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Are people really this naive?

By CovfefeButDeadly following x   2015 Jun 27, 10:16am 19,160 views   33 comments   watch   nsfw   quote     share    


I've posted in the past that despite being a fan of the Beattles(and who isn't) that I can't stand the John Lennon song "imagine". Mostly this is because it's a fairy tale that can't exist outside the government forcing people to do stuff....essentially destroying the individual freedoms that actually lead to happiness.

So today I came across this:

"Let us fight to free the world, to do away with national barriers, to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men's happiness."

My question...does anyone actually believe the above statement? That removing freedom of individual rights and freedom of thought will result in anything other than absolute enslavement of the majority of the human race?

1   Tenpoundbass   ignore (14)   2015 Jun 27, 10:24am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Thanks for making perfectly good sense about one of my favorite songs, you bastard.

and you are correct.

It's still a beautiful progression.

2   lostand confused   ignore (0)   2015 Jun 27, 10:42am   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

dodgerfanjohn says

Let us fight to free the world, to do away with national barriers, to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men's happiness

I wonder if this has been repeated over millennia. people get too civilized/liberalized and start living in the clouds/leftist utopia. Then the barbarians who are hungry and live in the real world become strong attack, plunder and loot.

3   tatupu70   ignore (0)   2015 Jun 27, 10:56am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

lostand confused says

I wonder if this has been repeated over millennia. people get too civilized/liberalized and start living in the clouds/leftist utopia. Then the barbarians who are hungry and live in the real world become strong attack, plunder and loot.

Actually, it's probably more like a small subset of the population gets wealthier and wealthier until the population has finally had enough of working for the scraps that the rich give them, so they finally rise up.and redistribute the wealth by force.

4   CovfefeButDeadly   ignore (5)   2015 Jun 27, 11:55am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

And here I thought the only white guys that get angry are redneck republicans :)

5   lostand confused   ignore (0)   2015 Jun 27, 12:24pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

tatupu70 says

Actually, it's probably more like a small subset of the population gets wealthier and wealthier until the population has finally had enough of working for the scraps that the rich give them, so they finally rise up.and redistribute the wealth by force.

Fantasy aside, what do you do for a living may I ask? The amount of energy you have vested in this fantasy, if you take it and channel into something productive, you might actually get wealthier or at least happy that you tried.

6   tatupu70   ignore (0)   2015 Jun 27, 12:33pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote   flag        

Lol--why do you assume that I'm not successful and wealthy? Because I see the truth about wealth inequality? Newsflash for you--bill gates and warren Buffett say similar things.

I'm doing quite well actually. And I'd like to avoid a 2nd Great Depression. I'm sorry you think that's a fantasy.

7   jazz_music   ignore (6)   2015 Jun 27, 1:22pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (4)   quote   flag        

Obvious that the mainstream of population has ALREADY lost their free will under their daytime superiors in their whip-cracking roles and by night with the hundreds of million dollars per year INVESTED against our ability to see the way things really are. The "package" is delivered daily via radio, TV and www indoctrination into the shallowest of consumerism and fear of all that isn't "already on the menu." --the 'package' is practically all you can get except for those weirdos!

You gain a priceless, blissful ignorance if you submit.

8   Bellingham Bill   ignore (5)   2015 Jun 27, 1:26pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote   flag        

dodgerfanjohn says

That removing freedom of individual rights and freedom of thought

that's just it -- greed, hate, and intolerance are what destroys societies.

The US had to deal with a nasty bout of Greed in the 19th century, when the Progressive Movement instituted some much-needed social reforms, much of which still survive today, but of course are under continued attack by the plutocrats who fund "Movement Conservatism" -- wanting to return to the good ol' days of the Gilded Age

Greed essentially manifests itself as a violation of the Golden Rule -- to treat others as you would be treated.

Hate, we can see that in the Ireland Troubles, a nation divided by Hate.

Intolerance is mostly about people trying to bring their goatherder religion into the public square, instituting their bullshit morality as law.

