patrick.net

wow, heavy question.

i have no doubt that it would be a heavy burden for a child of either gender to have a single gay father. if the father didn't think so too, he would not have asked the question.

pretty sure it would be much worse for a boy though, just because his status among peer boys will always be lower than those with normal parents. you can argue it "should not" be that way, but then you condemn the boy to great suffering simply by demanding that the world be other than it is while he suffers.

Hmm, I have heard of sexed semen for dairy cattle, but I guess never heard of sexed embryos. But I guess in dairy cows you artificially inseminate the cows-pre embryo-is that the stage just after fertilization and before it becomes an embryo?

wow, heavy question.

i have no doubt that it would be a heavy burden for a child of either gender to have a single gay father. if the father didn't think so too, he would not have asked the question.

pretty sure it would be much worse for a boy though, just because his status among peer boys will always be lower than those with normal parents. you can argue it "should not" be that way, but then you condemn the boy to great suffering simply by demanding that the world be other than it is while he suffers.

It was a heavy question. I've been thinking about it all day. I don't want to tell him it doesn't matter because of a misguided need to be politically correct. My gut tells me that girls would generally handle it better because they mature earlier... they also, by nature, tend to talk about their feelings more... so if they have questions they are more likely to ask them rather than let questions fester...

So tonight, it was just me and my son (age 11). I asked him. How would you feel if daddy were gay? He said, "I'd love him no matter what. I know that sounds corny, but it's how I would feel." I asked him what he would say if a kid at school said something like, "Your dad is gay. You're probably gay, too." His exact words were priceless. He said, "you don't know what the hell you are talking about."

So now I'm wondering if I underestimated how boys would process this. Which is why I thought I'd check in at the Patnet man-cave.

I don't think it matters. I have had gay roommates, women roommates-it does not matter. Kids and adult bullies will find something to pick on-if not a gay father, then a fat mother.

I wish I could find a New England Journal or JAMA study on this....

turtledove says

I wish I could find a New England Journal or JAMA study on this....

ah yes indeed. i believe it was kitzmiller who published "glory hole dads, striking the deviant/parenthood balance" back in 2011. a stunning piece.

provocative. textured. vulnerable. triumphant.

It seems to me because of the child's frame of reference he would not know any comparison. Until it is brought up. But these days is that an issue?

Considering the sensitive nature of this subject I would defer to the Wogster's profound advise.

Lots of gay dads around. One would think that girls would be more accepting, but I don't think that is a fair generalization.

I suppose it would depend on whether you would predict that society becomes generally less or more stigmatizing in the next couple of decades. The trend seems to be less.

Sons don't identify why their fathers. They struggle against them until they win.

As long as he is not going to retreat whining after breaking a nail, he'll be fine.

I'm assuming he doesn't get to pick the sex of the embryo, does he?

My third thought is that not having a mother will be much bigger trauma than having a gay dad.

Heraclitusstudent says

I'm assuming he doesn't get to pick the sex of the embryo, does he?

Yes... He can pick which ones get transferred to the surrogate. That is why he asked the question he asked.

So after they are fertilized, they grow to day three, at which point they are biopsied for testing. They are then put back to continue growing to day five, at which point the PGS results are back. The ones with genetic errors are discarded. From what's left, he may decide whether to transfer one or two, as well as which sex. The chosen embryo or embryos are transferred to the surrogate on day five.

Ceffer says

suppose it would depend on whether you would predict that society becomes generally less or more stigmatizing in the next couple of decades. The trend seems to be less.

I agree. Though the trend is happening in some parts of the world much faster than others.

turtledove says

Do you think that a male or female child would be inherently better equipped to handle this kind of thing?

Coincidentally, I know someone who is planning to do that, and he says he would prefer to have a son. I know single women who have undertaken solo parenthood, and they tend to have daughters.

I have not questioned why, but I can think of some possible reasons why sex would count more than sexual orientation. As a practical matter, public bathrooms and other facilities and events tend to be segregated male vs female, so it might help if they can both use the same without causing unwanted attention. It might also help to have more in common, and thus potentially a better chance at forming a stronger bond for the foundation of a confident personality. For example, in terms of advice, the dad has navigated successfully through many of the same challenges that a son will face, but might have less familiarity and credibility with the issues facing a daughter. Conversely, probably every child has had occasion to feel embarrassed by parental behavior or attributes, and yet most survive.

Those are only guesses though. Single parents survive either way, and usually they don't get a choice in the matter.

