patrick.net

One could make a really effective argument on how marriages causes poverty.

P N Dr Lo R says

The Poverty Cure: Get Married

Very insightful article, P N Dr. Thanks for posting.
We have a very serious problem of young Black men committing disproportionately more crime than the rest of the population. We need to get to the bottom of this, and stop it. Those claiming discrimination only end up preventing a solution, which in turn ends up hurting the Black population the most. We need Black leaders like Obama paving the way to help find a solution, and stop foolish Black leaders like Jackson and Sharpton from having a say in any potential solution.
Nobody wants or needs this problem.

Strategist says

We need Black leaders like Obama

Oxymoron.

All of these stats have to be adjusted for income. There is a huge economic penalty for getting married. For higher income couples, the penalty comes in the form of higher taxes. For lower income couples it comes in the form of fewer benefits. For higher income people, they generally suck it up and take the penalty. But, if I were on the lower income side, and really struggling to provide for a baby, it would be tempting to do the whole shack up, get section 8, welfare, snap, earned income, or whatever other benefits I could get. When two people making bottom rung salaries can't provide a decent life for a family, they will try to figure out ways of making it work.

It really is ridiculous for the gov't to state that they favor marriage for stability sake and then penalize the fuck out of married people. If they want to encourage marriage so that they can take in more taxes and pay out less benes, that makes sense.

YesYNot says

When two people making bottom rung salaries can't provide a decent life for a family

they need to improve their skills so that they can provide adequately.

P N Dr Lo R says

they need to improve their skills so that they can provide adequately.

My thoughts exactly. So they are at the lower rung of the ladder ... NOW. And they can't find training because why? Just because they are on the lower rung of the ladder does NOT mean that they need to stay there. The welfare, section 8, snap, earned income - they are meant to help you the ladder, not stay down there.

P N Dr Lo R says

they need to improve their skills so that they can provide adequately.

Apparently, the training is too hard to come by or the incentive is not there. I'd guess that your solution would be to take away the government safety nets and provide the incentive through taking food, shelter, and health care away from them.

YesYNot says

I'd guess that your solution would be to take away the government safety nets and provide the incentive through taking food, shelter, and health care away from them.

In a word, yes--it has seemed to work in the past when people didn't seek work until every cent of unemployment had been exhausted after numerous extensions.

I'm reading a book by Thomas Sowell "Wealth, Poverty and Politics" in which he quotes Dr. Theodore Dalrymple in his book "Life at the Bottom: The World View that Creates the Underclass". Anthony Daniels, whose pen name is Dalrymple, is a retired prison psychiatrist in London and has had close observations of the underclass for the past 40 years. He makes the point that for decades dating back to the 19th century, England was one of the safest countries in the world--there were 12 armed robberies in London in 1954. This all changed from the late 50's on as there was a societal retrogression that involved single parenthood, resistance to education, growing drug culture and general hooliganism and violence until there were 1,400 armed robberies in 1981 London and 1,600 in 1991--during an era of stringent gun control and social welfare spending. Sowell points out that in the 50's violent crime was so low in this country as to not even be noteworthy. However, a simultaneous degrading of society occured in this country following the 50's with the same results: single parenthood, rejection of education and refusal of blacks to use standard English, drug culture and violence subsidized by welfare. This has nothing to do with the difficulty or inconvenience of acquiring skills but rather the deliberate choosing of the ghetto culture. This upheaval that happened 50 years ago and seemed so strange and frightening has been become the mainstream culture of today. As some have said, "the counterculture won", and yet millions still regret the results.

mmmarvel says

P N Dr Lo R says

they need to improve their skills so that they can provide adequately.

My thoughts exactly. So they are at the lower rung of the ladder ... NOW. And they can't find training because why? Just because they are on the lower rung of the ladder does NOT mean that they need to stay there.

People with skills get more income because they are rare. So every loser out there got skills, the wages for skilled people would collapse to where these people are now.

In other words, their wage just reflects where they rank in capacity to learn compared to other people.

And you can't fix that by learning more capacity to learn. That's not the way it works.
So yes, they will stay there.

I would say black women, if you are going to be a single parent, do yourself a favor and visit a sperm bank, choose a white donor.
At least discrimination will be less.
Not very morally appealing maybe, but practical.

Heraclitusstudent says

People with skills get more income because they are rare. So every loser out there got skills, the wages for skilled people would collapse to where these people are now.

In other words, their wage just reflects where they rank in capacity to learn compared to other people.

And you can't fix that by learning more capacity to learn. That's not the way it works.

So yes, they will stay there.

