« prev   random   next »

7
0

Diversity harms societies, lowers mutual trust

By someone else following x   2016 Apr 4, 11:48am 16,058 views   67 comments   watch   nsfw   quote     share    


http://archive.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/

From multicultural festivals to pronouncements from political leaders, the message is the same: our differences make us stronger. But a massive new study, based on detailed interviews of nearly 30,000 people across America, has concluded just the opposite. Harvard political scientist Robert Putnam -- famous for "Bowling Alone," his 2000 book on declining civic engagement -- has found that the greater the diversity in a community, the fewer people vote and the less they volunteer, the less they give to charity and work on community projects. In the most diverse communities, neighbors trust one another about half as much as...

#diversity

« First    « Previous    Comments 28 - 67 of 67    Last »

28   FortWayne   ignore (4)   2016 May 18, 9:57pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote   flag        

tatupu70 says

FortWayne says

Diversity works fine until liberals come in and start fixing it, then it all goes to shit.

I agree--as long as the blacks, Micks, Chinamen, Pollocks, etc. know their place, things run swell.

Oh boy another liberal race card used as an instant GOTO, what else is new.

29   HonkpilledMaster   ignore (5)   2016 May 18, 10:05pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

HydroCabron says

Guess what? Just like the Irish and Italians whose descendants now live in the burbs, are considered White, could lead much less join the KKK, and vote Republican, so too will the Hispanics in 20 years.

30   bob2356   ignore (4)   2016 May 19, 5:04am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

tatupu70 says

I agree--as long as the blacks, Micks, Chinamen, Pollocks, etc. know their place, things run swell.

You forgot the krauts, wops, and catholics.

31   BlueSardine   ignore (2)   2016 May 19, 6:08am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Don't forget the Honkees...old fuckers that they are...

bob2356 says

tatupu70 says

I agree--as long as the blacks, Micks, Chinamen, Pollocks, etc. know their place, things run swell.

You forgot the krauts, wops, and catholics.

32   CovfefeButDeadly   ignore (5)   2016 Aug 9, 8:10am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

End illegal immigration, track people on visas and arrest them when they fail to report an address change or if they overstay their visa, and I'm pretty sure the problems mostly end.

I grew up on a street where I was the only white kid. Everyone else was asian(mostly Japanese descent) or Hispanic. Everyone got together every 4th for a block party. I grew up with the other kids and went to school with them. Race really wasn't ever an issue because everyone was simply American. Maybe I'm a simpleton, but I don't think that race has much to do with it, although culture does. So even though there was a mix of religions and ethnic backgrounds, everyone shared American culture.

33   MMR   ignore (0)   2016 Aug 9, 8:29am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

tatupu70 says

Pollocks,

Is that like Jackson Pollock? Oh, you mean POLACK

Pollock rhymes with bollock

34   MMR   ignore (0)   2016 Aug 9, 8:40am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

anonymous says

We suspect that blacks and Latinos also report lower trust for other reasons, including continuing discrimination, victimization by the police and hostile political rhetoric.

And the most obvious one that was missed, which is black on black crime. That has little to do worn hostile political rhetoric or police victimization and is only indirectly related to discrimination at best.

35   Dan8267   ignore (3)   2016 Aug 9, 8:58am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

FortWayne says

Diversity is good if people want to become part of American culture.

There is no single American culture as made clear by the cowboy vs hippie culture war and many others. Nor need there be. The only cultural values that should be universal are Western, not American, values of liberty, democracy, equality under law, and transparency in government.

FortWayne says

Why would someone care for their neighbor if they have nothing in common and have completely different goals.

Morality. It's your god who demands that you care about every single one of your neighbors as if they are your brother. That's kind of the entire point of Christianity from Genesis saying you are your brothers keeper to Jesus saying love your neighbor as yourself.

Once again the atheist has to school Christians on Jesus's teachings. So much for Christianity influencing people to be good.

FortWayne says

Diversity works fine until liberals come in and start fixing it, then it all goes to shit.

