says

That's funny, coming from the fat nerd that sits all alone in his apartment with no girlfriend, wife, family, kids, pets, etc. in Boca Raton and spends the bulk of his time on Youtube...

1. 155 lbs at 5'11" is not fat.
2. I live in a house, not an apartment.
3. I've had far more sexual partners than you, not to mention way better.
4. Getting a crappy, fat American wife and pooping out kids is not an accomplishment.
5. Boca Raton, FL is a hell of lot nicer than whatever backwater creek you live in. Hmmm, maybe CIC lives in Tickle Creek? Would explain a lot.
6. Just because I know how to use the search feature in YouTube doesn't mean I spend the bulk of my time there. I suppose to a technologically illiterate luddite like you it must seem like it takes countless decades to master a search textbox.

31   Rin   2015 Mar 30, 2:30pm  

Dan8267 says



4. Getting a crappy, fat American wife and pooping out kids is not an accomplishment.

Ouch!

32   Rin   2015 Mar 30, 2:31pm  

thunderlips11 says

Of interest to you and Dan, David Graeber on the apparent halt of groundbreaking new technologies and exploiting existing ones.

http://www.thebaffler.com/salvos/of-flying-cars-and-the-declining-rate-of-profit

A bit to whet your whistles:

Excellent commentary on the demise of true science and engineering R&D. The corporatization of both, the academy and private R&D, is the downfall of science.

33   Y   2015 Mar 30, 2:37pm  

So in Honey's world, "nice guys" have a free pass to abdicate their "niceness" and reveal their true identity, a harsh son of a bitch, whenever a troll makes an innocent statement.
hmmm..maybe Honey's "nice guys" arn't so nice after all...

And while I concede, and on occasion, trumpet my stunningly hybrid trollism, you've yet to provide any evidence that softshell = mars attacks = shrek.
But hey...thanks for the laugh!

Dan8267 says

bob2356 says

Says the nice guy who said your sister enjoyed that.

SoftShell, aka Mars Attacks, aka Shrek has long ago established himself as a troll.

34   bob2356   2015 Mar 30, 5:35pm  

Dan8267 says


ahhh...the irony of it all...

bob2356 says

Says the nice guy who said your sister enjoyed that.

SoftShell, aka Mars Attacks, aka Shrek has long ago established himself as a troll.

That excuses it. I think not.

Dan8267 says

I was giving you, bob, the benefit of the doubt, but you're rapidly classifying yourself as a troll. And no, trolls don't get nice treatment.

After dinner I'll faint.

Funny someone so intelligent doesn't grasp the meaning of the word troll. I'm not posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages. I posted a very specific response to your "what we 'nerds' did during the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s" nerds are now trendsetters bullshit.

35   Dan8267   2015 Mar 30, 5:52pm  

Ah, I love the smell of pissed off trolls in the morning. It smells like victory.

36   Dan8267   2015 Mar 30, 7:05pm  

Except that I live in a house. If you can't accept such a simple and indisputable fact, it's no wonder you're delusional.

I can only guess that, despite the fact that the vast majority of people my age in South Florida live in houses, you must think that's implausible because you live in a run down trailer in Tickle Creek.

37   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Apr 7, 9:55am  

Great Article about STEM Obsession:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-stem-wont-make-us-successful/2015/03/26/5f4604f2-d2a5-11e4-ab77-9646eea6a4c7_story.html?tid=trending_strip_5

TL;DR: Sweden and Israel suck at Math, worse than the USA, but have ridiculously high levels of entrepreneurship and inventiveness. SK and Japan with high math scores doesn't.

38   Dan8267   2015 Apr 7, 10:12am  

Call it Crazy says

Are you having a tough time separating reality and Youtube videos?

Video evidence is video evidence whether the video is hosted on YouTube.com or a government site or an associated press site. The hosting company does not affect the content. The fact that you cannot get this through you puny head simply demonstrates how stupid you are.

39   Dan8267   2015 Apr 7, 10:15am  

Call it Crazy says

The problem is, we can't separate your lies from the truth

It's easy. I've never lied on this site. You're confusing me with you.

I have no incentive to lie as its the reasons for my positions that matter to me. I believe entirely in transparency and verifiability. Lying, even to support a position, would be counterproductive in my world view. It is worse to be right for the wrong reasons than to be wrong but logical based on available information. Of course, a lying sack of shit like you couldn't possibly comprehend that.

40   Bigsby   2015 Apr 7, 10:52am  

Call it Crazy says

Dan8267 says

155 lbs at 5'11" is not fat.

Anybody can make up untrue numbers.

In fairness, why would you make up those numbers? 5'11" and 155 Ibs - that's fucking malnourished for someone in his 30s.

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