patrick.net

Yes but they have free education, healthcare and retirement. That puts them in the top 10% by US standards.

Heraclitusstudent says

Yes but they have free education, healthcare and retirement. That puts them in the top 10% by US standards.

This was my first reaction. If you read the article, you will see that they claim to account for this. Not that I trust it was done right.

with better health care, longer life expectancy, better guaranteed retirement, better education, free college education...And a distribution of income that, even though the average may not be as high, leaves the median person much better off, and populations that are much happier than Americans.

Heraclitusstudent says

Yes but they have free education, healthcare and retirement. That puts them in the top 10% by US standards.

^^^^^^^^ Didn't read the article.

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

with better health care, longer life expectancy, better guaranteed retirement, better education, free college education...And a distribution of income that, even though the average may not be as high, leaves the median person much better off, and populations that are much happier than Americans.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Didn't read the article.

Straw Man says

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Didn't read the article.

Don't need to. I've visited both of these countries, and lived in Germany as a kid... But perhaps you don't understand the difference between mean and median?

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

free college education

We have coursera.org and thus, education is for the most part, approaching free. If ppl are too stupid to figure this out then they can go f'ck themselves.

Really, ppl go to university for the name and connections, otherwise, Harvard would be UMass/Cambridge, instead of the world's most prestige institution alongside Cambridge/Oxford.

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

Germany

The best thing about Germany are the FFKs, legalized brothels.

If American had 'em, the USA would probably be the greatest nation in the history of nations, bar none.

Rin says

The best thing about Germany are the FFKs, legalized brothels.

If American had 'em, the USA would probably be the greatest nation in the history of nations, bar none.

And offer tons of visas to Thai and Russians, to do the jobs Americans aren't willing to do!

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/07/08/migrants-driving-towns-debt/

Migrant Crisis Is Driving German Towns And Cities Into Debt

A study, entitled “Refugee Integration: Challenges for German Municipalities”, surveyed 300 of 1,554 cities and towns with more than 10,000 inhabitants. Given it only sampled 300, and that there are large numbers of migrants in towns with smaller populations, the Berlin Journal estimates the actual numbers of towns heading into debt to be much higher.

The Berlin Journal revealed that most towns surveyed have already had to absorb any additional debt for the migrant influx. This year, however, 29 per cent of the municipalities said they would outright be driven into debt by the migrants.

The cities and towns surveyed said the influx of migrants would send them into €1.1 billion of debt. They said by next year, the cost of migrants to these municipalities is likely to go up by €70 million.

The federal government pays German provinces €670 a month per migrant. Some federal states give towns and cities money for migrants. Others, like Bayern, leave towns and cities to foot the bill.

The report notes that unaccompanied minor migrants command huge costs. In May, Breitbart London reported that regional governments were spending over €2.7 million on 65,000 unaccompanied minor migrants.

The municipalities surveyed said that by the year’s end, they will lack accommodation for 464,000 migrants. The cities cited a number of reasons that they were not prepared to receive a huge influx of migrants. Among these was the lack of forecasting for the numbers of migrants arriving, and a lack of suitable premises for them to live in.

In Autumn last year only 78 cities and towns had housing for at least 1,000 migrants. Now, 187 places report having more than 1,000. To accommodate migrants, municipalities said they had to use newly built residential housing, private accommodation, equipment containers, and properties such as former schools and barracks.

Overall the municipalities surveyed said that so far they are accommodating 836,000 migrants.

I'd agree on Sweden, who has been letting in and handing out free shit to often hostile migrants for a long time. Sweden is not wealthy anymore at all, lots of poverty in the bigger cities, just visit Stockholm and there are homeless everywhere. Germany has been better off on average than the US, because of the difference between median and mean (as mentioned above). Also pretty much everything still works in Germany and the economy has been a powerhouse. However recent policy changes, letting in a flood of often hostile immigrants and providing handouts has put them under pressure, hence you see uprising in the general population. Tough call as of now, I'd put Germany and the US at even.

Meanwhile here in the real world over 3/5 of people in the US don't have $1000 in savings

http://www.fool.com/retirement/general/2016/03/28/62-of-americans-have-less-than-1000-in-savings-her.aspx

Incomes is one thing, but something is really rotten with the US economic picture.

http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/international/intinv/intinvnewsrelease.htm

$7.5T in collective debt and still digging the hole.

Sweden is at break-even now (NIIP as % GDP):

While Germany and the Netherlands are world-beaters:

Without question if I were entering as a newborn baby in 2016 -- of median intelligence, talent, and socio-economic position -- I'd pick to be the typical German or Swede over USAian.

Cuz the average person is pretty fucked here in the USA.

40 million people with student loan debt of $200-300/mo

https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics-2016/

A healthcare system half as efficient as the eurosocialist model

Our public transit system is a big "fuck-you-get-a-car" in most places.

Now, if you're in the top 10% financially, the US is the place to be vs. Sweden or Germany. Thing is, not everyone can be in the top 10%.