For a single dad, I hope he has a well considered plan and sufficient resources to hire enough help. It does take a village to raise a child.

rando says

status...will always be lower...would be a heavy burden for a child

Patrick, did you consider that issue when deciding whether to remain a tenant or become a homeowner? Renting tends to indicate lower status, so I would be curious to hear your views on how it affects children. Also, in any community, half the households have income below the median; I won't ask the circumstances of individual PatNetters, but Palo Alto sets a high bar. Some parents have very high status (e.g. Mr. & Mrs. Steve Jobs), but most parents manage somehow, and nobody gets a perfect life anyway. California class consciousness bears little resemblance to Jane Austen's England.

Status among kids depends on many factors: looks, money, social skills, having good friends and fashionable accoutrements. For boys, athletic prowess counts for a lot. If a son is a handsome and talented lacrosse player, or a daughter is a gorgeous cheerleader, the other kids are probably not going to waste a lot of time fretting about the parent(s)' "status" being higher or lower, especially in the eyes of some contrarian who hasn't even made a billion dollars flipping shacks.

He asked me if I thought that a male or female child would be better able to handle having a single, gay father.

-------------

Thats fucked up.

The guy knows it will be a hard experience, filled with suffering, yet he's selfish enough to go through with it anyways.

Tell that ASSHOLE to adopt!

errc says

The guy knows it will be a hard experience, filled with suffering, yet he's selfish enough to go through with it anyways.

Tell that ASSHOLE to adopt!

Huh, why should he adopt. A child is a child-so it is ok for an adopted child to be filled with suffering?? When I lived in Los Angeles, there are the rabid pet adopting advocates who scream bloody murder if you try and buy a purebred pet. They scream that by doing so you have sentenced a dog in the shelter to death and the more rabid nuts will call you a murderer.

I am seeing the far lefties start mouthing the same thing about kids nowadays-there are millions of starving kids-adopt one, the world does not need one more human.

There is something about watching your own genes pass on, to see your family's characteristics in the kids. more power to the dude.

The only benefit here of adopting is to help a child in need. This is not really that different than two parents having a child instead of adopting. The only difference, is that he is getting his genetic material combined with someone who he is less connected to than a spouse.

I think other than the challenges of being a single parent (I'd never do it), the main issue is how other children are going to act. It's hard to know what the playground is like these days for someone like myself who is far removed from it. In my childhood days, boys were much more likely to tease other boys about this, but I'm not sure that is still the case.

Do boys or girls handle it better?

I've had a few girlfriends handle it well, but also a few fumblers. Guys have a lot more experience handling it, and so that is a rather unfair comparison.

More than half of all children are being raised in households that are results of divorce or not married to begin with. So being teased for having only one parent is not going to be a problem. Gay acceptance is taking place very rapidly among the young generation nowadays, so that is not going to be a problem either.

However, in most cases, the legally non-resident parent still provides substantial time and resources for the children (despite the whinings from the "heroic single mothers"). A single parent raising a child all by him/herself without any money or time from the other parent requires the single parent to be much better prepared. If he makes less than $100k/yr, it can be quite a financial burden (as he would have no ex to call on for watching the kid when he has business commitment). If he makes substantially more than $100k/yr, raising a surrogate child of his own can be less expensive than raising a child with a wife or ex, especially if a divorce has to take place to convert the wife into an ex, always a potential event for a rich man married to a "strong and independent" woman potentially bored of domesticity; her crabby peers will always try to make her feel bad for staying with the husband; it's the same phenomenon as people spending too much time on Facebook get depressed: the grass is always greener on the other side! Is the surrogate mother overseas / entirely uninvolved in the future or a candidate that can be "bribed" into helping taking care of her own child in the first couple years after giving up her right to the child at birth? Mother's milk is immunologically and nutritionally better than any substitute we know of up to this point.

Reality says

If he makes substantially more than $100k/yr, raising a surrogate child of his own can be less expensive than raising a child with a wife or ex

He makes substantially more than $100k/year. He's pretty wealthy in his own right and comes from a rich family to boot. So, he would be pretty screwed if he ever marries and then divorces.

From a manpower standpoint, he has a large family who will be very involved.... and he plans "to hire a nanny or two."

curious2 says

public bathrooms and other facilities and events tend to be segregated male vs female, so it might help if they can both use the same without causing unwanted attention.

That is a very good point. When my son was about seven, he wouldn't want to go into the ladies room with me. We had a few little arguments about it.

turtledove says

Yes... He can pick which ones get transferred to the surrogate. That is why he asked the question he asked.

