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NPR Right Now: Capitialism destroys free market and raises health care costs


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2015 Dec 15, 3:30pm   42,140 views  151 comments

by Dan8267   ➕follow (4)   💰tip   ignore  

http://wlrn.org/topic/radio
Market Place

Turns out that the cost of health care is around five times as much in Oregon where hospitals have monopoly than in regions they don't. And it's not due to cost of living or better care. It is entirely due to bargaining power. The actual numbers in negotiations have been published and they indisputably prove that without regulation, big health care screws over the people and milk them for everything they can get. Wow, this is such a surprise. Capitalism without regulation serves the owner class, not the other 99% of society.

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1   Tenpoundbass   2015 Dec 15, 3:53pm  

This ought to be good...

So what does create free markets and lowers health care costs?

2   indigenous   2015 Dec 15, 4:13pm  

You could fit everything you know about economics on the head of a pin.

3   Entitlemented   2015 Dec 15, 4:21pm  

Competition creates high quality and low prices. Monopolies in either the private sector and of the public sector result in low quality, bad management, set pricing, fraud, and other ills.

4   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Dec 15, 4:42pm  

The power of single paying:

Let's take an example of how these low costs work. In Denver, where I live, if you get an MRI of your neck region it's $1,200, and the doctor we visited in Japan says he gets $98 for an MRI. So how do you do that?

Well, in 2002 the government says that the MRIs, we are paying too much, so in order to be within the total budget, we will cut them by 35 percent.

If I'm a doctor, why don't I say, "I'm not going to do them; it's not enough money"?

You forgot that we have only one payment system. So if you want to do your MRIs, unless you can get private-pay patients, which is almost impossible in Japan, you go out of business. ...


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/interviews/ikegami.html

Siemens and other makers of these machines pay kickbacks to hospitals to adopt the machines - and I suspect that insurance companies have interesting relationships with lab, MRI, etc. providers.

5   zzyzzx   2015 Dec 15, 5:58pm  

First off, NPR is hardly an unbiased source. It's an extremely liberal source. Second, unless we have upfront pricing, there is no free market in health care. I offer Lasek Surgery as an example of something in the medical field where it's a free market and the costs have come down over the years.

6   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Dec 15, 6:11pm  

zzyzzx says

First off, NPR is hardly an unbiased source. It's an extremely liberal source. Second, unless we have upfront pricing, there is no free market in health care. I offer Lasek Surgery as an example of something in the medical field where it's a free market and the costs have come down over the years.

The person being interviewed is Japan's Top Health Economist explaining how Japan's system works: Government, Companies and Employees pay equal thirds a set premium, and all costs are negotiated down to the last degree by government for ALL providers. They pay by each square inch of stitches, regardless of what hospital or doctor performed it.

There will never be upfront pricing in the USA. Insurance Companies, Doctors, and Hospitals regard medical pricing as something secretive, the basis of their strategy and power.

While NPR could ask leading questions, there's absolutely no doubt when it comes to better outcomes at nearly half the cost, Japan KO's America's system in round one.

7   indigenous   2015 Dec 15, 6:14pm  

thunderlips11 says

absolutely no doubt when it comes to outcomes and costs, Japan KO's America's system in round one.

Splain me?

8   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Dec 15, 6:15pm  

Read the link. Japan spends about 8% of GDP on health care, we spend about 16%. Pretty much every major health indicator in Japan is superior to that of the US. From Surgery Outcomes to Cancer Death Rates.

You'll go on to read that in the year before the interview took place - I guess 2006 - Japan's health care spending went up one tenth of one percent: 0.1%. Despite an aging and demographic situation much worse than the United States.

Think of all the brokers that don't need to be paid a commission... all the accounting work to adjust between upteen different insurance plans offered by an assortment of different insurance companies... the reduced need for marketing.

And, the percentage of private hospitals in Japan is higher than in the USA.

9   anotheraccount   2015 Dec 15, 6:25pm  

thunderlips11 says

Read the link. Japan spends about 8% of GDP on health care, we spend about 16%. Pretty much every major health indicator in Japan is superior to that of the US. From Surgery Outcomes to Cancer Death Rates.

It's not all healthcare. Japanese eat better.

10   Dan8267   2015 Dec 15, 8:03pm  

thunderlips11 says

The power of single paying:

Yep, capitalism isn't the only system that has markets, free or otherwise, or commerce.