We saw this in Roberts' ludicrous dissent last week on the gay thing, saying boo-hoo the majority just took away our ability to legislate hate of the gays like the Aztecs and Han Chinese did. Since when did the fucking aztecs become a model of our society???

http://www.theawl.com/2015/06/forget-scalia-justice-roberts-is-a-total-marriage-moron

With my libertarian hat on, let me say Fuck Off with your intolerance -- the only thing I can't tolerate is intolerance!

It it doesn't affect you, laissez faire! And leave your bronze age "Judeo-Christian" morals at home, and try not to program your kids to be the asshole you are while you're at it.

9   Bellingham Bill   ignore (5)   2015 Jun 27, 1:41pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

I disagree about this being the end times. Technology is pretty powerful.

Key thing is to avoid Malthusian dynamics . . . India had better get their act together on the demographics thing.

I think Japan is sitting pretty this century and next, as they can just recycle what wealth they have to serve their declining population.

The ugly/hidden truth about our society is that this is a time of immense plenty, but rising living costs of housing and health care are taking this plenty away for most people.

https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=1lAK

^ weekly labor hours required to cover per-capita housing and health costs

10   CovfefeButDeadly   ignore (5)   2015 Jun 27, 5:15pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

jazz music says

This might have been a discussion of possibilities for human aspiration. Nobody is addressing dodgerfanjohn's IMPLIED question which should be rephrased as "HOW could people ever shed greed, hate and intolerance as in the imagined dreamworld of John Lennon's song WITHOUT losing free will in the process?" One could Imagine by turning to the ideals of "reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men's happiness." --instead of never ending war as science and progress presently is subordinated to this national empire of military-related jobs where executives "carpetbag" and golden parachute their way into luxurious retirement out of any culpability for their dastardly careers.

Close.

Still ignores that many of these traits(Greed, hate, power, etc) are hardwired into various people, whether it be through genetics or environment, much the same that the urge of one man to fellate another man is also hardwired into some men by genetics, environment and a combination of both. Which is the root of the matter....

11   CovfefeButDeadly   ignore (5)   2015 Jun 27, 5:19pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Bellingham Bill says

that's just it -- greed, hate, and intolerance are what destroys societies.

The US had to deal with a nasty bout of Greed in the 19th century, when the Progressive Movement instituted some much-needed social reforms, much of which still survive today, but of course are under continued attack by the plutocrats who fund "Movement Conservatism" -- wanting to return to the good ol' days of the Gilded Age

Greed essentially manifests itself as a violation of the Golden Rule -- to treat others as you would be treated.

Well, not really what I am talking about. Legislating is one thing, but the quote I cited advocates "to do away with national barriers, to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance"

Aside of no one addressing the doing away with national barriers, which is largely the one thing keeping most of us safe or at least relatively safe, doing away with greed hate and tolerance cannot be done by legislation short of totalitarianism and even then it will exist, but just mostly in the elites and political class. And actually it will still exist but people will make every attempt possible to repress it.

12   rooemoore   ignore (1)   2015 Jun 27, 7:51pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Who the fuck are the "Beattles"?

13   jazz_music   ignore (6)   2015 Jun 27, 10:41pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote   flag        

They are a group of assholes that demand people spell check before posting even though they know what is being said.

14   jazz_music   ignore (6)   2015 Jun 28, 9:44am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote   flag        

Unfortunately our daily knowledge comes from Newscorp and a handful of relentless broadcasting conglomerates with unimaginable extents of money and power, as we are motivated to compete to undermine each other day in and day out.

anonymous says

Our knowledge has made us cynical; our cleverness, hard and unkind

15   HydroCabron   ignore (1)   2015 Jun 28, 10:12am   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (3)   quote   flag        

If you immediately equate silly, kumbaya statements about improving the world with fascism and the repression of individual liberty, you have learned your programming well. You are not a threat to Rupert Murdoch, and he thanks you for it.

There will never be John Lennon feel-good paradise (he lived in the Dakota and supported Reagan, anyway, because he was a colossal hypocrite with nothing but contempt for his fans, his friends, his wife and his family), but passing laws against being an asshole is not the same as building a concentration camp. We are all enslaved by our social connections and societal obligations, even in libertopia. It never ceases.