So after they are fertilized, they grow to day three, at which point they are biopsied for testing. They are then put back to continue growing to day five, at which point the PGS results are back. The ones with genetic errors are discarded. From what's left, he may decide whether to transfer one or two, as well as which sex. The chosen embryo or embryos are transferred to the surrogate on day five.

Isn't that unethical?
I mean if he can choose the sex, why not the size? The hair color? The intelligence?
Sounds like Gattaca.

turtledove says

Reality says

If he makes substantially more than $100k/yr, raising a surrogate child of his own can be less expensive than raising a child with a wife or ex

He makes substantially more than $100k/year. He's pretty wealthy in his own right and comes from a rich family to boot. So, he would be pretty screwed if he ever marries and then divorces.

From a manpower standpoint, he has a large family who will be very involved.... and he plans "to hire a nanny or two."

Then he's all set. Have a son first, then after a couple years, have a daughter. The son will learn to be an alpha male from young age and learn how to socialize with women as the "older bro" (besides socializing with and learning from the gay dad; some gay men can be very alpha red pill, and he seems to be one, at least from how he approaches the baby issue given his own circumstances), and the daughter will be free to enjoy her feminine nature under the protection of both the dad and the elder brother.

Heraclitusstudent says

I mean if he can choose the sex, why not the size? The hair color? The intelligence?

What do you think women are doing between the ages of 15 and 30? Choosing size, intelligence and other characteristics for their offspring is precisely what they do, full time! It's called her dating preference! LOL.

BTW, this is not an endorsement for gender selective abortion per se, but in his case, he will be looking at a bunch of fertilized eggs, most of which will be frozen anyway, but only 1 or 2 to be implanted into the surrogate mother. So choosing is already a given anyway.

Trick question they guy obviously doesn't give a rip. He just wants in on his 11 minutes of History.

turtledove says

I have a single, gay male patient

Well he may be technically single, but since males are by nature promiscuous there will be a stream of "uncles" in and out of his and his child's life, creating confusion, moved in within a month or two after meeting with no knowledge of criminal history or tendencies toward pedophilia, more than likely lots of fighting after the new wears off. That's how gay relationships are not equal to heterosexual ones in that the male's natural tendencies are satisfied by the female partner. In gay relationships you have two people, both of whom are promiscuous and likely to bring drama (always present in gays anyway) and danger to their affairs.

Tenpoundbass says

Trick question they guy obviously doesn't give a rip. He just wants in on his 11 minutes of History

Probably the most likely scenario of all, except I'm going to grant him 15 minutes.

P N Dr Lo R says

That's how gay relationships are....

Please, tell us all about your extensive experience in the field. Have you and Forthood been enduring some Brokeback troubles lately? I haven't seen you mention having a spouse or children, though your comments do seem to show some of the damage that religion can inflict on children.

Heraclitusstudent says

I mean if he can choose the sex, why not the size?

In America, sex selection has not caused any notable problems and thus doesn't raise issues that could seriously be considered unethical, largely because we don't have a gender imbalance at the population level. In China or India, the story might be different, as girls have reportedly been aborted (or killed after being born) and the population is becoming skewed towards males. Those countries will either (a) import many brides, (b) learn to love male homosexuality, or (c) risk the religious violence that plagues the Arab Muslim countries (where polygamy creates a similar imbalance). In those countries, exacerbating a gender imbalance might be unethical, while ameliorating it might be ethical; in America, since we don't have an imbalance, it makes no difference.

P N Dr Lo R says

Probably the most likely scenario of all, except I'm going to grant him 15 minutes.

Granted just don't make me to bake nobody a cake, I hate that.

No benefit in passing on the aids virus to a small helpless defenseless child.
Adopt.
lostand confused says

There is something about watching your own genes pass on, to see your family's characteristics in the kids. more power to the dude.

why not plant em all in that Octomom and pick from the litter at 8 weeks when you have a better idea of the various growth patterns?

Reality says

BTW, this is not an endorsement for gender selective abortion per se, but in his case, he will be looking at a bunch of fertilized eggs, most of which will be frozen anyway, but only 1 or 2 to be implanted into the surrogate mother. So choosing is already a given anyway.

I thought slavery was dead...

turtledove says

I have a single, gay male

curious2 says

Please, tell us all about your extensive experience in the field

You don't have to have experience, it's common knowledge, they flaunt it around all the time.