Another vague accusation that Fort Wayne will not back up with a specific example.

dodgerfanjohn says

End illegal immigration

Easy to do. Just make all immigration legal and take off quotas. What's that? You don't want to do that? Oh, so it's not illegal immigration that you oppose; it's actually immigration you oppose. That would be fine if you had the balls to be intellectually honest, but you don't.

The immigration issue isn't about not documenting immigrants. We live in the god damn information age. Every immigrant is documented by the NSA and Google merely by having a phone, email address, or bank account. It's nearly impossible today to not be documented in just about every freaking act you do including wacking off behind that tree. So immigration complaints have nothing to do with documenting immigrants or having them go through a process. Any process we want to impose can easily be done in minutes using computers rather than years unless the entire purpose of that process is to delay or decrease immigration. And if that's the case, let's be honest about it and actually discuss how much net immigration we want and what exactly is the criteria for immigrants we want. Anything less is bullshit.

I have no problem stating that I want immigrants to be intelligent, educated, and liberal. And yes, being liberal should be a requirement of immigrating to any western nation. Western civilization is founded on liberal principles and if a person disagrees with democracy, liberty, equality under law, etc. then they cannot be assimilated into our society. Hell, we should even require that people are not affiliated with any religion and fully accept science and reject all supernatural nonsense (superstitions). We need people who are intelligent, rational, and believe in liberty.

36   HEY YOU   ignore (7)   2016 Aug 9, 9:19am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

If you are not a native American get out of the U.S.
Take your diversity somewhere else.

37   CovfefeButDeadly   ignore (5)   2016 Aug 14, 10:52am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

purchasecialis says

Is there any way you may take away me from that service?

Kill yourself?

38   Rew   ignore (0)   2016 Aug 17, 9:57am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

HydroCabron says

I suppose Khan, a moderate Muslim, didn't do enough to speak out against extremists, or something.

In my best Trump voice: "These people, these people, they brought us zero ... zero, zip, nada ... literally. You can look it up."

#mathjokesneverwork

40   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 29, 5:38pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Rew says
In my best Trump voice: "These people, these people, they brought us zero ... zero, zip, nada ... literally. You can look it up."


@Rew it's a good joke, but it's not true. The Hindus invented zero:

"Zero and its operation are first defined by [Hindu astronomer and mathematician] Brahmagupta in 628," said Gobets. He developed a symbol for zero: a dot underneath numbers. "But he, too, does not claim to have invented zero, which presumably must have been around for some time," Gobets added.


https://www.livescience.com/27853-who-invented-zero.html
41   FortWayneIndiana   ignore (4)   2018 Nov 29, 5:54pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

diversity stops working when it goes too far. because people get into groups and start demanding that their group be in charge.

it is bewildering that we have laws that reduce funding for schools with white kids, while increase funding for schools with non white kids. There's your diversity, it's still human nature to get your group to the top at the expense of the other.
43   HonkpilledMaster   ignore (5)   2018 Nov 29, 6:25pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Too little diversity can lead to purity spirals (huge conflict over extremely petty issues), ossification, and the inability to adapt with enough timeliness or strength if conditions DO change.

But too much diversity, and little can be agreed upon, leaving vulnerability to breakdown. Sociologists (a la Putnam) have long documented that once a minority approaches 15-20% in an urban area, all trust - not just between the majority and minority groups, but within both groups, as well as between individuals and institutions, etc. - take a nose dive.

The other problem with diversity is that by every objective and quantifiable standard, Western CIvilization is both vastly superior to , with a very different history and trajectory from, Islamic and Black African civilizations. It is both less obviously superior nor historically different from, Asian civilization. Hispanic Civilization is really a cadet branch of Western Civ in most ways, albeit a very narrow Iberian branch off.

Unsurprisingly, Asian and Hispanic migrants tend to be little different than European migrants in their ease of accommodation. Black Africans and Arabs are difficult to assimilate. Especially Black Muslims like Somalians and Eritreans.

Unfortunately, the demonstrably false cultural relativist ideas popular and enforced by unsanctioned "judicial philosophy" (ie Peer Pressure among the wrongly educated) makes it impossible to manage immigration by region or culture.

