patrick.net

1790: Requiring ventilation in mineshafts and lead smelters will "hurt workers and their families."

1840: Limits on burying and dismembering coal miners will "hurt our business and the miners' families."

1860: Ending slavery "will burden working families and destroy small businesses."

1880: Emergency fire exits in factories will "hurt small businesses, cost jobs and destroy working families."

1890: Limits on child labor will "hurt small business and working families."

1915: Letting workers live outside company towns will "hurt small businesses and working families."

1933: Paying workers in cash instead of scrip will "hurt our business, as well as working families everywhere."

1970: Laws against pouring mercury, cadmium and arsenic down storm drains will "hurt you-know who: small businesses, small families, and large families."

1975: Vehicle and factory air emissions rules "will destroy every planet from Mercury through Saturn, thereby killing jobs and hurting franchises and average-sized families."

1980: Banning leaded gasoline will "destroy the U.S. economy and hurt small working businesses and small-to-medium-sized families, leaving single mothers and huge Mormon families slightly worse for wear."

1990: Even mentioning that carbon emissions are a factor in the Earth's climate "will destroy the Orion Arm of the Milky Way Galaxy, and all the small businesses, large businesses and working families of small to very large size contained within that region."

Where will the rich hide from the poor when we get to enjoy Global Financial Cataclysm?

One more time.
Gerald Celente: “When People Lose Everything, They Have Nothing Left To Lose, They Lose It”

I really think that Guillotines & Pitchforks will be great investments soon. Better get in now.

Oh,Wait! Nothing bad ever happens.

Raising minimum wage to $15 is a very bad idea. Everything is going to cost a lot more, are you people fucking insane even thinking about it?

Raising minimum wage by 50% will increase the cost by 50%. You want to pay 50% more for food, and all other stuff that is cheap now? That means you will buy less, and you'll pay more for it all. Get fucking real people, get off the moon for once!

FortWayne says

Raising minimum wage to $15 is a very bad idea. Everything is going to cost a lot more, are you people fucking insane even thinking about it?

Honey, that's not how capitalism works. The price of a product is determined entirely by what the traffic will pay, not by the cost of the product. If a company can get $5 from you for a cup of coffee, why would they charge 50 cents for it even if it only costs 10 cents to make?

How much does Dunkies pay in rent in most places in NYC?

Also, $15/hr means less food stamps, right?

$15 an hour is not enough to get by on, but better than $8.75 - elitists, CEO's and their executive teams can give up their astronomical incomes and pay the help or earn their money by figuring out ways to make it work...the big chains have destroyed mom and pop business - maybe it's time for the big chains to start closing and get the hell out of our world. People will find jobs and start their own business -

Those that defend $8.75/hr are clinging to the notion that there are sufficient higher paying jobs available to qualified mature adults such that a certain percentage of low skill jobs can be classified as "starter" jobs, and offered to the late teen/early 20 something set as gateway employment, and are not jobs intended to provide a 'living wage'.

Those that defend $15/hr are clinging to the notion that there should be no such thing as a "gateway job" anymore, given the stagnation of median wage income versus effective purchasing power and the decline in america's ability to churn out, under liberal dominated academia, the volume of highly skilled graduates, needed to repossess america's living wage employment opportunities from foreign competition,

Trace it all back to being PC...
No more discipline at home, check!
No more discipline in schools, check!
Send your kids to school all doped up on mom's legal stash. check!

When this is all over, $5 cup of coffee is gonna look cheap...

Mike McLane says

$15 an hour is not enough to get by on, but better than $8.75 - elitists

What a bunch of nonsense. Conservatives decry welfare and social spending in one breath, and then cry out against minimum wage laws in the next.

Are you really that slow that you can't see the connection? Letting employers pay slave wages so the stockholders can get even larger dividends forces society to pay higher taxes to support those earning the slave wages.

It's not that complicated.

Dan8267 says

Honey, that's not how capitalism works

Yeah, this is how it works:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/03/16/we-are-seeing-the-effects-of-seattles-15-an-hour-minimum-wage/

As the implementation date for Seattle’s strict $15 per hour minimum wage law approaches, the city is experiencing a rising trend in restaurant closures. The tough new law goes into effect April 1st. The closings have occurred across the city, from Grub in the upscale Queen Anne Hill neighborhood, to Little Uncle in gritty Pioneer Square, to the Boat Street Cafe on Western Avenue near the waterfront.

The shut-downs have idled dozens of low-wage workers, the very people advocates say the wage law is supposed to help. Instead of delivering the promised “living wage” of $15 an hour, economic realities created by the new law have dropped the hourly wage for these workers to zero.

FortWayne says

Raising minimum wage by 50% will increase the cost by 50%. You want to pay 50% more for food, and all other stuff that is cheap now? That means you will buy less, and you'll pay more for it all. Get fucking real people, get off the moon for once!