I personally hate this "Visualize Whirled Peas" feel-goodism, but there are other, far more powerful precursors to fascism out there.

16   Reality   ignore (5)   2015 Jun 28, 1:08pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

tatupu70 says

I wonder if this has been repeated over millennia. people get too civilized/liberalized and start living in the clouds/leftist utopia. Then the barbarians who are hungry and live in the real world become strong attack, plunder and loot.

Actually, it's probably more like a small subset of the population gets wealthier and wealthier until the population has finally had enough of working for the scraps that the rich give them, so they finally rise up.and redistribute the wealth by force.

What a load of nonsense. Peasant rebellions hardly ever succeeded either in the West or the East, despite Marxian historiography claiming to the contrary. Even the Marxist revolutions were always led by the Intelligentsia in every single country that had one.

When American Revolution took place, the British had the most enlightened colonial rule of all European mother countries, yet the wealthy American merchants and plantation owners decided that they could do better without the British imposed taxes.

When French Revolution took place, Louise XVI's Court was the most liberal among major imperial courts on the European Continent, far more liberal than those of Prussia, Austro-Hungary and Russia, overstaffed with "well-educated" bureaucrats produced by the University of Paris, then the center of learning in Europe, hence expensive to maintain in terms of taxes, with still more University of Paris graduates shuffling around in the streets under-employed compared to the promise of cushy government jobs and Church jobs that were promised when they went to the university. Robespierre was a lawyer educated by the French state and a student leader at the University of Paris having had personal audience with the King during the King's visit; Marat the demagogue was a writer and publisher. The Storming of Bastille and Women's March on Versaille that brought the King back to Paris essentially imprisoning him and his family were both deliberately organized events paid for by the King's cousin Duke of Orleans "Phillipe Egalite" who coveted the throne as a constitutional monarch and was both a Jacobin Club member and the richest man in France. It can be argued that the Jacobin Club would long have been abolished without his protection (the future revolutionaries were meeting in his palace!); none of the major turning points during the first half of the revolution would have taken place without his financing. That is, before his head too was severed from his body on the guillotine shortly after the King and Queen lost theirs.

Russian Revolution was financed and initially organized by the German military intelligence, which shipped both Lenin and Trotsky back to Russia from overseas. The storming of Winter Palace was nothing like the later soviet propaganda depictions, but only a few dozen to a couple hundred fighters involved, just like the show-down in the early 1990's siege of the Russian parliament building that was decided by a single battalion of soldiers. The old state structures were simply too tired and too exhausted to defend itself.

The Western Roman Empire, the Eastern Roman Empire, various Caliphates and Chinese empires all became too top-heavy and too expensive in terms of economic burden (taxes and monetary inflation) to their subjects, who then welcomed invaders who promised lower taxes.

As societies develop, a government sitting in peace for too long tend to attract economic rentiers: the government bureaucrats, who not only need graft to live a life better than the plebians, but also want to give their own kids a leg up on other people's kids. More and more people in each generation are sucked into the counter-productive "business" of running the monopoly that is called "government." Eventually this government rentier class becomes too heavy of a burden for the productive classes of the society. Even younger members of the wannabe bureaucrats trained by state itself find their paths of promotion blocked by sitting bureaucrats, so they are eager to overthrow the existing order either by internal revolution or by inviting external conqurers, as they envision new-comers would hire them to manage the state as bureaucrats after liquidating the sitting bureaucrats. A "sophisticated" government that has too high taxes in order to pay for too many bureaucrats to run the show literally has too few supporters and too many enemies. There are always economic cycles or natural disasters just around the corner to provide the perturbation that lead to the immediate collapse of the house of cards.

17   jazz_music   ignore (6)   2015 Jun 28, 1:57pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (3)   quote   flag        

Government is a tool, like a truck. It is needed for very practical reasons. One can curse it for the driver but that is a perversion of the situation. We are lead to focus fear onto government, not those who drive it. Really government is the only tool we have to correct the outgrageuos injustices of our time but WE MUST DRIVE IT, not billionaire's money but us voters.

