patrick.net
An Antidote to Corporate Media
1,189,926 comments by 13,850 users - Ceffer, WookieMan online now
Eurozone's poorer nations take hard line on Greece
invite response
2015 Jul 7, 10:50am 12,047 views 27 comments
Comments 1 - 27 of 27 Search these comments
zzyzzx
2015 Jul 7, 10:51am
Good to see some of the responsible nations in Europe speak up.
Europe is full of examples that austerity works. Greece should look to the successes of countries like Latvia when examining its own failure as a country.
Jealous poorer sheeple nations that are afaid to tell the EU,FU.
And a hardy FU from Spain ,Portugal, & others,soon?
MisdemeanorRebel
2015 Jul 7, 8:58pm
Time for a Baltic Joke.
Estonia and Lithuania bring Latvia birthday presents.
Lithuania says "I brought you a potato"
Estonia says "I brought you a puppy."
Latvia says, "I'll eat the potato first."
Strategist
2015 Jul 7, 9:18pm
Good to see some of the responsible nations in Europe speak up.
Europe is full of examples that austerity works. Greece should look to the successes of countries like Latvia when examining its own failure as a country.
Just boot Greece out, and give the money to the more needy nations.
Strategist
2015 Jul 7, 9:31pm
Just boot Greece out, and give the money to the more needy nations.
Give it to the USA?
Stop being selfish. Think about Marcus and other pensioners who deserve retiring at age 55.
Strategist says: Think about Marcus and other pensioners who deserve retiring at age 55.
Marcus is probably part of the CalSTRS 2% at 60 program. Assuming 30 years of service at 55 (which is probably not the case, but possible), he would get (1.4%x30) 42% of his salary. Post reform teachers (2% at 62) would get (1.16% x 30 years) 34.8% of salary as pension if they retired at 55. See this table.
I think you're confusing Marcus with a public safety officer (3% at 50, before reforms and 3% at 55, post CalPERS reforms).
zzyzzx
2015 Jul 8, 6:56am
Here is the problem, those nations don't share the currency.
Neither does the UK or Poland. But even if they did (and they won't) it probably wouldn't be a problem since they don't do stupid stuff like Greece does.
MisdemeanorRebel
2015 Jul 8, 6:27pm
Neither does the UK or Poland. But even if they did (and they won't) it probably wouldn't be a problem since they don't do stupid stuff like Greece does.
Poland received a ton of aid from outside the EU, plus lots of Niemcy Blood Money as well as US targeted investment, of which Greece got little or none.
Strategist
2015 Jul 8, 6:36pm
Neither does the UK or Poland. But even if they did (and they won't) it probably wouldn't be a problem since they don't do stupid stuff like Greece does.
Right, they just throw their populaces a used bone and say, make do!
So you think making $10, but spending $20 can go on for ever.
zzyzzx
2015 Jul 8, 7:16pm
Poland received a ton of aid from outside the EU, plus lots of Niemcy Blood Money as well as US targeted investment, of which Greece got little or none.
Got a link?
And Greece didn't have to pay the Soviets reparations after WW2, so figure that in as well.
MisdemeanorRebel
2015 Jul 8, 7:22pm
That's just in the last decade, not including the billions given prior to EU or from non-EU donors, or their annual billions from the EU development and agricultural subsidies. They're building empty "innovation parks" left and right.
http://articles.latimes.com/1991-03-21/news/mn-810_1_debt-cut
The US cut Poland's debt by 70% unilaterally at least once. This obviously doesn't include other monies from other governments or private actors.
What saves Poland's ass is the ability of Poles to migrate and take jobs away from Working Class Britons, Dutch, and others in the EU.
(Hence, the symbol of the Winged Hussar Toilet Plungerer)
Strategist
2015 Jul 8, 7:36pm
"I hear some Greeks have pensions over 1,000 euros ($1,100) a month. That's outrageous. I refuse to pay for their debt while they are making fortunes compared to my salary," Bratislava waitress Martina Lelovicova told AFP on Monday in a country where the average monthly salary is 880 euros.
I think the average Greek pension was more like $1400 or $1500 a month, IIRC. But has been cut down into the $850 range.
Ohhhhh, how considerate of the Greeks.
Check this out:
http://bnn-news.com/smallest-pensions-eu-–-bulgaria-romania-lithuania-14778
"For instance, currently the average old-age pension in Lithuania is 222 euro (LVL 156), according to the Lithuanian Investment and Pension Fund Association’s report.
While in Poland the average old-age pension amount is 432 euro (LVL 303), in the Czech Republic – 409 euro (LVL 287), Slovakia – 350 euro (LVL 245), Latvia – 304 euro (LVL 213), while in Estonia – 232 euro (LVL 163).
Pensioners in Romania (175 euro/ LVL 122) and in Bulgaria (125 euro/ LVL 87) receive even less than in Lithuania."
