patrick.net

That is such a nice story, taint America great?

thunderlips11 says

Reports of wealthy men from gulf countries roaming refugee camps in Jordan have become more common. Desperate to support themselves and their families, Syrian families have been known to sell their young daughters using temporary marriages, known as sigheh, segheh, or mu’ta. Wealthy individuals from Saudi Arabia, the U.A.E. and Kuwait travel to Egypt to purchase women and girls for temporary marriages, facilitated by parents and guardians. Girls as young as 10 have been sold in this manner and later found in the streets of the men’s home countries with no way to return to their families and no one willing to take them in — except for traffickers. These children are throwaway kids, abused, used and discarded when the men are done with them.

"Temporary Marriages" Even with a child. Can be as short as one hour. These are religious morals.
The greatest irony is.....those who believe in God the most, have the least morals.

Well, that seems to be one way to slow down a rapidly multiplying plague. Instead of being breeding ground for the next generation of religious fanatics, these wombs are being used as play-things for their co-religious sick pedophiles. Was there really no chance those girls could have been raised in modern secular feminism and thereby stop breeding anyway?

DieBankOfAmericaPhukkingDie says

Markets are perfect!

This is the heart and soul of America at work!

Those girls and their families are victims of war. War is a government-caused phenomenon, not a market phenomenon. Once the war gets started, even UN Peacekeepers (the blue berets) have a long history of raping/exploiting female refugees living in camps. Mutually willing market exchanges give people higher standards of living and dignity; government force disrupts economic development and undermines human dignity.

No wonder only men show up in Europe. The islamists in Saudi are gobbling up women to build up their harems.

Strategist says

These are religious morals.

The greatest irony is.....those who believe in God the most, have the least morals.

they're just following the example of mohammed:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm

Mormons and Muhammedans seem quite similar?

Reality says

War is a government-caused phenomenon, not a market phenomenon.

Yes because if there was no government we would only have regular street fights and gangs battles and this doesn't qualify as real wars.
People could get killed to take their wallets, and women.... well they would be sold too, but at least not as victims of governments wars.

Heraclitusstudent says

War is a government-caused phenomenon, not a market phenomenon.

Yes because if there was no government we would only have regular street fights and gangs battles and this doesn't qualify as real wars.

People could get killed to take their wallets, and women.... well they would be sold too, but at least not as victims of governments wars.

LOL. IIRC, gang battles disappeared shortly after Prohibition was lifted. Gang warfare was/is profitable largely because of the drug monopoly profit enforced by government prohibition / war on drugs policies. Likewise, international warfare between governments was/is profitable because of the existence of pliant population base for taxation and draft. Otherwise, the cost of looting and killing technologically comparable foe (and risking getting killed) would be too high in the face of popular resistance, compared to peaceful exhanges.

I don't see a problem: they're not forcing these girls to get vaccinated.

Strategist says

These are religious morals.


The greatest irony is.....those who believe in God the most, have the least morals.

they're just following the example of mohammed:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm

In that case it's perfectly OK. My apologies to Arab pedophiles.

Reality says

LOL. IIRC, gang battles disappeared shortly after Prohibition was lifted. Gang warfare was/is profitable largely because of the drug monopoly profit enforced by government prohibition / war on drugs policies. Likewise, international warfare between governments was/is profitable because of the existence of pliant population base for taxation and draft. Otherwise, the cost of looting and killing technologically comparable foe (and risking getting killed) would be too high in the face of popular resistance, compared to peaceful exhanges.

Tell us one period of history when there was no wars, under any kind of regime, going back to tribal societies.
Hell... even chimps groups are raiding each others. It's the government fault!

Goddamn Liberals.

A market in prepubescent girls takes them off the street or gives the rest of their family a few bucks to buy fake ("Free Market") passports and pay human smugglers.

I swear Liberal Commies hate any Free Market solutions. Most of these children are sold with consent of their parents. I know Tyrant Authoritarians hate free people making voluntary choices. Speed Limits, banning voluntary Child Sex sales, what next, mandatory labeling of Calories in Candy?