Similar nonsense would be we could prosecute trucks instead of drivers. Prosecute guns instead of the shooters. Prosecute drugs instead of the addicted. Do you see how we are mislead by lackeys of the powerful???

Reality says

the counter-productive "business" of running the monopoly that is called "government."

18   Reality   ignore (5)   2015 Jun 28, 8:11pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

jazz music says

Government is a tool, like a truck. It is needed for very practical reasons. One can curse it for the driver but that is a perversion of the situation. We are lead to focus fear onto government, not those who drive it. Really government is the only tool we have to correct the outgrageuos injustices of our time but WE MUST DRIVE IT, not billionaire's money but us voters.

Similar nonsense would be we could prosecute trucks instead of drivers. Prosecute guns instead of the shooters. Prosecute drugs instead of the addicted. Do you see how we are mislead by lackeys of the powerful???

Reality says

the counter-productive "business" of running the monopoly that is called "government."

Government is not a tool, but an artificial entity concocted by a group of individuals to coerce other individuals. A monopolistic coercive entity is more likely to perpetuate injustice than correct injustice. Government should be used as sparingly as possible, if at all.

Billionaire's money can not coerce anyone without using government. Voters using the coercive power government is no more just than a billionaire using it. Chances are though once a nexus of coercive found is established via government, the small group of dedicated profiteers are far more likely to capture it than the apathetic voters at large. That is the fundamental reason why societies tend to grow top heavy and eventually collapse because of it.

19   marcus   ignore (8)   2015 Jun 28, 8:11pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (3)   quote   flag        

dodgerfanjohn says

that I can't stand the John Lennon song "imagine". Mostly this is because it's a fairy tale that can't exist outside the government forcing people to do stuff....essentially destroying the individual freedoms that actually lead to happiness.

Typical black and white simplistic right winger thinking.

Newsflash: It's just a song. The song only asks you to 'imagine.' It's like asking a good question. Of course part of the answer to that question is that humans and humanity in this materialistic world don't work that way. He even acknowledges in the song that of course we can not imagine living without possessions.

The song is simply lamenting some troubling limitations of being a human, but also pointing to some good practices, such as being in the present moment.

If right wing politics and hate hadn't created the prism that you see life through, you might have been able to better appreciate it as simply a nice song, that's happens to be thought provoking. Hell, it's even thought provoking to you, you just missed the point, and read too much politics in to it.

20   Reality   ignore (5)   2015 Jun 28, 8:49pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

thunderlips11 says

Just ask the Indians, Native American or actual South Asian.

People who romanticize the 19th Century think Africa and India were conquered by cookies and bible tracts.

19th century colonial land grabs in Africa and India were little different from Russian expansion through Siberia from 17th century through 20th century. They had little to do with capitalism, but everything to do with political ambitions by potentates looking at maps.

Most of the 19th century map painting were simply unprofitable (hence had to be funded by the State), contrasting with the earlier trading outposts established by VOC, British East Indies Company, etc.. If not for political machination, colonialism would have ended after the collapse of VOC and then collapse of BEI during Sepoy Rebellion. . . instead of dragging on into WWI, then WWII.

21   bob2356   ignore (4)   2015 Jun 28, 11:43pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote   flag        

Reality says

19th century colonial land grabs in Africa and India were little different from Russian expansion through Siberia from 17th century through 20th century. They had little to do with capitalism, but everything to do with political ambitions by potentates looking at maps.

Most of the 19th century map painting were simply unprofitable (hence had to be funded by the State), contrasting with the earlier trading outposts established by VOC, British East Indies Company, etc.. If not for political machination, colonialism would have ended after the collapse of VOC and then collapse of BEI during Sepoy Rebellion. . . instead of dragging on into WWI, then WWII.