Capacity to learn, and willingness to learn, and the ability to apply the knowledge they learn to profitable pursuits. The last step is how wealth is created in a society.

So it is not a zero-sum game.

Ironman says

there is more than one father between them

Her legs?

Reality says

to apply the knowledge they learn to profitable pursuits. The last step is how wealth is created in a society

A concept lost on many in our society. I expect it never occurs to that guy who is a proponent of the guaranteed basic income or whatever it's called--he thinks wealth exists in a fixed quantity and doesn't have to be produced by any effort.

P N Dr Lo R says

A concept lost on many in our society. I expect it never occurs to that guy who is a proponent of the guaranteed basic income or whatever it's called--he thinks wealth exists in a fixed quantity and doesn't have to be produced by any effort.

You totally misunderstood the problem of basic income.

If we get into a situation where we are so efficient that a fraction of the population can produce food, clothes, cars, etc... basically everything one needs, then the rest of the population becomes useless, doesn't earn money or collapses the labor market trying to work, and as a result doesn't participate in consumption.

The result is that, in spite of being technically able to produce everything everyone needs, we just write off a large part of the population and consign them to poverty. This is bad not only for the poor, this shrinks the overall pie. And this is not because we are not efficient enough on production side, or because people are unable to work for low wages. It's the exact opposite reasons: because we produce increasingly efficiently, because people work for low wages or are unemployed, and because as a result we reduced consumption.

So no I don't think it's a zero-sum game, but I do believe we reached the point where everything you propose in fact shrinks the pie, rather than increase it.

Heraclitusstudent says

It's the exact opposite reasons: because we produce increasingly efficiently, because people work for low wages or are unemployed, and because as a result we reduced

Well that is a good point--it's like the often quoted Chinese proverb "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime". But what happens when there are no more fish, as there is a dearth of good manufacturing jobs in our country which used to be the source of jobs for many high school graduates. If it did come down to such a Darconian scenario, those who can't support themselves shouldn't be left flat on their backs. But there is a difference between people who are trying and those who adopt the free-loader ghetto culture who wouldn't work or improve themselves if they had the chance and I think that should be taken into consideration.

I talked with a fellow today who is Hispanic (not that it makes a difference) who has only a high school diploma and works for a fire alarm company (think industrial, not home version). He started with the company as a helper making $9.00 an hour. He worked his way up and has taken classes (that the company paid for) and gotten certifications (that the company paid for) and is now making just south of $30.00 an hour. He has a couple more certifications that he going for and his pay will raise accordingly. Get off your rear end and go find a job and pursue it.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/OVdwcivRyhI

Ironman says

Heraclitusstudent says

I would say black women, if you are going to be a single parent, do yourself a favor and visit a sperm bank, choose a white donor.

I doubt in most cases the black women are getting pregnant by choice and by planning for it. Most got pregnant because they just spread their legs for whoever... That's why, when you see a single black woman with multiple kids, there is more than one father between them.

LOL. Visiting a sperm bank to get pregnant costs money. Spreading your legs comes with free dinner.

mmmarvel says

I talked with a fellow today who is Hispanic (not that it makes a difference) who has only a high school diploma and works for a fire alarm company (think industrial, not home version). He started with the company as a helper making $9.00 an hour. He worked his way up and has taken classes (that the company paid for) and gotten certifications (that the company paid for) and is now making just south of $30.00 an hour. He has a couple more certifications that he going for and his pay will raise accordingly. Get off your rear end and go find a job and pursue it.

He deserves a raise. Employers are always willing to pay more for quality people, but not for the useless bums and union thugs.

Another point that Sowell makes so well is that both slavery and poverty have been the norm for the majority of human existence--poverty is automatic, wealth and freedom are the exceptions. If you take the freedoms and wealth we've had in this country, that some people hate so much, for the past 200 years or even in the older realms of the West, compared to the continuum of millions of years of history, it would be so small it wouldn't even be visible to the naked eye. Regardless of what kind or how much of a safety net there is, wealth still has to be produced to provide it, it doesn't just exist in the ether.

Hard work, is about the least likely way to get you anywhere in this country.

Back in my Engineering undergrad days, I had roomie who was MBA. His classmates were over all the time, I got to know all those fuckers, and their typical morning, and afternoon, was lounging around in bathrobes shooting the shit. Work? Forget it, that's for suckers.

Y'all usually have a story about the "friend" who flogged themself into a higher class than they started. However, in America, the odds are starkly against it. Most people die in the same bracket they were born in, and blaming as lazy the ones who didn't become billionaires is just elitist "there's a natural order to things". Anyone who isn't Bill Gates, well OBVIOUSLY they didn't work hard enough.