Nevermind when the Free Marketeers impregnate or get tired of them, they can dump them off in the Slums while bragging about how Religion prevents dehumanization and immorality, because God and Faith does better than what the Government does badly

Heraclitusstudent says

Tell us one period of history when there was no wars, under any kind of regime, going back to tribal societies.

Hell... even chimps groups are raiding each others. It's the government fault!

Chimp groups are obviously far more likely to engage in violent conflict than human beings: chimp groups are far more likely to want the same limited natural resources because they do not specialize. Throughout the day, the overwhelming majority of what a chimp consumes is from the nature; another chimp just gets in the way between one chimp and nature. Whereas for a modern human being, the overwhelming majority of what one needs is produced by another human being; what useful thing or edible thing that you have touched today is not produced by another human being? Precious little if any at all.

You are correct in one regard: War is the life of State. So a "regime" is the product of warfare, which justifies the continued existence of a regime. It is still silly though to ascribe the privation of refugees to market instead of properly laying the blame at the feet of the war and the regimes that cause the war.

thunderlips11 says

A market in prepubescent girls takes them off the street or gives the rest of their family a few bucks to buy fake ("Free Market") passports and pay human smugglers.

Passports/Visa and human smugglers are largely the result of government imposing control on the free movement people.

I swear Liberal Commies hate any Free Market solutions. Most of these children are sold with consent of their parents. I know Tyrant Authoritarians hate free people making voluntary choices. Speed Limits, banning voluntary Child Sex sales, what next, mandatory labeling of Calories in Candy?

A person can voluntarily put him/herself up for sale as "slave"; yet the buyer's dream to abuse the person afterwards is simply not legally enforceable. Likewise, a parent can take money to have children adopted by someone else. The alleged right to statutory rape is simply not legally enforceable; anyone dumb enough to have sex with a minor that he just "bought" is liable to statutory rape where it is applicable. A 6 or 9 year old child simply can not give informed consent; nobody can give consent on her behalf. Fairly simply concepts. You don't mandatory caloric labeling on candies to solve this problem.

Nevermind when I impregnate or get tired of them, I dump them off in the Slums while bragging about how Religion prevents dehumanization and immorality, because God and Faith does better than what the Government does badly

Government is a non-existent entity, just like alleged "God"; those who believe in "Government" are simply religious zealots who happen to follow a faith even older than "God," which was invented to give people some "recourse" against the almighty earthly God/Government. People worshiped power long before they worshiped God.

Reality says

chimp groups are far more likely to want the same limited natural resources because they do not specialize.

That's a random assertion. Humans specialize and were always at war since the dawn of mankind.

Reality says

War is the life of State.

You fail to tell us a period of time when there was no state, or no war. Humans always had some kind of leadership. And they always had war - whether between individuals, between gangs, between tribes, between kingdoms, or countries.
These are 2 unavoidable parts of the human condition.

Reality says

It is still silly though to ascribe the privation of refugees to market instead of properly laying the blame at the feet of the war and the regimes that cause the war.

It is even more silly to generalize and say all wars and all refugees are the result of the existence of governments.

Only twenty more years, and 90% of the

https://www.youtube.com/embed/nU615FaODCg

will cease to be a problem.

Reality says

Passports/Visa and human smugglers are largely the result of government imposing control on the free movement people.

I love the idea of people carrying disease, lunatics, and criminals passing borders freely. Anything less is tryannical evil.

Reality says

A person can voluntarily put him/herself up for sale as "slave"; yet the buyer's dream to abuse the person afterwards is simply not legally enforceable. Likewise, a parent can take money to have children adopted by someone else. The alleged right to statutory rape is simply not legally enforceable; anyone dumb enough to have sex with a minor that he just "bought" is liable to statutory rape where it is applicable. A 6 or 9 year old child simply can not give informed consent; nobody can give consent on her behalf. Fairly simply concepts. You don't mandatory caloric labeling on candies to solve this problem.