Portuguese and spanish colonialism predated VOC by over a century. Are you seriously comparing trading outposts with colonialism? Talk about utter ignorance of historical facts. Other than batavia and some small islands none of the trading companies captured a lot of territory. Most of the fighting was between europeans protecting routes and trade posts from each other. The chinese, vietnamese, and cambodians stomped the VOC when it tried to capture ports. The VOC helped the king of kandy in sri lanka drive out the portuguese and took some ports from the portuguese when they left. The VOC military was mostly for protection of the trading posts, not domination of territory.

Colonialism was very profitable in the 19th century. This was the time of the scramble for africa and all of the african resources. The reason it was done by states is that states have armies and navies large enough to take on entire countries.

22   Reality   ignore (5)   2015 Jun 29, 4:44am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

bob2356 says

Are you seriously comparing trading outposts with colonialism? Talk about utter ignorance of historical facts.

I was _contrasting_ trading outposts with state-run colonialism. I hope you understand the difference between "contrast" vs. "compare." As for utter ignorance of historical facts, you are speaking of yourself; are you the next stooge to pop up for these debates?

bob2356 says

Colonialism was very profitable in the 19th century. This was the time of the scramble for africa and all of the african resources.

Talk about utter ignorance of historical facts. The scramble for Africa was classic imperial over-reach out of political hubris, perhaps profitable for the munition makers but certainly unprofitable for the European States and taxpayers, especially since such a scramble inevitably would lead to conflict among European countries.

The reason it was done by states is that states have armies and navies large enough to take on entire countries.

Having to use such large armies and navies was one of the big reasons why such imperialism was unprofitable. The reason it was done by states was because the undertaking itself would be unprofitable and had to be funded by governments (i.e. tax slaves and eventually draftee slaves in a major conflict among mother countries), as demonstrated by the Sepoy Rebellion leading to British crown bailing out and taking of East India Company possessions in India. Selling munitions to taxpayer funded overseas misadventure however was profitable, so there was political agitation in European countries to scramble for Africa and paint the maps.

23   bob2356   ignore (4)   2015 Jun 29, 7:06am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote   flag        

Reality says

bob2356 says

Are you seriously comparing trading outposts with colonialism? Talk about utter ignorance of historical facts.

I was _contrasting_ trading outposts with state-run colonialism. I hope you understand the difference between "contrast" vs. "compare." As for utter ignorance of historical facts, you are speaking of yourself; are you the next stooge to pop up for these debates?

Reality says


Colonialism was very profitable in the 19th century. This was the time of the scramble for africa and all of the african resources.

Talk about utter ignorance of historical facts. The scramble for Africa was classic imperial over-reach out of political hubris, perhaps profitable for the munition makers but certainly unprofitable for the European States and taxpayers, especially since such a scramble inevitably would lead to conflict among European countries.

What a joke. Running everything through the libertarian filter certainly allows you to ignore a lot of history. Government and industry were intermixed in colonialism from the beginning. There was never any real government "profit". Even the largest exploitive mineral extraction in history, new world gold/silver, only returned about 20% to the crown. The rest went to the investors and the merchants. The government role was to to finance exploration to open trade routes and/or colonize to allow merchants to make profit. Colonies were a losing proposition financially for governments from the conquest of ceuta on. As they were for the properties controlled by VOC/EIC who had to be bailed out by government.

Your intermixing different nations, different era's, and different types of colonialism is just ridiculous. The economics and politics of spanish/portuguese conquistadors is nothing at all like the dutch/british trading companies or the leopold/rhodes type of resource exploitation of africa.

If you are looking for stooges try the mirror.

24   CovfefeButDeadly   ignore (5)   2015 Jun 29, 7:38am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Hi argue for the sake of argue :)

25   lostand confused   ignore (0)   2015 Jun 29, 8:09am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Greed, hate, power are all normal emotions. In moderation they are fine.

26   mell   ignore (2)   2015 Jun 29, 8:22am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Greed - It all comes back either to Zionists or Austrian-born Republican free-masons.

27   tatupu70   ignore (0)   2015 Jun 29, 8:44am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Reality says

Billionaire's money can not coerce anyone without using government

Nominated.

Because ordinary citizens are never influenced by money.


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