We would literally lose nothing in a Muslim Ban, or at least a restriction to only very secularized, already English Speaking, already Western Educated individuals from those lands (ie a trained Doctor from Khartoum whose grandfather served in the British Army, whose father was an official in the Foreign Ministry who regularly dealt with Europeans, who himself spoke English in the home AND in School, whose connection to Islam is tenuous and best described as "MINO")
44   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 29, 7:52pm   ↑ like (4)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I agree that some diversity is a good thing. You get exposed to new ideas, new ways of doing things, etc.

But there needs to be a single main dominant culture (I did not say race) for a country to remain a country.

I posted a link to some study by an economist recently which showed there is actually an optimum level of diversity for maximum economic progress and minimum civil wars. Latin America was given as an example area with too little diversity, and Africa as an example area of too much diversity. That's also interesting because it mirrors the actual genetic and linguistic diversity of those places.
45   BayArea   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 29, 9:47pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

When you go to countries without diversity, people give up their seat to elderly on buses/trains, step in to break up public fights, etc

In countries with diversity, people stay seated and pull out their cell phone cameras when they see a physical dispute.
46   Herdingcats   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 30, 6:23am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-diversity-create-distrust/
Turns out some people think Putnam was wrong.

Sociologists Maria Abascal, of Princeton University, and Delia Baldassari, of New York University, published a paper late last year which refutes Putnam’s conclusions. After reanalyzing the same dataset used by Putnam, Abascal and Baldassari asserted that when it comes to distrust and diversity, most of the distrust is expressed by Whites who feel uncomfortable living amongst racial minorities. In other words, greater distrust may stem from prejudice rather than from diversity per se. Therefore, Putnam’s conclusion that racial diversity leads to less altruism and cooperation amongst neighbors was incorrect. If there is a downside to diversity, it has less to do with the behavior of racial minorities and more to do with how Whites feel when living amongst non-Whites
47   CBOEtrader   ignore (5)   2018 Nov 30, 6:27am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
Sociologists Maria Abascal, of Princeton University, and Delia Baldassari, of New York University, published a paper late last year which refutes Putnam’s conclusions. After reanalyzing the same dataset used by Putnam, Abascal and Baldassari asserted that when it comes to distrust and diversity, most of the distrust is expressed by Whites who feel uncomfortable living amongst racial minorities. In other words, greater distrust may stem from prejudice rather than from diversity per se. Therefore, Putnam’s conclusion that racial diversity leads to less altruism and cooperation amongst neighbors was incorrect. If there is a downside to diversity, it has less to do with the behavior of racial minorities and more to do with how Whites feel when living amongst non-Whites


This smacks of flawed ideology rather than scientific rigor.
48   CBOEtrader   ignore (5)   2018 Nov 30, 6:29am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
Unsurprisingly, Asian and Hispanic migrants tend to be little different than European migrants in their ease of accommodation. Black Africans and Arabs are difficult to assimilate. Especially Black Muslims like Somalians and Eritreans.


Why is this unsurprising though? Indian-Americans have the highest per capita income, yet you'd be hard pressed to find cultures more unique to ours than India.
49   Herdingcats   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 30, 6:31am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
This smacks of flawed ideology rather than scientific rigor.


Yet they used the same data set.
50   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 30, 6:48am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

No way. The graphs were painfully clear. Diversity was directly negatively correlated with all forms of civic engagement.

Reminds me of the "scientists" who claim there is no race by being overly vague and technical in their definition of race.
51   6rdB   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 30, 7:04am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
Turns out some people think Putnam was wrong.

Sociologists Maria Abascal, of Princeton University, and Delia Baldassari, of New York University, published a paper late last year which refutes Putnam’s conclusions. After reanalyzing the same dataset used by Putnam, Abascal and Baldassari asserted that when it comes to distrust and diversity, most of the distrust is expressed by Whites who feel uncomfortable living amongst racial minorities. In other words, greater distrust may stem from prejudice rather than from diversity per se. Therefore, Putnam’s conclusion that racial diversity leads to less altruism and cooperation amongst neighbors was incorrect. If there is a downside to diversity, it has less to do with the behavior of racial minorities and more to do with how Whites feel when living amongst non-Whites