First, we all know if somebody doesn't give consent, that's like Level III Body Armor against being violated. Nevermind many cultures don't recognize this or give a shit even if they give consent token recognition.

I supposed you missed Pat's post of underage marriage above. And of course...

Reality says

Government is a non-existent entity, just like alleged "God"; those who believe in "Government" are simply religious zealots who happen to follow a faith even older than "God," which was invented to give people some "recourse" against the almighty earthly God/Government. People worshiped power long before they worshiped God.

Try not paying your taxes. Whereas I can do a million things, including committing the "ultimate sin", without getting zapped by Jehovah.

We interrupt this discussion on Personal Sovereignity with a word from our sponsor.

"Sovereign Silver". Don't let the Authoritarian Statist FDA tell you what works. Listen to our happy customers who have been using colloidal silver to cheaply and effectively treat themselves for years without the fraudulent offerings of the crony capitalist Moochers.

BEFORE

AFTER

Heraclitusstudent says

chimp groups are far more likely to want the same limited natural resources because they do not specialize.

That's a random assertion. Humans specialize and were always at war since the dawn of mankind.

At the dawn of mankind, specialization was quite limited. Human beings were little different from chimps back then. As for "humans were always at war since the dawn of mankind," that's just silly: for almost every single human being, the time spent on actively engaged in a war has to be a tiny fraction of his/her life span. Even for a soldier serving in a war, he spends far more time collaborating with his comrades (making living arrangements) than the time spent on actively fighting against the enemy.

Heraclitusstudent says

War is the life of State.

You fail to tell us a period of time when there was no state, or no war. Humans always had some kind of leadership. And they always had war - whether between individuals, between gangs, between tribes, between kingdoms, or countries.

These are 2 unavoidable parts of the human condition.

How many hours in the past week did you engage in a war? or was molested by the government? I'd venture to guess, far less than the time you spent at peace and engaged in voluntary transactions with other human beings. There are always car crashes somewhere in the world throughout the day, week, month, year; yet, it would be silly to suggest the primary function of a car or even the fundamental function of a car is to crash into each other, instead of means of transportation.

Heraclitusstudent says

It is still silly though to ascribe the privation of refugees to market instead of properly laying the blame at the feet of the war and the regimes that cause the war.

It is even more silly to generalize and say all wars and all refugees are the result of the existence of governments.

Wars are obviously the results of governments waging them; as for refugees, in this particular case (and in majority cases), refugees are resulting from government policies, not natural disasters.

thunderlips11 says

Passports/Visa and human smugglers are largely the result of government imposing control on the free movement people.

I love the idea of people carrying disease, lunatics, and criminals passing borders freely. Anything less is tryannical evil.

LOL. The last time I checked, the government was engaged in the active transportation of diseased, lunatics and criminals into this country: Ebola patients, for example, welfare state attracting the incompetent in a more general case.. It's silly to suggest government would be more effective in preventing people from moving than whatever the individuals' incapacity can.

thunderlips11 says

First, we all know if somebody doesn't give consent, that's like Level III Body Armor against being violated. Nevermind many cultures don't recognize this or give a shit even if they give consent token recognition.

I supposed you missed Pat's post of underage marriage above. And of course...

Do you really think a society that largely condones the sale children into sexual slavery would be able to build a government that outlaws it? You do seem to believe government is some kind of God. Or are you suggesting you should pay the taxes to build such a God for those heathens?

My take on parents wanting to "sell" their kids is simply that:

1. Kids in such circumstances would be better off raised by adults more competent / resourceful than those parents. That seem to be the concensus among all cultures historically.

2. Those who buy children for sexual expoitation should be liable to criminal prosecution; they simply have not acquired the right of whatever they thought they bought. Whether such prosecution can be realistically carried out in any given society is highly dependent on the condition of the society itself.

thunderlips11 says

Government is a non-existent entity, just like alleged "God"; those who believe in "Government" are simply religious zealots who happen to follow a faith even older than "God," which was invented to give people some "recourse" against the almighty earthly God/Government. People worshiped power long before they worshiped God.