11   curious2   2015 Dec 15, 8:27pm  

Lemon socialist Obamneycare raises costs even further, as every promised cost reduction either proves either illusory to begin with or gets repealed, predictably:

"A push now under way in Congress to defer or repeal the so-called Cadillac tax is the biggest legislative threat the Affordable Care Act has faced in the past five years. And, weirdly, the lawmakers to blame are Democrats," Orszag wrote in a Bloomberg View column.
***
"Economists and deficit hawks favor the Cadillac tax, as it is projected to raise revenue and lower overall health costs. But it is reviled by just about everyone else — especially labor unions, which represent a major Democratic constituency. It has crept into the presidential campaign, as both top Democratic contenders — Clinton and Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vermont) — have called for its repeal.""

The legislation was never about improving public health nor reducing costs. It was always about enabling the entrenched players to hijack the reformers' momentum and channel it into further revenue maximization. Life expectancy has stagnated for three years, while costs have continued to increase higher than anywhere else on earth, including scores of countries where people live longer. (Formerly dozens of countries had longer lives and lower costs, now scores of countries do.) "One side gets the music, the other side gets the action."

12   indigenous   2015 Dec 15, 8:30pm  

They have in effect a government plan. The better idea would be to get government out of healthcare. The problems we have are from the government being in healthcare through medicare and now the ACA and through pharmaceuticals. Additionally by not allowing interstate competition. Z mentioned Lasek which is an example of the free market at work. Someone else mentioned monopoly, monopolies ONLY exist through government.

13   Dan8267   2015 Dec 15, 8:40pm  

indigenous says

Someone else mentioned monopoly, monopolies ONLY exist through government.

Tell that to De Beers.

14   indigenous   2015 Dec 15, 8:46pm  

Dan8267 says

Tell that to De Beers.

They had the monopoly through cronyism in the GOVERNMENT , & BTW they don't have one anymore.

15   Dan8267   2015 Dec 15, 9:02pm  

De Beers is a private cartel, not a government imposed one like the phone or cable companies. If you are trying to make the point that big business bribes government and corrupts it, then, true to that.

16   indigenous   2015 Dec 15, 9:25pm  

No if you read up on it De Beers built their monopoly by holding a monopoly on the mines through the local governments.

17   bob2356   2015 Dec 15, 9:28pm  

zzyzzx says

I offer Lasek Surgery as an example of something in the medical field where it's a free market and the costs have come down over the years.

Really? That's not what the lasik institute says. Average cost today is 2500 per eye, not much if any less than 1990's when first approved. Prices have actually been steadily rising for the last 10 years. http://www.lasik.com/articles/how-much-is-lasik/ https://www.qualsight.com/how-much-is-lasik http://www.drmotwani.com/lasik-explained/ It's a good myth though. I would think by now you would know that advertised price and actual cost aren't always the same thing.

There is an interesting company out there called vitals smartshopper which will shop around for the best price and get you a kickback from the insurance company if you go with a cheaper procedure. Only in a couple states so far. https://www.vitalssmartshopper.com/Login?ReturnUrl=%2F

18   Dan8267   2015 Dec 15, 9:29pm  

indigenous says

No if you read up on it De Beers built their monopoly by holding a monopoly on the mines through the local governments.

All monopolies are created by capitalists buying out politicians. That doesn't make government the problem. It makes capitalism the problem.

It is impossible to run a society without government. It is quite possible to run a society and a successful economy with commerce and free markets without capitalism.

In fact, the De Beers monopoly could only be broken by enforcing the very anti-trust laws that Reagan had destroyed.

19   indigenous   2015 Dec 15, 9:33pm  

Dan8267 says

In fact, the De Beers monopoly could only be broken by enforcing the very anti-trust laws that Reagan had destroyed.

I read that it was because of finding diamonds elsewhere and public disapproval of blood diamonds and conflict diamonds.

Dan8267 says

It is quite possible to run a society and a successful economy with commerce and free markets without capitalism.

Prove it.

20   bob2356   2015 Dec 15, 9:35pm  

indigenous says

No if you read up on it De Beers built their monopoly by holding a monopoly on the mines through the local governments.

It's true because I feel it should be true rides again. I gave you extensive documentation showing this to be false yet you continue to flog it. Sad really.

21   indigenous   2015 Dec 15, 9:37pm  

bob2356 says

It's true because I feel it should be true rides again. I gave you extensive documentation showing this to be false yet you continue to flog it. Sad really.