Ironman says

Why does in NOT surprise me that a flaming left wing liberal posted that?

It's a fact.

Who works harder?

These folks?

Or this guy who can take the afternoon off for this?

Don't see too many hard-working laborers who need a weight-loss program.

That BS about hard work = riches, is propaganda to keep the hamsters on their wheels.

Vicente says

Hard work, is about the least likely way to get you anywhere in this country.

Yup and without it you have ZERO chance...

Vicente says

That BS about hard work = riches, is propaganda to keep the hamsters on their wheels.

Yep, if hard work was the path to riches, Mexican Lettuce Pickers and Mississippi Ditch Diggers and your Nursing Home buttwiper would be driving Cadillacs.

indigenous says

Yup and without it you have ZERO chance...

Affluenza, look it up. It now has court precedent which should be horrifying to self-proclaimed egalitarian GOP, but gets a yawn.

Hard work is a weak factor. Strong factors? Growing up rich enough to afford best educational opportunities, and handouts from Mummy & Daddy. Donald Trump didn't start from living in the ghetto, his daddy gave him a million dollars.

Ironman says

What flavor of kool-aid do you actually drink?

I like REALITY flavor. Fantasy gives me gas.

Vicente says

Growing up rich enough to afford best educational opportunities, and handouts from Mummy & Daddy

What's wrong with that? Since no one has a say about when or to whom they are born, what would be the alternative in a free country? No one can anticipate all the variables in even one single life, let alone some 300 million--one may be born into wealth, then it be lost before they reach their majority.

Vicente says

Hard work is a weak factor.

I didn't say it the only factor dumb ass, but it sure as fuck is the most important factor.

You are saying that the Horatio Algers story is dead I have been in business too long at witnessed way too many people who contradict your skepticism, or is it an excuse not to try?

40% Of The Largest U.S. Companies Founded by Immigrants or Their Children

Immigrants were key in the founding of Proctor & Gamble in 1837, Pfizer in 1849 and U.S. Steel in 1901– as well as more recently Ebay, Google and Brightstar.

Not to mention the 25% of high tech companies founded between 1995 and 2005 that had at least one immigrant founder. 75% of the companies funded by American venture capital had “one core foreign born team member such as CEO,CTO or VP of Engineering,” says a report titled “Not Coming to America, Why the U.S. is Falling Behind in the Global Race for Talent.” It was published by The Partnership for a New American Economy in May, 2012. In fact, I call Andrew Grove, a Hungarian Jewish immigrant a founder of Intel along with his two partners, Robert Noyce and Gordon Moore. All three left Fairchild Industries to found Intel, and Grove, the best known of the three, was CEO from day one. But, for some reason Intel does not consider him a founder.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertlenzner/2013/04/25/40-largest-u-s-companies-founded-by-immigrants-or-their-children/

indigenous says

You are saying that the Horatio Algers story is dead I have been in business too long at witnessed way too many people who contradict your skepticism, or is it an excuse not to try?

No, but it's not the dominant factor that you imagine.

You REMEMBER the Horatio Alger successes, they fit your narrative. You don't remember prominently, the dozens of other "hard workers" who ended their lives at the same station they started in, if not lower.

I have one particular relative who likes to imagine he's all bootstrappy because he wound up at Goldman Sachs and has a big house. Much like Donald Trump, he chooses to play down the fact that his dad was in finance and real estate, and could afford to send him to college, and indulge him going off to be in the Olympics. He views his hard work and Olympic success personally as the entire reason he's rich now. However if he'd had to pay the bills, or quit high school to get a job, none of that would have happened.

And for a great many "immigrant success" story, they play down the fact that their parents and relatives sacrificed to give them a leg up. "Oh no, I did this all myself. Sure there was a loan here and there, and I never missed a meal, and Uncle Fred gave me the IN on my internship, but...." Steve Jobs and The Woz, didn't grow up in Hell's Kitchen, and the garage inventions wouldn't have happened if they had to work in say a parent's restaurant to keep the family afloat. They had the luxury of free time screwing around in the burbs that some do not. Show me the thousands of immigrant success stories with single parents and no surviving relatives, without any family or outside assistance at all, and managed to overcome that and become billionaires. I'm not saying there aren't any, but they are fewer than you imagine.

The Horatio Alger myth is IMO a destructive America drug. The man who wrote it, was a known pederast who like to write bouncy little books seductive to boys. Maybe you should examine basing your philosophies around the author whose first work was Ragged Dick.