Was that meant as a joke? I'm curious.

zzyzzx says

The closings have occurred across the city, from Grub in the upscale Queen Anne Hill neighborhood, to Little Uncle in gritty Pioneer Square, to the Boat Street Cafe on Western Avenue near the waterfront.

Shocking that Forbes would be against $15/hour. But their accuracy is as unquestionable as their pumping of the internet bubble was back in the day.

I dined at a decent Italian restaurant in Seattle last might, and the place was jam packed, as was the city itself. Any restaurant that closes will quickly be replaced by another. Restaurant closures are not news.

Call it Crazy says

Whining early today, are we??

Sorry, I'm just not a big fan of my hard earned money paying taxes to support cheap, lazy corporate owners.

Call it Crazy says

What if that cup of coffee cost $1 to make due to higher wages/employee costs. Should the company still charge 50 cents because that's what you want to pay? I know, they'll just make it up on volume, right??

You are really a complete moron. Read Dan's post again and this time try to understand it.

Price is NOT a function of cost. Let me say it again--Price is NOT a function of cost.

This is basic, Econ 101 stuff. Price is set in the market by supply and demand. This can clearly be proven by looking at corporate profits-some companies make 100% gross profits, some make 50% gross profits, some make 20% gross profits, some even less. There is no relation to cost.

tatupu70 says

Price is set in the market by supply and demand.

If the market doesn't support pricing at a profitable level, then the market will disappear. This is what is going to happen in the fast food businesses unless automation displaces increased labor costs. It's just like when the UAW negotiates higher pay, and then the automakers automate and or move factories to Mexico.

zzyzzx says

If the market doesn't support pricing at a profitable level, then the market will disappear. This is what is going to happen in the fast food businesses unless automation displaces increased labor costs. It's just like when the UAW negotiates higher pay, and then the automakers automate and or move factories to Mexico.

That's going to happen eventually anyway. All we're doing now is subsidizing corporate profits with our tax dollars.

Sure I can see your point.
Are you really that obtuse that you cannot even address the concept of "starter jobs', their place in society over the past century, and how they've been virtually retired due to the competence of our education system and the politically correct policies forcefucked upon the populace which directly affect the ability of today's student to compete in the world marketplace?
That was the point of my post.

tatupu70 says

Are you really that slow that you can't see the connection? Letting employers pay slave wages so the stockholders can get even larger dividends forces society to pay higher taxes to support those earning the slave wages.

Dan8267 says

Honey, that's not how capitalism works. The price of a product is determined entirely by what the traffic will pay, not by the cost of the product. If a company can get $5 from you for a cup of coffee, why would they charge 50 cents for it even if it only costs 10 cents to make?

Sweetheart, darling, you really don't understand how capitalism works.

The corporation makes money by selling franchises to regular Joe's. I doubt they really care about how much "Joe" must spend paying his employees to make donuts and coffee. What they do care about is how much they can sell franchises for. If the return to the franchisee is crap because he has to pay higher minimum wages to his employees... and there's only so much the public would pay for a donut... Then franchise sales themselves will go down unless they reduce the buy-in to reflect the reduced return on investment for the franchisee. The fact that this CEO is making $15 million a year is a little ridiculous... And an increase to the minimum wage would likely have a negative affect on his ability to "earn" so much money, at least in the short run.

The problem with raising the minimum wage, however, is the effect it has on pricing. The people who get screwed are those who are solidly in the middle and upper middle income brackets. They don't get a raise... Yet, their costs go up as a result of a rise to the minimum wage, of which they get no direct benefit. The middle and upper-middle don't make so much money that a 30% increase to the price of groceries wouldn't hurt them. So this kind of policy only helps to exacerbate the problem of a disappearing middle class. You will still have your people on top. But the people sitting solidly on the bottom will increase as the catchment of who qualifies for the bottom continues to widen. Raising the minimum wage without cost controls will not achieve a lessened burden to anyone... and it will have all kinds of unintended consequences.

The problem isn't the minimum wage. The problem is in our taxation system. There's no excuse for a person who makes $60,000/year to pay a higher percentage of taxes than a person who makes $60 million/year. By focusing the tax policy on those people (through a flatter, but still progressive tax policy) who are making so much more than everyone else, you place the burden on those who can afford to absorb it most with the least affect on their standard of living. In this case, the only people benefiting wouldn't just be the people at the bottom. The middle and upper-middle would also benefit. Lest we forget, the important role the middle-folks play to a thriving economy.

SoftShell says

Trace it all back to being PC...

No more discipline at home, check!

No more discipline in schools, check!

Send your kids to school all doped up on mom's legal stash. check!