I remember going through this and found information that they did this through government manipulation. But of course you do not remember that part as only you know the right answers... sad really...

22   Dan8267   2015 Dec 15, 9:38pm  

indigenous says

Dan8267 says

It is quite possible to run a society and a successful economy with commerce and free markets without capitalism.

Prove it.

Gladly. Give me the fiat power to implement my solutions.

23   indigenous   2015 Dec 15, 9:41pm  

Dan8267 says

Gladly. Give me the fiat power to implement my solutions.

How about North Korea or East Germany?

24   Dan8267   2015 Dec 15, 9:45pm  

If you think that communism is the one and only alternative to capitalism, you are an idiot whose opinion counts for shit. There are an infinite number of possible economic systems, not just communism and capitalism. And out of this infinite set, an infinite subset uses commerce and markets, neither of which is intrinsic or unique to capitalism.

25   indigenous   2015 Dec 15, 9:48pm  

Dan8267 says

There are an infinite number of possible economic systems

Regale us so as to prove you are not the idiot.

26   bob2356   2015 Dec 15, 9:49pm  

Dan8267 says

In fact, the De Beers monopoly could only be broken by enforcing the very anti-trust laws that Reagan had destroyed.

De Beers lost their monopoly because the soviet union collapsed and mines in russia started selling directly to the market. Argyle mine in australia, the largest diamond mine at the time, followed suit then the big canadian mines started selling directly also. De Beers tried to buy on the secondary market but couldn't afford the price. De Beers went from 90% market share to below 60% market share in the 90's. Anti trust laws were not a factor. The anti trust lawsuit was filed in 2001 and was finally ruled on in 2012., De Beers market share was down to 35% by then. http://www.kitco.com/ind/Zimnisky/2013-06-06-A-Diamond-Market-No-Longer-Controlled-By-De-Beers.html

27   indigenous   2015 Dec 15, 9:52pm  

bob2356 says

Anti trust laws were not a factor.

What do you know Dan

28   Dan8267   2015 Dec 15, 9:58pm  

indigenous says

Regale us

And what proof would you consider sufficient to contradict your religion?

29   indigenous   2015 Dec 15, 9:59pm  

Here is an excerpt from an article:

Hart said that De Beers first courted colonial rulers and then their African successors. Gun-toting mercenaries defended its empire.

http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/diamonds/mystique1.html

30   bob2356   2015 Dec 15, 9:59pm  

indigenous says

I remember going through this and found information that they did this through government manipulation. But of course you do not remember that part as only you know the right answers

I remember quite clearly. Your "information" was a bunch of mises opinion stuff backed up by nothing other than it's true because I feel it should be true. Sad really.

31   indigenous   2015 Dec 15, 10:00pm  

Dan8267 says

And what proof would you consider sufficient to contradict your religion?

You mean the facts. An example of what you are talking about.

32   indigenous   2015 Dec 15, 10:01pm  

bob2356 says

I remember quite clearly.

Not that I see of... sad really

33   bob2356   2015 Dec 15, 10:04pm  

indigenous says

Hart said that De Beers first courted colonial rulers and then their African successors. Gun-toting mercenaries defended its empire.

Is this some kind of joke? He courted? Great documentation. One sentence of he said. I rest my case.

34   Dan8267   2015 Dec 15, 10:05pm  

indigenous says

Dan8267 says

And what proof would you consider sufficient to contradict your religion?

You mean the facts. An example of what you are talking about.

No, I mean what specifically would it take to convince you that capitalism is flawed and is not the best possible economic system. I have presented facts up the wazoo in many threads demonstrating the utter failure of capitalism to solve many specific problems. The NPR radio broadcast also presented indisputable, specific facts that show unquestionably that capitalism caused a five-fold increase in the cost of health care. Facts clearly are not enough to convince you to abandon your religion.

So what specifically would it take to get you to accept that capitalism could be replaced with a much better economic system?

35   indigenous   2015 Dec 15, 10:08pm  

Dan8267 says

Facts clearly are not enough to convince you to abandon your religion.

Show me the facts spare me the blather

36   indigenous   2015 Dec 15, 10:09pm  

bob2356 says

Is this some kind of joke? He courted? Great documentation. One sentence of he said. I rest my case.

So you think they did it by above board means?

37   Dan8267   2015 Dec 15, 10:25pm  

indigenous says

Show me the facts spare me the blather

Fact. Capitalism has had over half a century to solve the health care problem. It failed.