Try not paying your taxes. Whereas I can do a million things, including committing the "ultimate sin", without getting zapped by Jehovah.

LOL. If everyone who makes mistakes in their tax filings were in jail, there wouldn't be many people outside the jail. You do seem to view the government as if it were some sort of all-knowing and all-mighty God.

Reality says

LOL. The last time I checked, the government was engaged in the active transportation of diseased, lunatic and criminals into this country: Ebola patients, for example, welfare state attracting the incompetent in a more general case.. It's silly to suggest government would be more effective in preventing people from moving than whatever the individuals' incapacity can.

By that logic, because cops and prosecutors arrest and imprison or execute the wrong people sometimes, we'd be better off with no justice system whatsoever.

thunderlips11 says

LOL. The last time I checked, the government was engaged in the active transportation of diseased, lunatic and criminals into this country: Ebola patients, for example, welfare state attracting the incompetent in a more general case.. It's silly to suggest government would be more effective in preventing people from moving than whatever the individuals' incapacity can.

Wow, the government failed, either on purpose or deliberately, therefore the other 99% of time we can write off the whole system.

By that logic, because cops and prosecutors arrest and imprison or execute the wrong people, we'd be better off with no justice system whatsoever.

Public school is not synonymous with "education system." Tax-funded police and prosecutors do not have to be synonymous with "justice system."

Just like tax-funded public school monopoly is extremely inefficient and usually produce poor results, just like any other monopoly, tax-funded police/prosecution monopoly is likewise an inefficient way to run a "justice system." I'm afraid it is only a matter of time before even you realize that the monopolists are more interested in protecting themselves and their pensions than protecting you. Bureaucratic monopolies last about 60-80 years or so before they fall apart. We are fairly close to that mark for many police departments built in the post-WWII era.

Ah, you want the kids who can't afford school to work in the Cannery. Regardless of how smart they might be, if they might grow up to become the next Salk.

thunderlips11 says

Ah, you want the kids who can't afford school to work in the Cannery. Regardless of how smart they might be, if they might grow up to become the next Salk.

Nah, I just want kids to learn useful skills, instead of being brainwashed like in the soviet Russia into fanatics of the government-religion incapable of being productive members of society even when given the opportunity to move to a relatively free-market society.

Reality says

Nah, I just want kids to learn useful skills, instead of being brainwashed like in the soviet Russia into fanatics of the government-religion incapable of being productive members of society even when given the opportunity to move to a relatively free-market society.

Well, if the parents can't afford school, and there is no evil tyrannical public schools, what happens?

And don't give me donations bullshit. With no taxes, there's no financial incentive for a writeoff, and we have a whole 19th Capitalist England experience to look back upon (actual IRL history, not pontifications according to chalkboards and ideology) as evidence that Capitalists don't pay to educate most or all of the impoverished out of Altruism. A few token cases does not a solution make.

thunderlips11 says

Wealthy Sauds buying Syrian Girls as young as 10

It's all part of the Girls for Oil program. It's not human sex trafficking if the U.S. gets cheap oil for it.

thunderlips11 says

Well, if the parents can't afford school, and there is no evil tyrannical public schools, what happens?

Cheaper schools, learning centers using Khan Academy, no need to have $200k college debt in order to get a state license to teach.

You are acting like someone in North Korea or Leninist/Stalinist Russia asking wouldn't people starve if the government didn't distribute food to people. LOL, it is the government centralized food distribution that actually led to millions of people starving to deaths! Likewise, it is the government centralized waste in the form of "public education" that is leading to millions of kids "graduating" public schools while still illiterate.

And don't give me donations bullshit. With no taxes, there's no financial incentive for a writeoff, and we have a whole 19th Capitalist England experience to look back upon (actual IRL history, not pontifications according to chalkboards and ideology) as evidence that Capitalists don't pay to educate most or all of the impoverished out of Altruism. A few token cases does not a solution make.