MisdemeanorRebel
2015 Jul 8, 7:45pm
Ohhhhh, how considerate of the Greeks.
Now, the Greek government says, 45 percent of Greek pensioners hover near or below the poverty line. Sixty percent pull in less than than 700 euros ($769) a month.
Yet in many households, pensioners are the tentpoles holding the family fabric up. Half of all Greek households rely on pension payments to eke out a living.
What's the cost of living like? Here's Athens compared to Sofia. Athens is 50%+ more expensive on average. Cost of living in Athens also higher than Prague or Riga.
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Bulgaria&country2=Greece&city1=Sofia&city2=Athens
Unemployment in Athens has reached 25% thanks to Austerity, so many pensioners now support their children and grandchildren.
Greece, unlike Eastern Europe, is dominated by the aged, also. Poland, for example, has a population that is just now entering middle age, and was heavy young people in 1990. So yeah, Pensions are 18% of GDP. So what? Pension payments go right back into the local economy.
Strategist
2015 Jul 8, 7:50pm
Now, the Greek government says, 45 percent of Greek pensioners hover near or below the poverty line. Sixty percent pull in less than than 700 euros ($769) a month.
Yet in many households, pensioners are the tentpoles holding the family fabric up. Half of all Greek households rely on pension payments to eke out a living.
What's the cost of living like? Here's Athens compared to Sofia. Athens is 50%+ more expensive on average. Cost of living in Athens also higher than Prague or Riga.
It is irrelevant. Just lower the poverty line. Arbitrary lines are just that...arbitrary.
Unless you are willing to send money to the poor Greeks who deserve retirement after 52.
MisdemeanorRebel
2015 Jul 8, 7:52pm
Unless you are willing to send money to the poor Greeks who deserve retirement after 52.
Average age of retirement in 2012 was 61, a few months different than Germany, who start work years later in life, and work 20-30% less hours per year.
Greeks are the 3rd hardest working population in the OECD countries, sometimes trading spots with South Korea and Mexico. Germany is near the bottom in work hours.
I've posted this data over and over again and can't be arsed to look it up here. But apparently, some people prefer to believe the Econalchemist Austerian blabosphere than actual data.
Strategist
2015 Jul 8, 7:54pm
Unemployment in Athens has reached 25% thanks to Austerity, so many pensioners now support their children and grandchildren.
Greece, unlike Eastern Europe, is dominated by the aged, also. Poland, for example, has a population that is just now entering middle age, and was heavy young people in 1990.
So sad.
There are a billion+ people who do not have electricity.
Billions of people who're malnutrisioned.
Tens of million who are literally starving.
-----
Tell me Thunder.....who deserves help first?
MisdemeanorRebel
2015 Jul 8, 7:55pm
So sad.
There are a billion+ people who do not have electricity.
Billions of people who're malnutrisioned.
Tens of million who are literally starving.
-----
Tell me Thunder.....who deserves help first?
Wow, nice goalpost shifting!
At least you implicitly admit that work ethic =! wealth.
MisdemeanorRebel
2015 Jul 8, 7:56pm
Unless Greece had been serious about reforming labor laws, undertaking privatization, and actually collecting taxes they never should have taken the earlier terms. Why didn't they see what would happen to consumption under austerity? Why didn't they see that so little of the funds would enter their economy? Basically the loans went to creditors, and the government at the time lied about its balance sheet until the left was elected.
Greece was forced to accept a package it didn't want, not for Greece, but a PR move by the ECB and EU to restore confidence in the Technocrat Bankster Fuckups in 2008-2009.
The loan was made to save Frankfurt, not Athens.
MisdemeanorRebel
2015 Jul 8, 7:57pm
We'd better hope and pray Americans won't pay the full price for our politicians and 1%ers' mess.
Strategist
2015 Jul 8, 7:58pm
Unless you are willing to send money to the poor Greeks who deserve retirement after 52.
Average age of retirement in 2012 was 61, a few months different than Germany, who start work years later in life, and work 20-30% less hours per year.
Greeks are the 3rd hardest working population in the OECD countries, sometimes trading spots with South Korea and Mexico. Germany is near the bottom in work hours.
I've posted this data over and over again and can't be arsed to look it up here. But apparently, some people prefer to believe the Econalchemist Austerian blabosphere than actual data.
And I've asked over and over again.....if that is true why are do the Germans have more income than the Greeks? I even gave you the answers....it's not how much you work, but how much you produce. You still don't get it. :(
MisdemeanorRebel
2015 Jul 8, 8:07pm
EU Debt is 12.5T Euros.
Greece is 0.3T Euros
http://www.eudebtclock.org/
BTW, Ireland's GDP is still lower than 2008, despite about 6 years of Austerity. Ireland's debt per Capita is ~40% higher than Greece's.
MisdemeanorRebel
2015 Jul 8, 8:07pm
I don't recall the details. What coercion was used? The terms were there to be seen. Was the Greek government at the time simply incompetent?