I do not agree with Patrick's idea that diversity is inherently bad - we can remember that US in 1800's was rather diverse - it had nations living side by side which at the same time were at each other's throats in Europe and at the same time in US they were prospering and building a rich country - but this idea of Abascal that WHITES BAD BECAUSE RACIST ORANGE MAN, MINORITIES GOOD, OPPRESSED BY WHITES sounds just like typical NPC. Whites are undoubtedly the least raycist of all races now. I know quite a few TX Vietnamese - how they talk among themselves is not acceptable in white society - children get shunned if they date black people, Hispanics are not much better - they are not PC and actually say what they think etc.
52   6rdB   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 30, 7:06am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
No way. The graphs were painfully clear. Diversity was directly negatively correlated with all forms of civic engagement.

I wonder how one defines "civic engagement" and if all of "civic engagement" is actually good. SJW'ism also can probably be called civic engagement.
53   Herdingcats   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 30, 7:10am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

d6rB says
I do not agree with Patrick's idea that diversity is inherently bad


Me either. What country is more diverse than the United States of America? If diversity was nobody would want to immigrate to this country.
54   6rdB   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 30, 7:11am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
most of the distrust is expressed by Whites who feel uncomfortable living amongst racial minorities.


I thought it is the PC police who always claims that it is uncomfortable for minorities to live among white people. I am in a city that is so-called "minority-majority" and I do not feel uncomfortable. Neither do any of my friends. Furthermore, the city is perhaps one of the economically most vibrant in US despite high diversity, and has relatively low crime for a large city, which goes against Patrick's idea of diversity being inherently bad.
55   CBOEtrader   ignore (5)   2018 Nov 30, 7:31am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Herdingcats says
CBOEtrader says
This smacks of flawed ideology rather than scientific rigor.


Yet they used the same data set.


yes, you are emphasizing my point.

The study was done in a white majority country, and therefore those infected with this toxic ideology see that as evidence "to do with how Whites feel when living amongst non-Whites" . This is pure ideological dogma.
56   CBOEtrader   ignore (5)   2018 Nov 30, 7:38am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

d6rB says
Patrick's idea of diversity being inherently bad.


In a corporate culture, diversity of thought is GOOD as long as everyone shares the same corporate VISION.

Classic liberal values built on the writ of habeas corpus, freedom of speech, assumption of innocence, and equality under the law should be our shared American vision. If the vision of a classic liberal society is shared, then diversity is great. Jordan Peterson describes these Western cultural values as "nothing short of a miracle."

Unfortunately the cult of diversity wants to destroy these miracles of western culture. ^^ that is toxic diversity as opposed to diversity of though.
57   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 30, 8:13am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

d6rB says
I do not agree with Patrick's idea that diversity is inherently bad


Not always. Like that economist, I believe there is some relatively small level of diversity which is optimum. Not zero, but not large.
58   OccasionalCortex   ignore (3)   2018 Nov 30, 8:23am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Multiculturalism doesn't really work. See Austro-Hungarian Empire, former Yugoslavian Federation. Both had to come down hard to enforce it.

The Swiss Confederation works. And why? Because the cantons were recognized as being ethnically homogenous for the most part. The four or so big cities were the multicultural exception and even then were originally a mixing pot of Swiss ethnicities. Also, the cantons have most of the power and collect most of the tax revenues while having equal representation in the Swiss upper house, the Council of States. The CoS also votes along with the lower house to elect the executive branch.

There was a plan by the Austo-Hungarian heir Prince Karl to federalize the Empire along more equitable lines like how Switzerland was. But the Empire's defeat and forced dissolution at the end of WWI put the kabob on that.

The US needs to radically decentralize along these lines it if is to avoid Civil War 2 down the road. The Reds and Blues can not see eye to eye on many common things that Americans used to, so the Feds should devolve health care, welfare and many other functions to the Sates or interstate compacts of the States.
59   Goran_K   ignore (3)   2018 Nov 30, 8:40am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

MegaForce says
The US needs to radically decentralize along these lines it if is to avoid Civil War 2 down the road. The Reds and Blues can not see eye to eye on many common things that Americans used to, so the Feds should devolve health care, welfare and many other functions to the Sates or interstate compacts of the States.