Fact. Capitalism creates war profiteering which creates wars and instability. Capitalism works against ending terrorism and creating world peace.

Fact. Capitalism has had a century to cure cancer, but treating cancer is much more profitable.

Fact. Capitalism has had several centuries to solve unemployment. Capitalism has consistently failed to fully utilize the productivity of all people willing and able to perform useful work.

Fact. Capitalism has had several centuries to solve the problem of economic bubbles and busts, the so-called business cycle. It has epically failed.

Fact. Capitalism has failed to address the corruption and greed in the financial industry that has so far caused two great depressions and many smaller ones.

Fact. Capitalism has failed to prevent the pollution of the air and oceans and climate change.

Fact. Capitalism has failed to prevent over-fishing.

Fact. Capitalism has failed to move society off of fossil fuels and onto clean, renewable energy that can be sustained.

Fact. Capitalism has failed to provide a stable currency whose value is a constant store of purchasing power.

Fact. Capitalism caused the problem that 1% of the population controls 99% of the wealth. That 1% did not produce 99% of the wealth.

I could go on for hours, but somehow I doubt any of these facts mean shit to you or would convince you of the failings of capitalism.

38   bob2356   2015 Dec 15, 10:34pm  

indigenous says

bob2356 says

Is this some kind of joke? He courted? Great documentation. One sentence of he said. I rest my case.

So you think they did it by above board means?

Who is they? Cecil Rhoades bought up the mining rights/mines and formed the De Beers company. Some from miners/mining companies, some from tribal chiefs, some from colonial governments. I've got 2 extensively researched books (Colonial South Africa the Origins of the Racial Order and Becoming Zimbabwe) on my bookshelf that go over this in detail. You do realize that's how extractive industries work don't you? You buy the rights from the owners or government then drill/dig. Been going on for thousands of years, still going on today. Is it above board means in your odd libertarian world? I have no clue.

39   indigenous   2015 Dec 16, 3:40am  

Dan8267 says

Fact. Capitalism has had over half a century to solve the health care problem. It failed.

The life span of it's patients would indicate otherwise, unless you are saying government created the medical benefits?

Dan8267 says

Fact. Capitalism creates war profiteering which creates wars and instability. Capitalism works against ending terrorism and creating world peace.

Who starts the wars?

Dan8267 says

Fact. Capitalism has had a century to cure cancer, but treating cancer is much more profitable.

The free market has made a lot of progress too.

Dan8267 says

Fact. Capitalism has had several centuries to solve the problem of economic bubbles and busts, the so-called business cycle. It has epically failed.

The meddling with the business cycle is the very cause of the bubbles we are seeing. The business cycle is the very process that keeps the economy healthy.

Dan8267 says

act. Capitalism has failed to address the corruption and greed in the financial industry that has so far caused two great depressions and many smaller ones.

If fact the only real ethics in the economy is the free market, because a business has to satisfy a need better than the competition or it goes out of business. The Great Depression was caused by an oversupply of money in the 20s, this was the sole purview of the Federal Bank.

Dan8267 says

Fact. Capitalism has failed to prevent the pollution of the air and oceans and climate change.

This is the problem with the tragedy of the commons, the solution would be to put it under private ownership.

Dan8267 says

Fact. Capitalism has failed to move society off of fossil fuels and onto clean, renewable energy that can be sustained.

Same

Any advances in this area have come from the private sector,. the simple fact is that gasoline is the most efficient way to power a vehicle. The government meddling in this area has not worked out well e.g. Solyndra and a good candidate to short Tesla.

Dan8267 says

Fact. Capitalism has failed to provide a stable currency whose value is a constant store of purchasing power.

That would be the gold standard, which we are taken off of by FDR and Nixon.

Dan8267 says

Fact. Capitalism caused the problem that 1% of the population controls 99% of the wealth. That 1% did not produce 99% of the wealth.

Wealth inequality has been the greatest when the government has intervened the most which are now and the late 1920s.

Dan8267 says

I could go on for hours, but somehow I doubt any of these facts mean shit to you or would convince you of the failings of capitalism.

I'm sure you could... You are simply regurgitating leftest crap.

40   indigenous   2015 Dec 16, 3:42am  

bob2356 says

You do realize that's how extractive industries work don't you?

So then the Blood Diamonds would be a standard commodity?

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