P N Dr Lo R says

knowledge

results from experience and reading actual data, not mythology and stereotypes. Please tell us about your experience and direct observations. Otherwise, your know-nothing doctrine substitutes ignorant stereotypes for knowledge. I intended my question seriously: I have been curious for some time about the fervent closeted commenters who have no children of their own but insist they know all about how it should be done.

Some statistical arguments may not apply in his case. He makes substantially more than double what an average husband-wife family makes, the usual perils of single parenthood due to lack of resources simply do not apply in this case. Male-female pair-bonding being statistically advantageous to children is due to resources available in such a partnership being nearly double the single parent. That statistical norm does not apply when we already have apriori knowledge about this specific case where he alone is already capable of providing for the children better than what most husband-wife teams can.

It's relatively safe to assume that kids are not going to be exposed to sex, straight or gay, at young age. Parents dating other people is becoming the majority situation as the institution of marriage is breaking down under current divorce court laws. The real unique situation in this case is the absence of mother. For a boy, never having experienced a self-sacrificing female as the first relationship with female may well be a good thing! When he grows up, he will not expect women to be self-sacrificing towards him and then get disappointed, like most young men have to live through.

Heraclitusstudent says

Isn't that unethical?

I mean if he can choose the sex, why not the size? The hair color? The intelligence?

You would not be able to choose size, hair color, or intelligence. PGS basically tells you that the chromosomes are correct in number... 46xx, 46xy. It tells you that all the books are on the shelf and that those books are in the correct order with no books stuck together. It cannot read the pages of the books.

PGD (pre-implantation genetic diagnosis), on the other hand, is where you build a probe that's looking for something specific. However, this is limited to genetic diseases (like sickle cell or tay sach's, for example). I am unaware of anyone who has built a probe for things like hair color. Perhaps it will happen in the future...

SoftShell says

No benefit in passing on the aids virus to a small helpless defenseless child.

Adopt.

First of all... that would never happen at a clinic in this country. The FDA has very specific rules about screening labs. As far as the FDA is concerned, every bit of this is treated with the same scrutiny as tissue donation. No one is accidentally going to give AIDS to anyone.

That said, even if a person is HIV positive, there are ways that the sperm is handled that keeps every party safe. Remember, there are very strict guidelines of what can be brought into the lab. Obviously, it's for the protection of the surrogate and child, but it's also for the protection of every other embryo currently in residence at that lab.

Just because a person has HIV doesn't mean he/she cannot or should not have a child. HIV is hardly the death sentence it was in past decades. If managed, their life expectancies are looking really good. There is no reason that an HIV positive person can't know the joys of parenthood.

SoftShell's comments are intended merely as bait:

SoftShell says

i just wanted to get a rise outta you, and I did.
my post was successful for it's intended purpose. hehehe...
now go ahead and feel free to bash me, i'm off to rebait my line...

What others would call trolling, SoftShell likens to fishing.

So my roommate in my senior year of college was gay. We got along really well, even took a class together, drank excessively together, and functioned well for the situation.
I never knew he was gay.
Maybe that says something about me and my absolutely BROKE gaydar.
I mean he was a male model who didn't ever seem to have a girlfriend though girls seemed to always hang around him.
But I digress... The point is that having connected with him (on Facebook yay) once again I discovered he was very very gay, had a boyfriend and everything, did the pride parades and all.
And he has a kid with a "friend" who happens to be a woman. The kid is a boy, and he seems to be an involved parent, and on good terms with his son's mother. Maybe she wasn't the marrying type either, so an arrangement with a friend to coparent a child was a preferable situation to going it alone as a single mother. Honestly, I know many single parents with divorces in their histories who have it much worse than this never-together pair of opposite sex friends. They are also co parenting, but with latent animosity and hard feelings towards their ex spouses. My roommate's kid has the benefit of two parents AND the benefit of parents who like each other , even if they're not lovers or spouses. I imagine that boy will do just fine, especially if he stays with the same male partner. I hope it works out, for the kid's sake, same as I hope my married friends can hang on to their marriages for the sake of their kids and home life.

curious2 says

I have been curious for some time

You still are.

Reality says

It's relatively safe to assume that kids are not going to be exposed to sex, straight or gay, at young age

Not a safe assumption at all. Both straight and gay single parents routinely have a parade of "aunts" and "uncles" about whom they know nothing shacking up with them, exposing their children and themselves to who knows what in this day and time--not an insignificant number of them wind up on the autopsy table.

I would rather have a gay parent than a fanatically religious parent any day.