Oh, yeah, let's not forget retirement:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-typical-american-couple-has-only-5000-saved-for-retirement-2016-04-28

The average person only has Social Security, assuming the GOP doesn't BK it this decade or next. After all, the $2.7T in special treasuries it's been buying since 1983 isn't real money

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2015/10/27/3716562/boehner-budget-deal-social-security/

Housing is the key sector not really touched on by the Mises dude making that dodgy post. Generally the better a place is to live, the higher the housing costs are, and this holds for Sweden as well as Tennessee.

Germany is an outlier here, they have less home ownership but a cheaper housing market for some reason.

But if you don't own your own home in the USA, you're fucked too.

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2016/04/28/u-s-homeownership-rate-falls-again-nearing-a-48-year-low/

Mises guy probably didn't adjust for actual time worked, either.

Germany has 34 vacation days per year:

Straw Man says

The battle over the assumed success of European socialism continues. Many European countries like Sweden have gained a reputation as being very wealthy in spite of their highly regulated and taxed economies. From there, many assume that the rest of Europe is more or less similar, even if slightly poorer.

Typical mises bullshit. Since when has sweden gained a reputation for being very wealthy? Monaco is wealthy. Qatar is wealthy. Brunei is wealthy. Sweden? I don't think so. Only in mises. Who assumes the rest of europe is more or less similar? Is this a joke? Italy has been a basket case long before Garibaldi came back from Uruguay and actually made it a country. The Balkans have been a mess since Alexander the great died in the palace of Nebuchadnezzar II. Moldovia? Kosovo? Fuggedaboutit.

Europe is 50 different countries with 50 different societies and 50 different sets of societal values. Some aren't much above third world, some are very well off. Very well off on their own terms, not on terms dictated by American societal norms. Germany and the Scandinavian countries value a very egalitarian society. No 1% uber wealthy, very little desperate poor. No one other than the idiots at mises considers them very wealthy. They work a lot less the the US with less hours worked per week and 3 times as much vacation. They are willing to take a trade off materialism for lifestyle. They really don't value working themselves to death to shop till you drop in the american model.

I don't believe for a second that mises got the comparison correct, even if you are willing to buy the extremely unlikely prospect that mises set aside their strident self promotion of their libertarian fantasy world and actually did the research objectively. Yea right, that would be the first time in history mises has ever done anything objectively. There is no way to know what the ins and outs of a country are unless you actually live there and know exactly how the system works. It takes at least a year of living on the ground in a country, assuming you are fluent in the language, to know what is really going on. Slapping up a bunch of numbers from all different sources about countries you've never even set foot in and saying I'll adjust them around to make it right is just stupid. Other than making a political point (mises making a political point? who would have ever thought of that? so it ain't so joe) it is an utterly useless exercise.

Great post bob, sad but not surprising you got a dislike for it.

The main economic thesis in my life is of course 'all taxes come out of rents'. I'd like to think the high-tax high-service eurosocialist paradises (Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Sweden) give people more gov't services at less actual hit to their discretionary incomes, but as you say reality has a way of trumping theory so absent any good studies on this the best way to see if this is true would be to live in the countries for a good while.

I lived in Japan for 8 years and that gave me for a taste of the advantages and disadvantages we face here in the US.

For one, it is true if one lives in some Podunk town in a red state the cost of living can be quite low compared to e.g. Japan.

Good luck finding a job, schools, medical care, public transportation or anything outside of a Walmart and fast food, but it would be cheap.

I'm retiring next decade and am going to scout where to base myself for the last decades of my life.

I'd like to stay in the US, either in ~10,000sqft culdesac lot in a quiet corner of a decent city or up in the foothills somewhere (lakefront in Bellingham is still The Goal I guess), but ISTM every time we-the-people put conservatives in control here they just turn the screws on everyone and fuck things up.

Total debt to GDP ratio:

Conservatives are on record of wanting to eliminate PPACA and turn medicare into a voucher system. If & when they do that I'll be outta here in short order.

Economically we're not yet on an even keel here, the Miseans and the conservatives in general still want to make the ship list more, we're going to need more redistribution and government intervention in the economy, not less.

Too much of this country is still economically screwed, and we just can't keep using our DOD as a jobs program. Real DOD spending per worker:

Conservatives imagine the eurosocialists benefit from a low defense burden, but remove DOD spending from our economy and we'd crater instantly since so much of our economy is directly or indirectly dependent on this gravy train.

It'd be nice if we could replace this spending with more socially useful spending, but that's socialism and half this country has been indoctrinated to fear it.

Bellingham Bill says

Great post bob, sad but not surprising you got a dislike for it.

I fully expect to get a dislike from one of the mises brainwashed acolytes any time I point out that their cult doesn't make any sense at all in the real world. Every time you say gee show me are all the examples of how this works in real life, the only sound you hear is crickets chirping.

bob2356 says

Every time you say gee show me are all the examples of how this works in real life, the only sound you hear is crickets chirping.

Incorrect. They sound off heartily with all their axioms to grind.