So I guess you never made charitable donations in your life either, just like most advocates of taxation and welfare: your ilk are selfish cheap skates projecting your own parsimoniousness onto others. Since when is tax write-off a major incentive for run-of-the-mill everyday charitable donations? People make those routine donations because they truly believe the cause. In any case, with the state monopoly out of the way, the cost of education can become so low that most families would be able to afford it. Those who can not afford it will be helped by donations and supervision: doing away with the phenomenon of bad students dragging down the whole class.

Families who sell daughters into prostitution will not take them back if they are arrested or returned to them.

More assholes who shouldn't have reproduced in the first place.

No wonder there are so many Jihadis. All the rich Sheiks have 4+ wives each. What is the common young man do, except to be a martyr and get 72 virgins in the afterlife??

Reality says

You are acting like someone in North Korea or Leninist/Stalinist Russia

Or in places like Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Britain, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Germany, and 90% of the world etc. etc. where public schools exist.

Isn't it interesting the places where public education is limited or non-existent, they aren't full of Libertarian Neckbeards in Fedoras reading Heinlein while waiting for their private space company to take them on a tour of the Outer Planets?

But that they tend to be actual hellholes where people fight over the last rotten potato?

Funny how places where Libertarian ideology is practiced, like Somalia, it looks more like "the Road" and a lot less like "Star Trek".

On the contrary. Western Europe and North America had even higher relative standard of living compared to the rest of the world before they embraced socialism in the mid-20th century.

Cuba did not have mandatory public education under Batista, and its living standards was fairly close to that of Florida before 1960's Castro take-over. Castro instituted universal mandatory public education, along with universal healthcare and other usual socialist agenda that you love so much, the result is that after half a century, the average Cuban makes less than $1 a day!

As for Somalia, during the period when they did not have a central government, the standards of living in that country improved faster than all the previous decades since its founding/independence. The fact that roads and extensive phone networks were built and rapidly expanded during that period proves that roads and infrastructure do not need government to build. That was all while governments like those in North Korea and Cuba banned cellphones and internet.

Reality says

higher relative standard of living compared to the rest of the world before they embraced socialism in the mid-20th century.

Hmmm, how many independent countries were there in 1950 versus today?

There were 60 members of the UN in 1950. By 1970 there were 127, more than twice as many. Today, there are 193, more than 3 times as many.

"I see what you did there."

The greatest improvement in the standard of living, from literacy to college graduation to material wealth like TVs, Fridges, and Cars, happened 1945-1975 under Social Democracy in the Western World when people who spout neoliberal policies today were considered extremists in the basement of the university. Bar none.

thunderlips11 says

higher relative standard of living compared to the rest of the world before they embraced socialism in the mid-20th century.

Hmmm, how many independent countries were there in 1950 versus today?

The population in Asia, Africa and South America were there regardless whether the countries were independent or not. What's funny is that people in most colonies had faster living standards improvement under colonialism than after their independence anyway.

The greatest improvement in the standard of living, from literacy to college graduation to material wealth like TVs, Fridges, and Cars, happened 1945-1975 under Social Democracy in the Western World when people who spout neoliberal policies today were considered extremists in the basement of the university. Bar none.

Nonsense. Literacy rate in the late 19th century America was higher than it is today. You are showing your utter ignorance and economic illiteracy when you equate specific technology to material wealth. Technology products is simply time/occasion-dependent. Household wealth should be measured by how many days/months of cost of living the household has in savings.

thunderlips11 says

higher relative standard of living compared to the rest of the world before they embraced socialism in the mid-20th century.

Hmmm, how many independent countries were there in 1950 versus today?

There were 60 members of the UN in 1950. By 1970 there were 127, more than twice as many. Today, there are 193, more than 3 times as many.

What does country count have to do with anything? A western European made 10x to 100x as much income as a native in Africa and Asia in the 19th century. Today, the ratio is in the single-digits in most cases, and at near parity or even fallen behind vis some Asian countries.

Reality says

Literacy rate in the late 19th century America was higher than it is today.

Bwhahahah. You're telling me the typical Private or Corporal serving an the Alabama Regiment in the Confederate Army was more likely to be literate than an 18-year old today, from Alabama?