Bonk! Gen X and Y are less criminal than the Boomers by a country mile. Crime in this country went into free fall once the oldest boomer passed the prime crime age (35, in 1994).

true, but what does that have to do with the topic of minimum wage and the destruction of entry level jobs designed to put money in the pocket of the up and coming while they are living at home, or to supplement the income of the main wage earner in a household?

thunderlips11 says

Bonk! Gen X and Y are less criminal than the Boomers by a country mile.

Call it Crazy says

So go start your own business so YOU can become one of those "lazy corporate owners"!!

Oh wait, you won't, you rather whine why someone else won't give you THEIR money, instead of YOU earning it, just like the true socialist that you are!!

Well done---basic trolling. Don't address the point, but instead make it about the poster. And throw an insult in there for good measure.

Are you capable of having an adult discussion?

Call it Crazy says

How about the companies that make -100% GP, -50% GP or -20% GP... They still around??

Nope--that's the point. Bad businesses die so that new, better ones can take their place. I thought you were against government propping up bad businesses? That's all allowing government to pay slave wages does.

Call it Crazy says

Spoken like a person with ZERO business experience... You can only lower your price to equal your costs, any lower and the business disappears!!

No kidding. Bad businesses should fail. Better ones will take their place.

Call it Crazy says

This is basic, Econ 101 stuff.

It certainly is, which you are clueless about!!

Great---please explain to me where I'm wrong then.

SoftShell says

Are you really that obtuse that you cannot even address the concept of "starter jobs', their place in society over the past century, and how they've been virtually retired due to the competence of our education system and the politically correct policies forcefucked upon the populace which directly affect the ability of today's student to compete in the world marketplace?

That was the point of my post.

I like starter jobs---they should pay $15/hour. Because I don't like subsidizing corporate profits with my taxes.

Cheap lazy company owners give cheap lazy bastards like me, an alternative to an even cheaper social net system.

Call it Crazy says

There is no point... that's life in grown up world... Put on your big boy pants and experience it!

What's the matter?? Does the truth hurt??

Oh, that's right, you're a liberal, it does..

Clearly you're too slow to get the point. Let me try again:

When we allow corporations to pay less than living wages, we all subsidize their profits with our tax dollars. Do you think that's a good use of your tax dollars?

And, rather than "experiencing" it, I'd prefer to try and make it better.

Call it Crazy says

What's that got to do with anything. Where was anything said about Government propping up bad business?

You were, even if you're too slow to realize it. By allowing companies to pay too little on wages, you're forcing the government to prop them up by paying their workers welfare.

Call it Crazy says

If you really understood business, you would know how pricing works, the market may determine part of it, but at the end of the day, a business CAN'T sell for below their costs, no matter what the "market" wants...

No shit. If they can't afford to pay their workers a living wage, they shouldn't be in business. You think I don't understand that?

Call it Crazy says

What the fuck are you talking about? What tax dollars are subsidizing the local small businesses in your town who hire the locals at minimum wage?

It's called welfare. Are you really this clueless??

Call it Crazy says

It's been discussed here before. If you moved every minimum wage employee up to $15/hr, every employee between minimum and $15/hr. has to be moved up too. Plus, add in all the other costs (which you're clueless to) that the business has to pay (Payroll taxes, Workman's comp, Liability, etc.) that are tied to payroll.

lol--yep, I'm well aware of fringe benefits and their cost. Doesn't change my point.

Call it Crazy says

Now, every business in town does the same thing and has to add these additional business costs to their products and services. So, everything they offer goes up in price, otherwise they go out of business.

Really? So, every business in town is making basically no profits? What town do you live in??

Call it Crazy says

What's the end result? All those employees that got bumped up are now paying higher prices for all the products/services in town. It ends up being no gain for the employee.

The end result is lower government spending on welfare. More consumers. Likely lower inequality. Potentially slightly higher prices, but only potentially. Many, many companies have plenty of room to raise wages without raising prices.

zzyzzx says

Yeah, this is how it works:

"I want the burger for a nickle."
YOU... want... burger... with ... NO ... Pickles.
"I want the nickle burger, with pickles."
"I'm sorry, you want the Pickle Burger with more pickles."
"No."
"Hold on while I connect you to a live operator. The average waittime is Fif-teen minutes ... and ... twenty ... two... seconds."

SoftShell says

true, but what does that have to do with the topic of minimum wage and the destruction of entry level jobs designed to put money in the pocket of the up and coming while they are living at home, or to supplement the income of the main wage earner in a household?

You mentioned "No Discipline".

Call it Crazy says

tatupu70 says

Potentially slightly higher prices, but only potentially. Many, many companies have plenty of room to raise wages without raising prices.

*

OK, I give up... Here's your payment!

I should have known that even this simple concept was above your comprehension level.

Profits are revenue minus expenses. Profits are at an all time high. So, there is actually lots of room to increase wages before companies have to raise prices or risk going out of business.