Yep, a 1%er government.
The 1%ers in Greece, with the lion's share of the "bailout" money ensonced in Swiss Banks, is firmly in the "Yes, poor Greeks pay it all back and take pension cuts while we get foreign investment dividends wired to Geneva beyond the reach of Athens" camp.
Don't laugh, Pat.net users ---- you're on the hook for the trillions sent to Exxon, ADM, Monsanto, and Lockheed since 1980.
Strategist
2015 Jul 8, 8:50pm
Lips, what do you think is keeping Tsipras from using harsher rhetoric against the tax dodging elites and from trying to reform government?
Why does Greece have tax collection problem to begin with? Let me educate you nutty socialists. When you tax too much, everyone cheats, and no one pays.
RWSGFY
2015 Jul 9, 6:01pm
Time for a Baltic Joke.
Looks like some hastily re-hashed warmed-over Korean joke.
http://news.yahoo.com/eurozones-poorer-nations-hard-line-greece-210706427.html
Bratislava (AFP) - The eurozone's poorer former communist nations, having themselves endured painful reforms and austerity programmes, are taking a hard line on Greece after its people voted to reject creditors' bailout terms.
Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Slovakia have long insisted they are too poor to pay for the mistakes made by wealthier Greece and that it should have stuck to the reforms and austerity measures laid out in its massive 240-billion-euro ($273 billion) bailout.
"I hear some Greeks have pensions over 1,000 euros ($1,100) a month. That's outrageous. I refuse to pay for their debt while they are making fortunes compared to my salary," Bratislava waitress Martina Lelovicova told AFP on Monday in a country where the average monthly salary is 880 euros.
"It's good news for the eurozone. Greeks should leave it, this will only make it healthier," a Bratislava entrepreneur in his thirties who wished to remain anonymous told AFP of Sunday's Greek referendum result.
Slovak Finance Minister Peter Kazimir -- the first Eurogroup minister to warn after the vote that the Greek 'No' raised the spectre of a "Grexit" or exit from the euro -- told reporters: "With the result of the referendum, a possible crisis scenario, the gradual withdrawal of Greece from the eurozone, is unfolding."
Slovakia, an ex-communist nation of 5.4 million people that joined the eurozone in 2009, has suffered stubbornly high joblessness despite brisk economic growth in recent years.
Its leftist Prime Minister Robert Fico insists "Slovakia will not be harmed as a result of Greece and its decision to stay or leave the single currency union," as Bratislava "did not give any cash, only our guarantees" as part of previous Greek bailouts.
Having joined in January, the eurozone's newest member Lithuania has also not paid into previous Greek bailouts.
Its leftist Prime Minister Algirdas Butkevicius told AFP Monday he was an "optimist that Greece will not exit the eurozone" and suggested that creditors "freeze" some debt in return for structural reforms in the public sector and tax policy.
But not all poorer eurozone members have nothing to lose: Estonian President Toomas Hendrik Ilves tweeted Monday that "Greece's creditors (are) not just banks".
"Eurozone countries poorer than Greece stand to lose up to 4.2 percent GDP," he wrote.
Prime Minister Taavi Roivas for his part said Greece "now only has bad and worse choices left" and reforms "are unavoidable".
"We expect the Greek government to understand the situation and show decisiveness and action within hours," he added.
Having broken free from the crumbling Soviet Union in 1990-91, tiny Estonia and Latvia joined the eurozone in 2011 and 2014 respectively, followed by neighbor Lithuania.
All three Baltic states implemented drastic austerity measures to recover from deep recessions triggered by the 2008-09 global financial crisis, paving the way to eurozone entry and stable economic growth, now around three percent in the region.
Estonia, the eurozone's smallest member since 2011, approved an initial Greek bailout but has since said 'No' and insists that all eurozone members adopt its strict fiscal discipline.
Tallinn boasts the eurozone's lowest debt-to-GDP ratio of 10.6 percent.
"Estonians don't really understand the Greek attitude. We are used to saving and living frugally," Merit Kopli, editor in chief of Estonia's leading Postimees daily, told AFP.
Maie Mets, a 72-year-old pensioner, said: "As I understand it, the Greek standard of living is higher than ours here in Estonia. It is only normal that people pay their debts."
Latvia was hit hard by the global financial crisis, suffering the world's deepest recession when GDP shrank by nearly a quarter over two years.
Yet the nation of some two million bounced back after implementing austerity cuts under the terms of a 7.5-billion-euro international bailout it secured to avert bankruptcy.
"When we went through the international bailout, did anyone come to rescue us?" asked Zenija Lace, a 61-year-old Riga office worker.
"I have no sympathy for the Greeks. They should have started paying taxes long ago. If they want money from Europe, they should have started saving!" added 59-year-old Riga businesswoman Brigita Petersone.
"How is it that we could endure all of it and they can't?"
#eurozone