Bingo. Let the states have it or let Civil War 2 happen and let one party reign supreme.
60   Quigley   ignore (0)   2018 Nov 30, 8:52am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

We can have multi-ethnic societies that work. I’d argue that America is quite diverse in this way. But multiculturalism on top of this makes for isolated groups within the country which neither understand nor trust each other and often find the ways and practices of the other groups annoying or laughable.
Which is why you have blacks vs Koreans, Latinos vs. blacks, And Japanese vs everyone.
61   CBOEtrader   ignore (5)   2018 Nov 30, 8:55am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

MegaForce says
The US needs to radically decentralize along these lines it if is to avoid Civil War 2 down the road. The Reds and Blues can not see eye to eye on many common things that Americans used to, so the Feds should devolve health care, welfare and many other functions to the Sates or interstate compacts of the States.


Decentralization is another core american liberal value that we have lost and/or dont agree on.

I would suspect this goes by party lines as well. Blue wants centralized control over everything, and Red wants state powers reaffirmed.
62   Goran_K   ignore (3)   2018 Nov 30, 9:19am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
I would suspect this goes by party lines as well. Blue wants centralized control over everything, and Red wants state powers reaffirmed.


Pretty much. Just look at the issue of abortion. A very clear party line on "federal vs state".
63   6rdB   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 30, 3:22pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
Blue wants centralized control over everything, and Red wants state powers reaffirmed.

Agree with characterization of Blue, disagree with Red. War on drugs example...
64   HonkpilledMaster   ignore (5)   2018 Nov 30, 3:34pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
But there needs to be a single main dominant culture (I did not say race) for a country to remain a country.


Yep, 80/20 is good, but that 20 has to be fractured itself (ie no one group more than 12-15% of the total).

Pareto Theory strikes again.
65   HonkpilledMaster   ignore (5)   2018 Nov 30, 3:41pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
This smacks of flawed ideology rather than scientific rigor.


Yep, especially when Putnum had a wave of disagreement and had 20-30 factors which he demonstrated as accounting for.

It doesn't explain why distrust emerges within the minority AND the majority both, as well as between them. Usually a minority group exhibits group unity if truly oppressed, rather than disunity.

This is part of the SJW/Multi Cult: "All problems are from Whites" attitude, which is not supported by worldwide historical experience (India, Israel, Russia prior to conversion of Siberia and Steppes, etc.)

Poland actually has a lot to teach the world about diversity. As the original Poland-Lithuanian Commonwealth, it survived ethnic and religious conflict because it was governed in a decentralized fashion. However, that was also it's undoing because Military Force was decentralized, so the Commonwealth was eventually conquered by enemies piecemeal.

Since a Lord in Volyhina didn't want to spend money and troops to defend Silesian border from Prussians; A Danzig Merchant didn't want to pay to defend Lvov from Cossacks or Austrians.

The second time Poland tried to create a Centralized version of the Commonwealth, but this failed for the opposite reason. Catholic Polonization of parts of Ukraine + Belorussia, areas of Orthodox, Cyrillic-using people, caused independence movements. Also many areas had been under Soviet Communist control briefly and large numbers of Communists.

By the time the Poles recognized that the Grand Marshall was right, and Polonization would have to be soft rather than "hard", there wasn't enough time left before Hitler invaded.
66   CBOEtrader   ignore (5)   2018 Nov 30, 3:44pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
This is part of the SJW/Multi Cult: "All problems are from Whites" attitude


It was the idiot whites who invented SJW culture, so perhaps I agree w the SJWs on something
67   CBOEtrader   ignore (5)   2018 Nov 30, 3:48pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
Since a Lord in Volyhina didn't want to spend money and troops to defend Silesian border from Prussians; A Danzig Merchant didn't want to pay to defend Lvov from Cossacks or Austrians.


Yeah I was contemplating what I considered Trumps biggest flaw : increasing the military size for "peace through strength".

Libertarians dont want a huge centralized armed force... but tbc, our centralized armed forces successfully defended the world against nazis and communists, so perhaps we should be grateful for a neccessary evil.

« First    « Previous    Comments 28 - 67 of 67    Last »


about   best comments   contact   one year ago   suggestions