Vicente says

However if he'd had to pay the bills, or quit high school to get a job, none of that would have happened

And so what? This is just an example of the randomness of circumstances and impossible number of variables among a country of 300 plus million people representing every nationality that ever existed. Steve Jobs was wealthy beyond measure, but his wealth could only buy him 56 years--how is that fair when some schlub who plodded for 40 years at minimum pay but was entirely happy with his lot in life and may live into his mid-90's and die in his own bed instead of being sick for years as Jobs was. No government or entity of the intellegentsia can somehow make everything equal out. What may seem overwhelmingly just to one person may to another seem like the most outrageously unfair resolution imaginable.

P N Dr Lo R says

What may seem overwhelmingly just to one person may to another seem like the most outrageously unfair resolution imaginable.

My point, in case you missed it, is that many people who attribute ALL their success to hard work and ruggedness, were just lucky.

Hard work may be a factor, but IMO it's not the dominant one. It doesn't matter how hard you work, if it's digging ditches. It doesn't matter how skilled you are, if your skill is the delicate job of pediatric cardiosurgery you STILL will never be wealthy. It doesn't matter if you were the first one with a workable Big Idea, if some patent troll got a vague claim on your class of idea first you are never going to get wealthy off it.

A forgotten aspect by those who reference Horatio Alger, is that it often wasn't the hard work that brought the boy The Good Life(tm). it was some brave act that brought them to the attention of a wealthy man. This worldly older man might take the plucky young man into his home or under his wing. His rags-to-riches seems contingent upon being the lucky Dick Grayson to catch Bruce Wayne's eye just when he needs a new Robin, and there's only so many of those openings. I think you can see where a pederast might want to write this fantasy repeatedly, and young boys might find it seductive. However for adults to regard this as reality, I find it revolting.

Horatio Alger wrote works of fiction. Essentially, he repeated Male Cinderella about a hundred times with backdrop changes. It is a Gilded Age propaganda artifact, that has unfortunately slipped into adult dogma.

Perhaps if they switched from lead acid to lithium ion??

Heraclitusstudent says

People with skills get more income because they are rare. So every loser out there got skills, the wages for skilled people would collapse to where these people are now.

In other words, their wage just reflects where they rank in capacity to learn compared to other people.

And you can't fix that by learning more capacity to learn

Then the fix to this is to tax technology.
The roofer that uses a nail gun must pay 2 cents per nail more than the hammer wielder...to save the bicep building health clubs...
The texter must be taxed the price of a stamp for each text....to save the post office grunts...
Cell phone data speeds must be governed down to 28.8K to save the landline oligarchies...
FSBO must be banned...to save the Realtors....

Heraclitusstudent says

The result is that, in spite of being technically able to produce everything everyone needs, we just write off a large part of the population and consign them to poverty. This is bad not only for the poor, this shrinks the overall pie. And this is not because we are not efficient enough on production side, or because people are unable to work for low wages. It's the exact opposite reasons: because we produce increasingly efficiently, because people work for low wages or are unemployed, and because as a result we reduced consumption.

So no I don't think it's a zero-sum game, but I do believe we reached the point where everything you propose in fact shrinks the pie, rather than increase it.

Heraclitusstudent says

I would say black women, if you are going to be a single parent, do yourself a favor and visit a sperm bank, choose a white donor.

At least discrimination will be less.

Not very morally appealing maybe, but practical.

Jesus, do you think that most single moms wanted to be single moms? I don't know what percentage wanted to get pregnant, but if they did want to get pregnant, they were probably hoping to stay with the father. Then again, I don't personally know any women who got preggers out of wedlock, so I'm guessing as to motivation.

YesYNot says

Jesus, do you think that most single moms wanted to be single moms? I don't know what percentage wanted to get pregnant, but if they did want to get pregnant, they were probably hoping to stay with the father. Then again, I don't personally know any women who got preggers out of wedlock, so I'm guessing as to motivation.

Because... how to *not* get pregnant is like rocket science, and the fathers, well... all look like so smart and dependable that you would have their kids before getting married.

I guess nature is running the show and you can't stop it.
Genes favor those who reproduce and in that goal, a great practical intelligence is more an impediment than anything else.

SoftShell says

The roofer that uses a nail gun must pay 2 cents per nail more than the hammer wielder...to save the bicep building health clubs...

No, not to save the bicep building health clubs.... To finance those people that become obsolete.
Sooner or later we will all fall into that category.

Vicente says

Hard work, is about the least likely way to get you anywhere in this country

File this under, "Things that Losers Say."

Vicente says

No, but it's not the dominant factor that you imagine.

Bullshit, what is the benchmark you are measuring from. Cuz from where I sit that is backwards.