Call it Crazy says

You are soooo clueless on what's going on in the real world....

Actually I posted data showing what's going on in the real world. You countered with nothing. Well, save your usual dumb troll dollars picture.

tatupu70 says

I like starter jobs---they should pay $15/hour. Because I don't like subsidizing corporate profits with my taxes.

You don't want to subsidize, tell government to cut off welfare and all other hand outs. Property taxes are a tax write off, lets cut that off? But if you love welfare, than love to pay for it.

Plenty of people abuse that welfare system too, It's easier to have a part time cash gig on a side and a welfare (minimum wage from government) instead of actually getting a job...

Liberals are the usual hand out crowd. They all want hand outs, they want to feel good about themselves by voting to help the "poor", they just want someone else to pay for it. Because when it comes to them paying for it, boy they don't like that one!

FortWayne says

Liberals are the usual hand out crowd. They all want hand outs, they want to feel good about themselves by voting to help the "poor", they just want someone else to pay for it. Because when it comes to them paying for it, boy they don't like that one!

Leave to you to completely miss the point again. My tax dollars are subsidizing large corporations. I thought you conservative folks were against corporate welfare, right?

tatupu70 says

Profits are revenue minus expenses. Profits are at an all time high. So, there is actually lots of room to increase wages before companies have to raise prices or risk going out of business.

1. Profits at larger corporations, especially S&P500, might be at all time high. However, they are not representative of the overall business profit picture when the government is tilting the playing field in favor of big corporations at the expense of smaller competitors. The latter are suffering, and they are the real job creators, whereas the big corporations are net job destroyers via consolidation.

2. Businesses are not run as charities: they are there to maximize return on capital not to maximize head count, especially nowadays head count brings litigation risk. The low cost of capital promoted by the FED gives businesses, especially the bigger businesses, the incentive to replace labor input factor with capital investment. Raising minimum wage will further exacerbate the problem.

When you are at the grocery store, I'm sure you shop based on what you need/want and what's a good deal. You don't go in there with the goal of spending all the money you have on you. Likewise, businesses make hiring decisions based on profitability. Raising the price of beef may well lead to you buying chicken instead. It would be silly to argue that because you have more money in your pocket, you should just give that money to the beef counter. LOL. When was the last time you tipped the checkout girl $20 just because you have that money in your pocket? Why should you expect employers to do that?

Higher minimum wage leads to higher unemployment, and lack of employment skills/experience for the young and minority. It's a double-whammy.

tatupu70 says

Leave to you to completely miss the point again. My tax dollars are subsidizing large corporations. I thought you conservative folks were against corporate welfare, right?

I get it, the liberal "anti-corporation" thing is quite common these days. Everyone who hasn't passed puberty yet these days thinks that everyone who makes above minimum wage is an asshole who needs to pay more taxes. I've heard it all.

If you are anti subsidies as you say, ask Obama to raise interest rates so that savers actually get to earn something on their money, instead of money being pushed into non productive assets such as real estate.

FortWayne says

If you are anti subsidies as you say, ask Obama to raise interest rates so that savers actually get to earn something on their money, instead of money being pushed into non productive assets such as real estate.

Wow--so many things wrong with this statement.

1. Obama doesn't control the Federal Reserve which is who I expect you believe controls interest rates
2. Interest rates are set by the market, not the Federal Reserve
3. Savings rates are different than interest rates and are also set by supply and demand.

If you want interest rates to go up, do something about wealth disparity. That is the cause.

Reality says

Profits at larger corporations, especially S&P500, might be at all time high. However, they are not representative of the overall business profit picture when the government is tilting the playing field in favor of big corporations at the expense of smaller competitors. The latter are suffering, and they are the real job creators, whereas the big corporations are net job destroyers via consolidation.

And you have data to back up this assertion? Something? Anything?

Reality says

2. Businesses are not run as charities: they are there to maximize return on capital not to maximize head count, especially nowadays head count brings litigation risk.

Exactly my point. Businesses are run to make profits, period. They will do whatever they can to increase profits. If it is cheaper to kill a few people and pay off the families, they'll do it. Or pollute the environment. Or pay slave wages to their employees. Whatever maximizes profits.

That is why it is up to the government to fight for societies best interest--in this case a higher minimum wage. It will reduce profits, so companies will fight it tooth and nail. They will put out propaganda designed to fool the Ft. Waynes and CallitCrazys of the world. But, make no mistake. It IS needed.

Reality says

It would be silly to argue that because you have more money in your pocket, you should just give that money to the beef counter. LOL. When was the last time you tipped the checkout girl $20 just because you have that money in your pocket? Why should you expect employers to do that?

Obviously--which is why nobody is making that stupid argument. I know you like to build strawmen, but let's not waste our time with them.