Reality says

What does country count have to do with anything?

When you're comparing RELATIVE standards of living, it has EVERYTHING to do with it. Also, put up the data, along with sourcing that the standard of living is a measurement across the entire Empire, and not just in the mother country.

I really doubt the British Raj kept accurate econometrics of Indian Sharecroppers, and really really doubt the Home Office conflated that with domestic numbers.

thunderlips11 says

Literacy rate in the late 19th century America was higher than it is today.

Bwhahahah. You're telling me the typical Private or Corporal serving an the Alabama Regiment in the Confederate Army was more likely to be literate than an 18-year old today, from Alabama?

I'm starting to have doubts about your literacy. The ACW took place in mid-19th century, not late 19th century. In any case, American literacy rate was very high in the 19th century. Have you seen some of the middle school tests from 19th century? Those are college level maths by today's standards.

thunderlips11 says

What does country count have to do with anything?

When you're comparing RELATIVE standards of living, it has EVERYTHING to do with it. Also, put up the data.

Nonsense. The calculation of relative standards of living of European vs. people in Africa, Asia and South America is not affected by whether Austro-Hungary is split into half a dozen countries or whether Yugoslavia is counted as one country or again half a dozen of countries, or whether India let's Britain handle its external affairs.

As for data, you can find that in today's per capita GDP data, vs. 19th century colonial records. The relative income gap was much greater back then than today. The gap got wide after the former colonies embraced socialism in the 1960's. The gap narrowed rapidly since the 1980's and 1990's after the major 3rd world countries embraced market economy while the Europeans let socialism run amuck.

Reality says

As for data, you can find that in today's per capita GDP data, vs. 19th century colonial records. The relative income gap was much greater back then than today. The gap got wide after the former colonies embraced socialism in the 1960's. The gap narrowed rapidly since the 1980's and 1990's after the major 3rd world countries embraced market economy while the Europeans let socialism run amuck.

Do you have it or know where to find it, or are you just quoting some Tom Woods assertion?

Reality says

Nonsense. The calculation of relative standards of living of European vs. people in Africa, Asia and South America is not affected by whether Austro-Hungary is split into half a dozen countries or whether Yugoslavia is counted as one country or again half a dozen of countries, or whether India let's Britain handle its external affairs.

Sure it is. Austria without Bosnia or Serbia is going to look much better without those possessions. To say nothing of Britain reporting without India, but without India reporting at all.

Let's see some of these numbers instead of hearing about them second hand from your reading of Tom Woods. I very much doubt that when comparing their standards of living, Britain and France added in all their impoverished people from their overseas possessions.

Case in point. Had these numbers been compiled for the Entire British Empire, the real GDP per capita of Britain would have skyrocketed in 1948 by reflecting the higher GDP of the Home Countries wasn't spread out over the entire population of India as well.

Reality says

Have you seen some of the middle school tests from 19th century? Those are college level maths by today's standards.

Nice to know that all the child laborers in the Coal Mines were more highly literate and numerate than children of the same age in public school of today. Of course I don't believe that for a nanosecond. And not to nitpick, but math comprehension isn't literacy, it's numeracy.

Reality says

The ACW took place in mid-19th century, not late 19th century.

1965 is in the second half of the 19th Century. Since we didn't define "Early, Mid, and Late", it is perfectly reasonable to assume "late 19th Century" is the second half. 65 is about 2/3 of 100.

But to humor you, what happened between 1865 and 1885, mere 20 years, less time between each other than between now and the end of the USSR or the first Marilyn Manson album, that changed Wilbur Clanton the Hick from Alabama from being barely able to scratch his name, to Wilbur Jr., also a hick from Alabama, being able to write "It was at this time, when I had just finished calculating the altitude of Formalhaut according to Dr. Halley's methodology, when I found myself a mite peckish."

To believe you, we'd have to think that some Black Sharecropper of 1890 or some White Coal Mining kid from 1890 would be MORE literate and MORE numerate than their descendants in 2010. Assuming the former even completed or attended Middle School.